Getting Serious About Game-Improvement

[Tony Covey MGS]

At last month's PGA Show I had a casual chat with TaylorMade's Tom Kroll (point of mentioning that to come) 

 

When I visited TaylorMade last August I played Torrey Pines with Kroll, Current Sr. Director of Product Creation (formerly irons, now metalwoods) Brian Bazzel, and the PR Guy. He's PR...his name isn't important.

 

Given that we were playing from the blues (basically 7000 yards), I feel like I mostly held my own most of the way (I got sloppy on the last few) playing the at-the-time-not-announced SpeedBlade irons. As far as GI irons go, I actually like the SpeedBlade quite a bit, but given that I'm so awesome and all, I basically scoff at the notion of game-improvement irons. You know...thicker toplines, offset, etc. 

 

I play muscle-cavities or musclebacks, ******!

 

So anyway, Tom asked me if I had put the SpeedBladez in my bag. Rather than tell Tom (who plays to an easy +something and has no issues with the SpeedBlade) that I'm too awesome for game-improvement irons, I fell back on the perfectly legitimate excuse that the set I have (stock 85g stiff shafts) are ill suited to my game. Dude offered to send me shafts. C'mon.

 

While my actual awesomeness on the golf course is up for much debate, there's not a sober fitter in the world that would put me in those shafts.

 

WIth some ups and downs (mostly ups which isn't good when you're talking about your handicap) I managed to finish last season basically right where I started (I think I finished .2 better than I started the year), which is, well, sad.

 

And so here we are...I'm 1-2.5 months away from a new golf season, and despite having Cobra AMP Cell Pro irons that I love, and some new TaylorMade Tour Preferred to experiment with, I can't completely shake the idea of going back to game-improvement irons. 

 

As far as golf is concerned, I'm trying to put myself in the mindset of George Costanza in that Seinfeld episode where he does the opposite of what his initial impulse is. My impulse right now is to bag something similar to the JBones set of Tour Preferred irons, and play my driver at 45.5". To illustrate my own stupidity in this matter, I should probably mention that the drivers I hit best in our driver test were basically the ones with the shortest shafts (lesson in that right...and sadly, I already know this).

 

So the opposite of player's CBs and MBs and a 45.5" driver is at a minimum GI clubs and a driver no longer than 45" (44" would probably be even better, but I have my pride, foolish as it may be). Maybe I should even try graphite iron shafts (because my initial reaction is that I'm too much of a man for those too).

Have any of you tried and succeeded at kicking foolish pride to the curb and going back to something you once considered yourself too good for or that didn't "suit your eye"? How'd that go?

 

I'm on the fence here. I need somebody to convince me this is a bad idea...or a good one.

[revkev]

Driver 44.5 and even though I'm currently bagging i20s my longest iron is a 6.

 

I get my kicks out of shooting the lowest score. I'm fortunate that this is what stokes my ego though. But you of all people should know..........

[Walkerjames]

I starting to think this way. When I was in Carlsbad I bought a set of MC and although not game improvement irons by any means, I find them much more forgiving than my s56 and I have dropped my Nike 001 for a mallet putter and I have seen improvements there as well.

[The Dansome]

Dude I had so much fun hittting long high shots with the RocketBlades around last summer and I really think the Speedblades are better.

 

Why not split the difference? The Tmag CB's are absolute money and going to be hard to beat.

[dru_]

I second the CB's. Love mine.

[SeeRed]

"Have any of you tried and succeeded at kicking foolish pride to the curb and going back to something you once considered yourself too good for or that didn't "suit your eye"? How'd that go?"

 

Yes, moving from 3-PW to 5-PW and carrying two hybrids. And while I occasionally think there are times when I'd like to have a 4I in the bag, it has gone very well.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Interesting question - when I was gaming the Amp Cell GI irons last year, I was having fun.  When I switched back to the MP-59's I found that my game had….improved.  Had my best ball striking month ever after switching, which was even more fun.  Have no reasonable explanation for this...

Jetspeed's with the right shaft and a set of Amp Cell Pro's and Tour Preferred's seem like a golfer's wet dream. When the swing goes south dig out the GI's for a while, then switch back and see if there's a difference...

