What about the Roll out of your driver?

[Bruiser]

I was fitting a former PGA tour player this week. He hustle golf for 27 years after the tour. Boy, does he have stories. Any way, he has had some injuries and 78 . I started talking about launch angle spin etc based on his swing speed He looked at me and said I don't care about all that, " I want roll."

 

Are the best numbers taking maximum roll out into consideration?

[revkev]

I was fitting a former PGA tour player this week. He hustle golf for 27 years after the tour. Boy, does he have stories. Any way, he has had some injuries and 78 . I started talking about launch angle spin etc based on his swing speed He looked at me and said I don't care about all that, " I want roll."

 

Are the best numbers taking maximum roll out into consideration?

 

 

And that's the SLDR schtick - high launch/low spin = long roll out.  I do find that to be the case - the only problem is low in the club face = high spin = equals little carry and no roll out - but that's an Indian problem not a club problem - if you're an Indian who can put the center of the club face on the ball a lot it's a grand concept.

 

I love having experienced fitters here - please do stay around.

[JBones]

I used to want a lot of roll, but after getting hosed a few times by roll, I'm back to maximizing carry.  If I carry it 280 and expect 40yds of roll, I have to plan where it's going to roll or I can just carry it 310 and get 10yds of roll for the same result and don't have to worry about where it's going to roll.

[BIG STU]

It depends on several factors. For me I hit what we called a bullet ball (stinger) depending on the hole layout. I tee the ball lower and deloft the club at impact and I do play it a little back in my stance. Now if i am playing a course like Richard described his home course I need control then I tee it higher and play it forward in my stance with a baby cut. I get more distance with the bullet because of the roll out but I get more control with the high cut. Not saying right or wrong but that is how I play it

[Blade]

Kind of getting off track here. The question is whether the optimum numbers for maximum total distance are also the best for maximum roll. I don't believe that's the case. A lower launch might result in more roll. But why does he believe more roll is better than more distance with more carry and a bit less roll?

[xxio]

What is the supposed optimal "decay of descent" for driver again? 40something?

[fozcycle]

You need both, because the course is not always going to be optimal for the roll. There are times when the course is wet and there us no roll. So my choice is a driver that I can adjust before the round. Currently, we are still getting roll at my course, so I set my driver to 9.5. Soon when the rainy season hits I will adjust back to 10.5 or 11.5 to achieve a higher loft and a big more carry.

[Jondagcl]

Wouldn't a combination of carry and roll would be the most versatile. A long dog leg par 4 for example where cutting a corner over trees would be the ideal shot comes to mind. I'm not saying I don't want my drives to roll out a ton, I'm just saying I rarely wish it went super low and rolled out a ton.

 

The more I think about it, there are probably 2 local courses here that I'd need to bench the driver if it was an exclusively a low carry high roll out driver...

[Jondagcl]

Where do these "numbers" go on the score card?

This has grown into a cottage industry-

I just wanna know how this old Pro, and a whole lot of people played this game game successfully for all these decades without these numbers-

 

To be fair RP, just because back in the day people didn't have the technology to analyze their clubs or swing and were able to play doesn't mean that it was better or correct. They played the same way people do anything before the advent of a better substitute - as good as you can with what you've got. I'd rather a modern doctor over a medieval doctor....

[Jondagcl]

Welcome to the forum and I wish you a great season

Thanks! Been a member since 2010 though. Don't let the post count fool ya, I read a lot more than I type.

[RookieBlue7]

Numbers mean nothing... Except for the fact that every pro on tour is now using them to scratch out half a yard of distance or accuracy. Guys like Rory or Dustin or Tiger hitting clubs on a launch monitor and calling out spin rates within 100-200 RPM's to the fitter and being dead on the money. Same goes for the amateur, albeit to a lesser degree. They're looking for numbers for an amateur that maximize the potential for success over an average. You might have a 20 handicap golfer that struggles with distance off the tee and it's the cause for killing his score because he is having to hit longer irons in. So he's fit and the average of the numbers with the best fitting club gets him 10-20 yards. That's a club to 2 clubs for the average amateur, which is the difference in hitting a long iron and a mid iron for some. Shorter clubs are easier to control and the average amateur improves on proximity to the pin by 10 yards or so from those 10-20 yards gained and 1-2 clubs shorter for the approach shot. The handicap may not drop at all or it may only go down a stroke or two, but it could make the game much more enjoyable for that amateur because hitting it further is fun and opportunities to score are increased.

 

Just because the tech wasn't available back in the day doesn't mean it's wrong. The pros back in the day did an antiquated version of fitting. They didn't have the numbers we have available today, but don't think they just grabbed a club and went. Arnold Palmer has 25k clubs in his basement or more because of it. He'd build 5-6 clubs identical with only different shafts to find the one that was just right. That's fitting. If he had the tech now back then, he'd have used it as he does now at Callaway HQ since he's a staffer now.

 

Just because they didn't use it doesn't mean it doesn't have merits now. Technology improves, that's the way of the world.

 

They didn't have indoor plumbing a while back either , but who today wants to keep a bucket in the corner of the room in case you have to piss in the middle of the night.

