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What Makes a Great Golf Course?


Tony Covey MGS

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So I was driving by this patch of woods on my way to drop my kid off at preschool today and I got to thinking about how cool it would be to build a golf course on the land...you know, if there was actually enough land...and if I actually owned it...and if I could actually afford to build a golf course (after buying the land), and I got to thinking about what makes for a great golf course.

 

There's some pretty obvious stuff, right?

 

  • Conditions
  • Location...think Pebble Beach, or Whistling Straits, or Torrey Pines...it's pretty hard to screw it up too badly when you're basically starting in heaven.

 

Among local courses, the differentiating characteristic seems to be 'layout'. I know what it means...but I don't actually know what it means.

What makes a layout good or bad? What are the differences makers between the courses you love and the ones you don't?

 

 

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Other than the subjective issues, I think you are correct, location plays into it, but I can think of a dozen expensive courses in the area, with big name designers that are beautiful to look look at, and quite frankly suck to play.

 

They layout visually appealing, and depending upon the course, they are set up for specific player types. 

 

One of them, The Manor, is a great example.  It is gorgeous, nestled in a gated community of homes from 800k to 3 mil. A very open layout, designed by Tom Watson. is 6738 yards from the blues (not the tips), with a slope/rating of 138/72.6. In theory, this is just a fantastic course, and it's membership fees, and guest fees would indicate that it is a world class facility. 

 

In practice, it is either very easy, very hard, or impossible. 

 

It is north Atlanta, so it is Appalachian Mountains foothills country.  A lot of elevation change, which compounds the next issues. For golfers that really don't have a 220 yard club in the bag, they are in for a very very long day, as fully half of the holes need a 200 yard+ tee shot, to make a GIR. Every green is guarded, so your approaches need to be accurate, and because of the local weather, the bunkers are in 'ideal' condition about 1 or 2 days a year (and even then probably only for a few hours). 

 

Now that said, I mentioned the very easy, group. 

 

I am a high capper, mostly because I have a wide dispersion off the tee.  These fairways, once you reach them are wide.  I mean really wide, and if you miss the fairway left to right, there is a ton of room.  Even if you end up in the woods, the underbrush is kept clear and the recovery shots are often unobstructed.  I think you see where I am going. 

 

I play to a 15-19 index, and yet all 3 of my personal best rounds have come on this 'very hard' course, not on my short (under 6000 yard, 129 slope/ par 70) home course which is considered to be one of the easier courses in the area.  Why? because while I may spray my tee shots left or right, I have enough distance that it doesn't matter. There is not a single hole on the course that I cannot hit GiR more often than not. Why? because I can carry that first shot over 240 on a consistent basis, and love to be 175 -135 yards out. 

 

Many of the guys I play with, are far better golfers than I am, and yet, they cannot consistently beat any of the 'big gun/high cappers' on that course. Why? because they are playing their second shots from the rough before the fairways, or from short landing zones that take GiR off the table.. 

 

Then there are the greens, where a flat surface doesn't exist, but that is putting in Atlanta. 

 

Meanwhile, 4 miles away, is my home course.  Short, tight landing zones, evilly protected greens.  I love it, and  all of the members do too.  It makes you learn to hit better shots. Grip and Rip won't get it done. And yet, it is a $$ instead of a $$$$ course. It is also operating at a profit in these tough times, while that other course is on it's 3rd bank owner in the last 3 years.

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For me it's mostly based on conditions.  I don't need to putt on a marble counter top, or hit off carpet fairways all the time, but you can tell pretty quickly if the maintenance staff takes pride in their course.  There is a certain level of quality and consistency needed to even be considered a good course.

 

Then I really like courses where you have a little variety in the layout.  My course is a links course and you won't see a tree until you get to #13 on the back.  #13 has one tree, #14 & #15 are both wooded and then #16 gets back to the links layout.  It's a nice little change of pace.  I also like variety in some risk reward holes.  I don't need to have a go at every par 5, but it's nice if you can have a shot at getting to a couple of them in 2.  Also depending on the wind we have a par 4 you can drive, but it's uphill and you have to cut over a large hill and the entire area you have to fly is long prairie grass.  Miss it during the summer months and you won't be finding the ball.