[whiskey golf]

A couple years ago I switched from Titleist CB irons to Mizuno JPX 825 Pros for the extra forgiveness. Lately I've had the urge to play something less forgiving but everytime I try something in the store like blades or a muscle cavity, I can't hit it for crap. A couple weeks ago I went into my golf shop and then went to the hitting bay with 6 different irons including Taylormade MB, Cleveland 588, Mizuno MP blades, PING S55 and a couple other models and then proceeded to hit. I shanked 4 shots in a row then left the bay, and this is a big store so people had to have seen this and think, "What a hack, trying out blades." So I always realize that I need to work with what I have and not switch it up unless it needs replacing or it actually performs better. 

[PlaidJacket]

At last month's PGA Show I had a casual chat with TaylorMade's Tom Kroll (point of mentioning that to come) 

 

When I visited TaylorMade last August I played Torrey Pines with Kroll, Current Sr. Director of Product Creation (formerly irons, now metalwoods) Brian Bazzel, and the PR Guy. He's PR...his name isn't important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the next time you decide to visit TM you should reconsider and tell them to go shove it. I am so down on TM and their Hack Golf crap. I consider them sell outs. As are the PGA of America and the NGF. I had an old TM hybrid in my bag but took it out.

As far as you playing a GI club I can't advise. I don't know your game. But I'm guessing a high single digit handicapper. Which isn't anything to be ashamed of. I find too many guys play the wrong clubs for their ability. ( as in blade type clubs) Either they are receiving bad advise or a sales person is out for a sale at all cost, or they are idiots. Poor guys can't break 90 yet they are playing clubs Hogan would struggle with.

[Kor.A.Door]

if it dont look good to my eye i wont even try it.

[GolfSpy WD]

I'll play GIs until the day I die. I just have so much more fun with them than even a player's cavity like the TP CBs.

[Mr_Theoo]

After my first season I got rid of my chunky GI irons because I kept having issues with them digging. I wanted a set of pro combos but found a great deal on a set of MB2s. As odd as it sounds that may have been the best thing I did for my game because it showed how much helped I needed getting better. So I guess my blades helped me get better by making me get lessons.

[dru_]

Sorry, I was on my phone earlier and I am simply not capable of typing anything out on that evil little thing.

 

Short version is that I think there is a fine line between Players, GI and SGI irons, and that the line between Players and GI is getting really murky.  

 

I am going to pick on the TaylorMade product matrix a bit here.  Nothing in the current TaylorMade branded matrix really fits the SGI category.  You have to look at the Adams IDEA products to find a real SGI product, and honestly, there is a strong case for those to be played by a lot of us that choose to play something else.

 

The RocketBladez were GI irons that hit great, looked "alright", but sounded like shovels.  There just isn't a better way to describe that sound. Even a pure hit sounded like a miss.  They have been replaced by the SpeedBlade which is an evolution of the RocketBladez that looks better, has a thinner top line (marginally), hit great, and actually sound like an iron should (more or less, the thunk of a ball out on the toe is still awful). 

 

The SpeedBlade is a good product, and hitting it side by side the Tour Preferred line, I could have played them without too much problem. 

 

Hitting the MB's I know I don't need them, but damn they look and sound great.  And when you hit them pure, they are just oh so _excuse me a moment while I go clean myself up from the memory_.  The thing is, while some days, they would be perfect, others, I would hate them, myself, and probably life in general.  I am not that good a ball striker.

 

Enter the MC's.  Emotionally, these were the clubs I wanted. On that range, they felt great, and the playability was exceptional.  I went through every single head and shaft combo they had out there.  

 

I had a lot of time to monkey with this, as my fitting was VERY easy.  

 

My ego wanted the MC's. But I kept going back to the SpeedBlade and the CB because the results far outweighed the emotional/ego driven response.

 

I ended up buying the CB's which even TaylorMade admits is for all intents and purposes the 'SpeedBlade Tour'.  It has the smaller top line, the speed pocket, and the cavity back, and you know what? it is still essentially a GI club. (Until you start talking AW, at which point it is a pure MB).

 

I played those CB's that day, with very little practice.  I did not play particularly well, but the irons weren't the issue.  An utter lack of confidence (and a fairly large amount of alcohol) caused most of my problems.  Since then however, I've played 5 rounds.  Each round has been an improvement over the prior, and honestly every 'bad' stroke I have had in that time has come from my short wedges that I am fiddling with.