 

As far as maximizing roll with today's modern preferred numbers. There are variables that come into play. Course condition, weather, etc.

 

I play a SLDR at a higher loft than I've ever played and hit the tee ball higher than ever. But it also carries forever and when it's not too wet I still get a lot of roll. Something about that tells me that high launch and low spin is relevant and works.

[xxio]

Always difficult to compare different eras. Even if you look at the Masters, Augusta is not "the same" course where Gary Player won his green Jacket. IMHO if the tech of today was available to Arnold, Jack, Sam Snead,etc back then I would bet they would use it. They didn't have it so they had to make do with was available.

 

I have a friend who can only hit draws and hooks. He tried weak grip, open stance and so many other things. No dice. 3D showed he has early extension of 4inches. He was given drills to help against early extension. He can now hit fades and has better control of short clubs.

 

To say that LM are not helpful is shortsighted. It could as simple as a guy who keeps saying he hits it 275 realize he only hits 230 and has to use regular flex shafts.

[Jondagcl]

It's an Internet forum about golf clubs. It's all good.

[RookieBlue7]

I'd venture to say that a tour pro would benefit less than an amateur from a fitting. They can hit anything and score with it. Tiger once hit a left handed club right handed on a par 3 and hit the green (Tiger Trap video from Buick). Those guys are good. They can make an ill fitted club work more than an amateur could.

 

And far be it for me to tell anyone how to spend their own money.

[revkev]

Here's something I haven't done for a while - the Rev translation of Rookies post.

 

Numbers are a means to an end. The idea is to shoot the lowest score possible and for 99 percent of us higher, longer and straighter will he preach that goal.

 

Bruise's pro recognizes that he needs the longer roll out to get it where he needs to get it to score. I've played that way and if I lived in Indiana or Texas I still would in a heartbeat.

 

It doesn't work in Florida that often because of the climate including the type of grasses used in the fairway. We need to really on carry much of the time. I played with Foz on weds and his course is dryer than mine. When I hit my SLDR well I was out with the buddies he brought along and his lower running drives weren't too far behind us.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Honestly, I think it depends on the course and conditions. I am a low ball flight with a lot of roll kind of golfer. Wet conditions are the bane of my existence on the golf course. Problem is that if it is dry, I often run through fairways playing a draw. For most golfers though think low shots with lots of roll would be better considering that most shots go farther wide when they are hit higher. Hit it low and often it will grab in the rough and not go as far wide. Again though, think it truly depends on the course and ogler.

[Blade]

Good point. If someone has a lot of curve to their ball, maximum carry will be more trouble, especially if they don't aim enough for it. And of course windy conditions would be safer with a lower flight with lots of roll. Makes me go back to the original question...what are target numbers to stay low with a lot of roll compared to the typical maximum distance calcs that max out carry usually? And, how much total distance would you give up by going for more roll?

[RookieBlue7]

I wouldn't give up any distance for roll. Carry is predictable, roll isn't. Carry max is 17/1700, roll max I'd imagine is 10-12 and 2000.

 

I'm around 16/2000 with the current setup and haven't noticed wind causing directional problems

[sp0rtsfan86]

Good point. If someone has a lot of curve to their ball, maximum carry will be more trouble, especially if they don't aim enough for it. And of course windy conditions would be safer with a lower flight with lots of roll. Makes me go back to the original question...what are target numbers to stay low with a lot of roll compared to the typical maximum distance calcs that max out carry usually? And, how much total distance would you give up by going for more roll?

 

I wouldn't give up distance for roll. Carry maybe, but not overall distance. Ideally I'd hit it about a 10-1 ratio between carry and roll with the ability to knock it down to 8-1 in windy conditions. Think though its up to comfort levels, where I'm used to needing roll, other players like dropping shots at certain points.

[RookieBlue7]

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2014/07/01/trackman-instruction-tiger-woods.html

Great article on the usage of Trackman.

[revkev]

Very interesting read Rookie, thanks. 

 

Not only that what you see happening in golf happens in all sports.  That's how you get the cool thing about how fast a pitch is travelling or the exotic shifts against certain hitters or the freaky performance swim suits.

 

It is what it is but why in the world wouldn't a professional use everything at his or her dispossal to get an edge?  You can bet that the next guy is doing it.

[Bruiser]

Every 10 yards it rolls means one less iron to hit. Low spin means more roll if the fairway is dry. I was fitting a golfer today that hit the ball higher the stiffer the shaft got. Go figure.

[revkev]

I'm not proud I will take the roll out. I get why a player with a faster swing speed wants as much carry and as little roll as possible. I need very little bit of yardage I can get. I actually hit a couple of drives over 250 yesterday. While it's dryer than normal for this time of year we are still talking Florida in July. I'm surprised at how far the SLDR will roll out for me when I flush it.

[markb]

I'm testing a 12° SLDR against my 9.5° Optiforce right now. Both have the same shaft cut to the same length. Through tinkering I've finally gotten them to launch about the same height. When struck similarly I can see the roll out difference by counting the bounces. The Opti will bounce 5-7 times, the SLDR 7-9 times. But the Opti is usually longer. On a wet day in spring, I'd take the Opti. On a dry windy day in Summer, the SLDR. The SLDR's "misses" are better than the Opti's, they skid and skip not very far offline with little curve. But the SLDR's unforgiving face creates more mishits than pure strikes.