 

Lastly something I really like about my course is they have a couple holes with split fairways, 1 par 3 with two sets of tee's, one on the right side level with the green and one on the left side higher on a hill, and one par 3 with two greens they change from day to day.  When you play 50+ rounds on the same course it's a nice added feature that they can change the way some of the holes play from day to day.

 

So my top things I like to see at courses...

 

  • Consistency of conditions.  Especially sand and green speed
  • Variety in holes (some are open and you swing away, some are more target type of golf)
  • Risk/reward holes (going for a par 5 in 2 or driving a green of a par 4)
  • Ability to change the way to course plays from day to day

I'll also add in a couple of biggest pet peeves.  I hate courses with blind shots you have no idea where to hit to unless you've played it before.  Local knowledge is great, but it shouldn't be to the point of not even knowing where to hit your ball.  Also with the blind shots, not having some way to know the group ahead is clear.  This just hurts pace of play and makes the likelyhood of taking a ProV in the face that much higher.  Penalizing good shots.  I've played a few local courses where there is a bunker smack in the middle of the fairway.  Don't hurt me for hitting it down the middle.  Lastly rocks in bunkers.  I know Zinger had to deal with this for a long time, but if you are going to make a bunker let it be sand.  We don't have unlimited budgets and sponsors throwing clubs at us.  If your course makes me hit a shot that is going to damage my clubs I'm most likely not coming back.

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For me it's mostly based on conditions.  I don't need to putt on a marble counter top, or hit off carpet fairways all the time, but you can tell pretty quickly if the maintenance staff takes pride in their course.  There is a certain level of quality and consistency needed to even be considered a good course.

 

Then I really like courses where you have a little variety in the layout.  My course is a links course and you won't see a tree until you get to #13 on the back.  #13 has one tree, #14 & #15 are both wooded and then #16 gets back to the links layout.  It's a nice little change of pace.  I also like variety in some risk reward holes.  I don't need to have a go at every par 5, but it's nice if you can have a shot at getting to a couple of them in 2.  Also depending on the wind we have a par 4 you can drive, but it's uphill and you have to cut over a large hill and the entire area you have to fly is long prairie grass.  Miss it during the summer months and you won't be finding the ball.

 

Lastly something I really like about my course is they have a couple holes with split fairways, 1 par 3 with two sets of tee's, one on the right side level with the green and one on the left side higher on a hill, and one par 3 with two greens they change from day to day.  When you play 50+ rounds on the same course it's a nice added feature that they can change the way some of the holes play from day to day.

 

So my top things I like to see at courses...

 

  • Consistency of conditions.  Especially sand and green speed
  • Variety in holes (some are open and you swing away, some are more target type of golf)
  • Risk/reward holes (going for a par 5 in 2 or driving a green of a par 4)
  • Ability to change the way to course plays from day to day

I'll also add in a couple of biggest pet peeves.  I hate courses with blind shots you have no idea where to hit to unless you've played it before.  Local knowledge is great, but it shouldn't be to the point of not even knowing where to hit your ball.  Also with the blind shots, not having some way to know the group ahead is clear.  This just hurts pace of play and makes the likelyhood of taking a ProV in the face that much higher.  Penalizing good shots.  I've played a few local courses where there is a bunker smack in the middle of the fairway.  Don't hurt me for hitting it down the middle.  Lastly rocks in bunkers.  I know Zinger had to deal with this for a long time, but if you are going to make a bunker let it be sand.  We don't have unlimited budgets and sponsors throwing clubs at us.  If your course makes me hit a shot that is going to damage my clubs I'm most likely not coming back.