 

Interestingly, I just had my old IDEA's shafted to something I could actually play today if I wanted, but really wanted them as an extra set for guests that don't have clubs with them. I took them to the range, and found that they remain very good clubs, once you mentally decide  you want to be a "better" golfer, you will never be "happy" looking down on an SGI, but that the visual difference between a modern GI and 'Tour' level muscle cavity has become so minimal that there is absolutely no reason not to play the 'Tour' level cavity backs, and my ego is not bruised to be playing what I know are GI clubs.

[HighFade]

Unless you can play/practice at least 2-3 times a week, or are super talented (I'm neither), you're leaving strokes on the table if you're playing blades. We have this awesome technology, it's crazy not to use it.

[revkev]

Unless you can play/practice at least 2-3 times a week, or are super talented (I'm neither), you're leaving strokes on the table if you're playing blades. We have this awesome technology, it's crazy not to use it.

Even guys on tour go for a little help. + 1

[JBones]

The short answer is go with whatever helps you beat the guy you're teeing it up against. The RocketBladez weren't anything I would have aged before, but they stayed in the bag, because I kicked butt with them.

[kygolfer1980]

It's really a no win situation between the ears.  Right now,  I have a set of Adams CMB's and a set of Scratch AR1 precursors.  Both are too much iron for me especially considering  that I haven't swung a club since the middle of October.  If I were to put a set of GI in my bag,  I would be consumed during the round that I am too good to play them.  And I am not,  I fluctuate between 7-11 on the handicap.  When I got fitted for the Mizuno's in the tour contest,  the fitter tried to put me fully in a set of JPX 825's(not the tour version).  He said a 1 handicap at Victoria National played them.  That's like being a +3 anywhere else so I caved and got 4-7 in the 825 and 8-P in the 59's.  Every time I played them,  I focused on the topline and offset instead of just playing golf.  Might have been a mental block but I just couldn't do it.  Loved the 59's but hated the 825's.

[revkev]

It's really a no win situation between the ears. Right now, I have a set of Adams CMB's and a set of Scratch AR1 precursors. Both are too much iron for me especially considering that I haven't swung a club since the middle of October. If I were to put a set of GI in my bag, I would be consumed during the round that I am too good to play them. And I am not, I fluctuate between 7-11 on the handicap. When I got fitted for the Mizuno's in the tour contest, the fitter tried to put me fully in a set of JPX 825's(not the tour version). He said a 1 handicap at Victoria National played them. That's like being a +3 anywhere else so I caved and got 4-7 in the 825 and 8-P in the 59's. Every time I played them, I focused on the topline and offset instead of just playing golf. Might have been a mental block but I just couldn't do it. Loved the 59's but hated the 825's.

But which did you hit better?

 

I find that I do well with some sort of iron that's clearly progressive. I can't stand looking down at a short iron that looks clumsy. However once I get to 6/7, I need the help. Man do I need the help.

[jpcgolf]

I currently have the jpx 825, and I am looking for new irons.  I have tried out the ap2, but I can't get my head around losing 4-10 yards on each club.  I wonder if the taylormade CBs will be the right fit.  I am right in the middle.

[MarcKilgore]

Forget about the loss of distance. If you aren't hitting it perfect - you'll get better - trust me. I moved from the JPX 825 to the MP-54. My teaching pro said he thought those 825's were holding me back and I was stuck in a rut because I wasn't getting the proper feedback, and I wasn't experienced enough to recognize it. He said I was a little sloppy and still moving all over the place, but because my shots were still going straight and long from the forgiveness of the clubs - it didn't compute. He believed the JPX 825's were holding me back because I needed to be forced to swing better. It was a leap of faith, but he has gotten me from a 14 to a 5 index in a year, so I decided to believe him and just go for it. I'll tell you what - after only 2 range sessions of around 200 balls each, I was a believer. 