 

 So I'm torn. I like that rollout, but I view it as a seasonal fringe benefit.

[revkev]

I'm testing a 12° SLDR against my 9.5° Optiforce right now. Both have the same shaft cut to the same length. Through tinkering I've finally gotten them to launch about the same height. When struck similarly I can see the roll out difference by counting the bounces. The Opti will bounce 5-7 times, the SLDR 7-9 times. But the Opti is usually longer. On a wet day in spring, I'd take the Opti. On a dry windy day in Summer, the SLDR. The SLDR's "misses" are better than the Opti's, they skid and skip not very far offline with little curve. But the SLDR's unforgiving face creates more mishits than pure strikes.

 

 So I'm torn. I like that rollout, but I view it as a seasonal fringe benefit.

Hey Mark I don't know if we've encountered each other before so welcome. You may wish to get on a launch monitor to compare those drivers. Most guys have found that the shaft in their old or other driver is not the ideal shaft in the SLDR. Good luck!

[markb]

Hey Mark I don't know if we've encountered each other before so welcome. You may wish to get on a launch monitor to compare those drivers. Most guys have found that the shaft in their old or other driver is not the ideal shaft in the SLDR. Good luck!

 

Yeah, I hear you about that untried, mystical Alibaba Opensesame shaft that if I could only try it, it would unlock the potential of the clubhead in question.  It will always be there, teasing me with what ifs, for every club I pass over.

 

This is my second SLDR head.  And I've hit probably a half dozen shafts in it.   Speeder stock (garbage), Fuji Rombax, Motore F1 and F3, my preferred shaft and a couple of others.  Always come back to the preferred (fitted) shaft in just about anything I mate it to, probably because it fits the way I load best.  And it unquestionably improves the performance of any head I stick it in over stock configurations.

 

We could do a whole side topic on the efficaciousness of working out your club choices on a monitor, and which monitor you should use, and what if you have a knucklehead kid working the thing, and do you go doppler or photo, indoors or out?   But back to the topic, let me mention that you CANNOT SEE ROLLOUT on any indoor monitor and rollout is an iffy read even on the doppler systems   You can preset it or fake it with estimations on indoor optical systems, but you cannot actually see it.

 

My fundamental problem with monitor shopping is that I ain't buyin' any head or any shaft at full retail from a pro or store.  So this limits my monitor time to what I can RENT, because my local pros or range guys won't give me the time of day.   So my monitor sessions usually break down into me taking in my gamer, getting 2 or three new drivers out of the demo bay in stock shafts that are at least close to my specs, and seeing what happens on the monitor.   Usually they don't come close to the gamer and after I make these first cuts, I'll end up with a possible few that I think are worthy of further scrutiny. 

 

I buy these possibles cheap on ebay along with tip adapters and other shafts to try as well.  Then I test them for 3 weeks intensively at the course and range.  At the end of that time, I know which one is best.  If a contender knocks a gamer out of my bag, so be it.  If not, it gets resold on Ebay for about the same as I bought it.

 

I will say this in agreement with you -- the SLDR is much more sensitive to ideal shaft and settings configurations than other clubs I've tried.   It can go from a dog to a pretty good club SOLELY based on how you set it up and what shaft you put in it and where you hit it on the clubface.  

 

This is my second one.  I bought a 9.5 back in August of 2013 and I HATED IT.  I couldn't get it airborne and the mishits were awful.   This year I drank the Loft Up Kool-aid and bought another.  A 12 degree.  I spent a lot more time with shafts and settings and impact tape.   I learned that while its mishits still always feel bad and maybe look bad, they often skip and roll out to good spots.   Toe mishits are AWFUL, but inside heel-ish and low mishits are pretty good.  So I started favoring those.   If I were a pro and could hotmelt and spine-align and try all those Alibaba shafts we can't get or they don't have in the fitter bay, the SLDR could be a pretty good club.

 

It is a pretty good club, but ya know what?   It's on to the 915 and G30 now, baby!

[revkev]

Love the last line!

 

However for now the SLDR will do for me because my misses tend to be in the heal or low hooks and as you've observed this baby works okay with those miss hits.

[Bruiser]

I started playing when drivers were 43 1/2" steel was the shaft and the heads were about the size of 3 woods with 7 & 8 degree lofts. No telling how far it was going but most the time I was hitting 60 yards 2 nd shots. That was the hardest shot in golf.

[Bruiser]

Speaking of numbers but how much roll? Where did it land and were did it stop. Are there shafts that create top spin. Does teeing it up more forward and hitting ball on the up stroke create top spin. I once hit a 7 degree many years ago that I could tee forward and get top spin. You would see it diving for the fairway

.

I now see the ball climbing instead of launched and think to myself, I once thought that climbing was a well struck ball. Things change.

 

Not anymore. Certain amounts of backspin combined with certain amount ball speed equals longest landing spots. In theory or is it fact?