 

I agree with pretty much all that has been said thus far.  I especially hate the blind shots. I also hate fairways that are adjacent to each other with nothing to keep balls from flying from the other fairway.  We had a wonderful old tree-lined course and you couldn't see the adjacent fairways; short course but very beautiful.  The city hired a course designer who came in and took out a LOT of trees and put mounds in.  Now you can't see the people playing in the adjacent fairways and balls constantly fly into your fairway from either side.  People get hit; I don't like playing there.  

 

Here's a pet peeve of mine... The course should be playable from several sets of tees, and I don't mean having 4 sets of tees spaced 10 yards apart.  I gave up playing from the back tees many years ago; hell, I rarely play from the blues anymore.  Sometimes the white tees are too far back on some courses, but I will be damned if I play from the red or forward tees (my wife plays from there and she should be playing forward of those; unfortunately, there isn't any tee forward of the red tees for older women).  Personally, I think every course would have a set of tees that play from 4000-5000 yards.  Most forward tees on the better courses usually start at 5200 and go to 5700.  Too long for a lot of people, men and women.

 

As for around the green, I like a challenge but unless the course is specifically for the single digit hcp player who hits drive 280 and has a mid-short iron into the green, the approach shots should be fair.  My wife is a good player (18 hcp) but she can't hit high approach shots that stop quickly.  The types of greens that are real killers for her are elevated with big deep bunkers and no bail out to get near the green.  Every green needs to have a way to approach it without having to go over the hazards.  I also agree that the bunkers need to have reasonable sand.  I can't tell you how many wedges I have that have gouge marks from rocks (not just ones you can't see!)  I will not go back to a course that has poorly maintained bunkers.

 

And let's not forget the clubhouse!  A course will get a lot more play if it has a quality restaurant and bar preferably with a nice view of the course.  I enjoy sitting out on a deck overlooking the 18th green watching (maybe heckling a little) the groups finishing the gangsome behind me.  Talk about pressure putting!

 

I travel a lot and have played at a lot of courses all over the country.  The worse courses are the ones that have a limited amount of land and have fairways that just go back and forth; boring.  I love old courses with lots of trees that are easy to walk, but I also like wide open links style courses.  I think you need a variety; I don't like being stuck on the same course all the time.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Interesting thread. Did you know that Whistling Straits is on a flat piece of property once used as a landing field? It's so called "natural" beauty is fake.

 

I'm a Pete Dye fan. I like holes that provide options so that they are fun across the board. Room off the tee keeps play moving but if you put traps and hazards close to the easier path home you create risk/reward. I like to see tees and greens close so that the course is walkable, two short par fives going in opposite directions, same thing with two long par 4's.

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What makes for a great course?   Magic.

 

It's easier for me to tell you what makes for a bad one, what to avoid.

 

Tricky, gimmicky holes.   Holes that have an artificial twist inserted in them just for the sake of gimmicking up the hole to make it "tougher" or more "signature.   Golf should be relatively organic and natural.   We have a fairly nice, fairly tough links course near us Eagle Mountain that is marred by two "volcano holes"  Short holes that go straight up a steep hill to small platforms on the peak.   When's the last time you played a links course that finishes on a volcano?  They ruin the course for me, I won't play there.

 

Unseeable hazards -  I believe that golf should have dangers and you should be able to see all dangers -- plus you should see some fake dangers that aren't real.   However, a real danger should never be hidden for then it becomes landmine.

 

Blind Tee shots to vaguely defined targets with driver -    Nothing worse than approaching the tee of a par 4 with driver in hand and going, "Okay, where the hell am I supposed to aim?" then relying on a local to tell you to aim for the third little bush on the left, not the greenish one, but the brownish one, but don't hit it too far or you'll go through the fairway. 

 

Forced carries over 200 yards -  There's a great course in Mesquite called Wolf Creek with like a 76/150 rating.   It's not really that hard of a course and quite stunning.  They pump their rating from the tips by forcing 250 yard carries about 5-6 times.  Stupid easy way to make a course hard for the big boys, everyone else loses a dozen balls, then plays from the whites the second round.

 

Inconsistent conditions -   Is it too much to ask to get all greens rolling about the same speed and all fairways about the same firmness?