 

My 4 iron has gotten so good in the last month that I joke about putting a 3 iron back in the bag - small little draw - smoked on a rope (of course, that's with a perfect lie on a range) . I'm convinced the pro was absolutely correct. He explained that anyone that is working hard on their game will struggle after a while if they are playing with newer GI or SGI clubs. Due to the lack of that dramatic sensation of puring a shot, they don't "get the high that keeps them coming back for more" to get them to the next level. Once I experienced puring a shot with the MP-54, I understood how different it was - I almost peed my pants.  I wanted more of that... it's like a drug you can't get enough of. I NEVER got that sensation with the 825's. That drive to get that sensation of getting a pure shot is now what drives me to practice several times a week and really start to focus on the little bitty things. For me, moving from the JPX 825 to the MP-54 was the catalyst that made that happen. I'm addicted to that feeling now.

 

BTW - I tried the 714's and thought they were also very good. It came down to looks for me, and just a little better feeling when puring shots with the MP-54. The KBS Tour Stiff shafts that I ended up with were also cheaper than getting them with the 714s.

 

Forget about the small loss of distance. If you play/practice frequently, you are going to get better and you'll start hitting it just a bit better. If you practice a lot - make the leap. You're going to love it.

[whiskey golf]

I currently have the jpx 825, and I am looking for new irons.  I have tried out the ap2, but I can't get my head around losing 4-10 yards on each club.  I wonder if the taylormade CBs will be the right fit.  I am right in the middle.

 

Give the Pro versions a try, they are a great iron.

[Blade]

I've considered the 825 pros and even the bio cells. I have the Amp Cell Pros Cobra gave me which are some great looking clubs I think. Dual cavity in the long irons flowing to mb in the short irons. So they have some built in forgiveness, not like a GI, but more than full on blades.

 

There are two things keeping me from the GI clubs mainly. First is exactly what Marc described. The feel of puring a player's club is addictive and I agree...it gives you the will and determination to improve compared to clubs that let you get away with being more sloppy.

 

But two, when I think of my bad shots with irons, they're not the kind of things a GI club would help for the most part. Missing the center of the face is the biggest thing they help make up for. I don't usually miss by that much. My bad shots are a tad heavy or thin, sometimes a bit of a push or pull. GI cubs won't do much for those type of shots. Plus a big clunky head makes me feel like I'll hit everything but the ball.

 

But if I were to go with a GI set, it would be the 825 pros or bio cells most likely. They both look pretty good at address.

[kygolfer1980]

But which did you hit better?

 

I find that I do well with some sort of iron that's clearly progressive. I can't stand looking down at a short iron that looks clumsy. However once I get to 6/7, I need the help. Man do I need the help.

My scores were no better for sure.  I have never been a strong iron player anyway but I feel like I hit the CMB's every bit as well, prob more consistent even.

[revkev]

Interesting remarks - 200 balls two days in a row?  I'd be in traction.   It's a valid point though.  How much time do you have to work on your game, what are you trying to accomplish?  Also what does your eye prefer? 

 

It was interesting to me that both Matt and I went for a Mizuno fitting at the same time and that our fitters recommended something similar for each of us - a players club in the short end of the bag of regular JPX's in the middle.  My experience was similar to his - it didn't work that well for me.  I think I would have done better either with the 59's up through the 7/6 and then hybrids the rest of the way or even perahps that progressive set in the MP line that hasn't taken root - who cares - I think they would have worked for me and they graded out well for me on the launch monitor.  But, my friend who has the mixed set that I received does great with them.  He's not an equipment geek, he doesn't know for GI, players, SGI, he just likes to play golf so he's not worried about it and frankly he's playing the best golf of his life at 57 years of age with those irons.  Makes me sick because I have to work much, much harder to take his money.

 

I know that since I have a day job I don't have the time to practice full shots and for that matter my body won't allow me to hit that many practice balls anymore - for those who are newer to the forum I have a disabled daughter whom I have to lift 5 6 times a day, it's all that I can do to manage that and she's tough on the back - easy on the heart but tough on the back.  With all due respect to Marc's pro and my pro when he made that same recommendation to me 10 years ago I'd give up golf if I didn't have some GI - I need to know that I can set my irons aside for 3 weeks, have a friend call to go play a round, pick them up and hit reasonably good shots.  I devote my practice time to the practice green and if I can hit it in play off the tee and stay sharp there I can score.  If I score, have a couple of beers and a cigar its a good day.

[GolfSpy WD]

This is derailing the topic, but I'll say it anyway:

 

I've been to several types of fittings at this point. What I've learned is the fitters that go by the numbers and follow a recipe approach really aren't any better than just trying things off the rack. That's why I'm so skeptical of the GolfTec and Golfsmith approach, they try to take the human element out of the equation.