 

Condo Friggin' Canyons -   Any course surrounded by identical tract homes on every hole like overlapping scales on a fish.   Anything designed by Ted Robinson, the king of California Condo Canyons.

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I agree with the vast majority of responses thus far. I don't want to take this down a negative track, but do want to elaborate a little further on the 'blind tee shot' theme. @manbearpig , @mrsMBP and I played the Turtle Bay Nicklaus course while they were here in Hawaii a few months ago. None of us had played the course before and, expecting GPS in the carts as its a resort course [insert joke about assumption being the mother of all *%#&-ups] no-one took a GPS unit. Not only was there no GPS units, there was no course map on the scorecard, nor were there course maps at the tees. Completely ridiculous in my opioion.

 

On a more positive note, my top 5 things that I'd include if I had the means to create my own course (in no particular order):

  • elevation changes - within moderation. I particularly enjoy the opportunity to tee-off from elevated tees ;)
  • walkability - not only for those who prefer to walk all of the time, but well placed cart paths so that in the event that conditions are not ideal and its 'cart path only' conditions
  • layout/design that takes advantage of prevailing/existing conditions - whether it be wind, natural undulations, native stands of vegetation/trees etc. I want my course to feel at home in its surroundings, not like its been inserted there from a Bermuda Golf publication
  • decent bunkering - I'm referring specifically to having actual sand in the bunkers - not hard-packed 'dirand' (dirt-sand). The bunkering at the majority of the courses I've visited so far here has been awful. 
  • a mix of protected greens and opportunities to run the ball onto the green

That's it - someone write me a giant check and we can get to work!

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Layout is number one. There's nothing worse than a golf course IMO than when it's just long for the sake of being long and that's the only challenge. I like a challenge, but love a course that's more than fair when you hit a good shot, and kills you for a bad one and doesn't favor a long hitter compared to a short hitter. I love courses that vary distances and have multiple holes that have hazards on both sides, or forces you to play different shots. The big knock I had on my college course was that all the trouble was left. Almost every hole, the easiest miss was right... The two courses I loved close to my house were both parkland, both had holes with few trees but lots of variation in geography, or doglegs that were surrounded by trees. Again I hate courses that are open, but keep every hole long to challenge you.

 

Second is the golf courses story, there's something about a golf course that has a good story. Two come to mind and both to me make the course that much more awesome to play... hominy hill in NJ was built by an importer/exporter who dealt with Asian clients... he tried bringing them to a golf course  where he was a member but got turned away because of WWII/Korea. He gave RTJ2 a blank check and bought the land and said build me something. When he died, he gave the course to the county and public. Elon Hills outside of Philly is a reform school for kids, that has kids who were convicted of a crime the opportunity to work at a golf course while going to school. The kids help out all around and it's hope that maybe one sees a member and turns his or her life around.

 

Up keep is something that I don't really kill a course on unless the upkeep is awful. I can deal with a course having issues if the weather is bad or there's a drought, but if the course is in terrible shape, than it does kill the enjoyment but I'm not going out there with a stamp to see if the greens are rolling a 10 or a 12.

 

Of course price comes to mind. A great course ideally has all three things going for it and is cheap. But really as long as it's not overwhelmingly expensive, I'm ok with it. 

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Here's a couple of things I like to see in a great course:

 

One reachable par 4, like 310 to 320 with some challenging bunkering.   Wieskopf is right about this.

 

A few nice but short 4's that have bad hazards crossing the fairways at 295 to 320.   In this way, the course can stay short, but the pseudo-bombers have to check up.

 

More use of Sentinel trees as guardians of the greens.   A couple of signature doozies, like Sawgrass 16 or Pebble 18 can protect the way a hole is approached and give it character.   A guardian tree can scare you off, but if you do hit it, you still have life.

 

Old school long and straight holes with few bunkers, where the shape of the green and its surrounds provides its defense.  I played a 230 yard par 3 today with no bunkers and no water.   Damned tough hole.