 

Then there are fitters that look at your swing and ball flight and know exactly what you need. Listen to feedback, and adjust based on your preference. You should try everything and go with whatever your gut and fitter agree with.

[Rickles]

I really like what WD just wrote. Iron play has never been the strong suit of my game. My short game has always been what has always kept me close to scratch and it is the reason my scores are higher now because I don't get much practice time, but I really think you have to go with something you like and feels good to you and then fit it to get good numbers. I switched from MP32's to 825pros because I really thought the game improvement would help me hit my irons better. For many people it does, but unfortunately GI gave me no confidence. I had just gotten used to the look of that smaller head and I thought I was going to hit every shot thin. In the end I found a compromise. My KZG's have small heads, almost no offset, and the forged feel I'm used to but have enough cavity in mid and long irons to give me a little more forgiveness.

I also only play up to a 4 iron and carry a 3 hybrid. I also carry a bunch of wedges and only a couple clubs that hit over 200 yards because it helps me score better. 

I think the point is get an idea of what looks good to you and gives you confidence. Then work with a fitter to get something that is well fit, helps you, and still looks good to you. Then practice your butt off and stick with them because you know they work. 

Most of us have been bit by the club ho bug or we wouldn't be on this forum so much. But I don't think switching clubs every season is the best thing for our games. 

Getting serious about game improvement has more to do with our commitment to focused practice than the type of irons we play. That's why I'm not improving because I'm not practicing.

[wbealsd]

WD is dead on about fitters.  In our neck of the woods, there really haven't been any custom fitters available until late last summer and I got fitted in Illinois when I was visiting friends back "home" where I grew up.  I switched irons mid-season last summer and dropped 4 strokes.  Practice is essential, but good tools are an important part of the equation.

[JBones]

Then there are fitters that look at your swing and ball flight and know exactly what you need. Listen to feedback, and adjust based on your preference. You should try everything and go with whatever your gut and fitter agree with.

This comment is exactly why I love my fitter.

[The Dansome]

So I went into my fitting this weekend dead set on moving back into a players CB. Nope...

 

I'm not compressing the ball like I used to and it looks like GI is for me. My current Rocketbladez are a good fit, but they did manage to find something better from this years OEM lineups. Take a look at your numbers people, the ones that count were night and day improved for me.

[MarcKilgore]

Interesting remarks - 200 balls two days in a row?  I'd be in traction.   It's a valid point though.  How much time do you have to work on your game, what are you trying to accomplish?  Also what does your eye prefer? 

 

It was interesting to me that both Matt and I went for a Mizuno fitting at the same time and that our fitters recommended something similar for each of us - a players club in the short end of the bag of regular JPX's in the middle.  My experience was similar to his - it didn't work that well for me.  I think I would have done better either with the 59's up through the 7/6 and then hybrids the rest of the way or even perahps that progressive set in the MP line that hasn't taken root - who cares - I think they would have worked for me and they graded out well for me on the launch monitor.  But, my friend who has the mixed set that I received does great with them.  He's not an equipment geek, he doesn't know for GI, players, SGI, he just likes to play golf so he's not worried about it and frankly he's playing the best golf of his life at 57 years of age with those irons.  Makes me sick because I have to work much, much harder to take his money.

 

I know that since I have a day job I don't have the time to practice full shots and for that matter my body won't allow me to hit that many practice balls anymore - for those who are newer to the forum I have a disabled daughter whom I have to lift 5 6 times a day, it's all that I can do to manage that and she's tough on the back - easy on the heart but tough on the back.  With all due respect to Marc's pro and my pro when he made that same recommendation to me 10 years ago I'd give up golf if I didn't have some GI - I need to know that I can set my irons aside for 3 weeks, have a friend call to go play a round, pick them up and hit reasonably good shots.  I devote my practice time to the practice green and if I can hit it in play off the tee and stay sharp there I can score.  If I score, have a couple of beers and a cigar its a good day.

Yea, I guess I'm obsessed - I admit it. I gave up the game for 15 years while my daughters were growing up. Now that they are out of the house, I hit the indoor dome three or four times a week sometimes and hit balls for a couple hours.