 

Other old school touches like truly hazardous pot bunkers such as the Principal's Nose, a Redan or Biarritz green here or there.   A crossing stone wall or ditch.  

 

NO INTERNAL OUT OF BOUNDS HOLES where they have to put OB stakes up just to keep you from cutting corners on open adjacent holes.  That's just a sign of bad design.

 

I'm a fan of the simple, classical and straight-forward so it's no surprise that my favorite architect is Billy Bell of Torrey Pines and about 70 other SoCal and Utah courses.  His courses are never tricked up, they are simple WYSIWYG courses.  You know when you're on a tough hole.   He designed for prevailing winds superbly

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Ahhh, the wind. We have 3 prevailing winds. In the summer it is from the east; in the winter it is from the NW (unless we get a Chinook wind which is warm from the SW). The SW is prevailing in spring and fall. Some short holes play long and long holes play short; of course, there are times when the long holes play really long!

 

Speaking of trees... I played one course that had specific types of trees/shrubs in the rough at 100, 150, and 200. Made it easy to estimate distance. This was before GPS, but I think it would help a lot of players today

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I hate those "Sentinel" trees. :)

 

Actually when placed properly they make a hole exciting, challenging, allow for wide fairways so that there are fewer lost balls, better pace of play and yet accuracy is rewarded.

 

It's interesting that we don't like blind shots because many of the world's great courses have them. The problem with them comes when we are only going to play the course one time. They are there to challenge a golfer who must convince his body to perform when his mind kind see visually how that performance will turn out. I think a few of them are great but again the issue comes at a resort where players are only going to play once.

 

I like Mrak's suggestion about cross bunkers but for 99 percent of the golfing population they need to start at 260, that's where the big bloopers are actually hitting it, they think they hit it 290, so give them a bunker at 255 with a 270 carry.

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I hate those "Sentinel" trees. :)

 

Actually when placed properly they make a hole exciting, challenging, allow for wide fairways so that there are fewer lost balls, better pace of play and yet accuracy is rewarded.

 

It's interesting that we don't like blind shots because many of the world's great courses have them. The problem with them comes when we are only going to play the course one time. They are there to challenge a golfer who must convince his body to perform when his mind kind see visually how that performance will turn out. I think a few of them are great but again the issue comes at a resort where players are only going to play once.

 

I like Mrak's suggestion about cross bunkers but for 99 percent of the golfing population they need to start at 260, that's where the big bloopers are actually hitting it, they think they hit it 290, so give them a bunker at 255 with a 270 carry.

 

I don't even like blind holes that I play frequently.  If I am in a cart, I can run up and look at what's ahead but mostly to see if the group in front is out of range.  If I am walking, I don't do that and have to just judge that the group should be out of range, hoping that they aren't held up for any reason.  I have also had balls land by me from the group behind that doesn't look.  I guess if they can't see you, then you must be out of range. LOL.  Personally, I don't go back to course with blind shots just because of that reason.

 

As for hazards in the fairway, my wife and I played a course in Oregon that had a creek criss-crossing several fairways.  I don't mind that unless it crosses in the wrong places.  For example, from my tee there were a few holes where I felt that if I hit driver, I would be in the creek so I laid up and had a mid iron or hybrid into the green.  OK, I get that, on few holes.  Challenge it if you want; lay up if you don't.  However, from the forward tees many of the holes took driver out of play for my wife, but if she laid up, she was too far back to reach the green in regulation.  Completely unfair.  She is not a long hitter, but she isn't short either, and her diver is probably the best club in her bag.  It seems like for most courses, the position of the forward tees is an after thought.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I hate those "Sentinel" trees. :)

 

Actually when placed properly they make a hole exciting, challenging, allow for wide fairways so that there are fewer lost balls, better pace of play and yet accuracy is rewarded.

 

It's interesting that we don't like blind shots because many of the world's great courses have them. The problem with them comes when we are only going to play the course one time. They are there to challenge a golfer who must convince his body to perform when his mind kind see visually how that performance will turn out. I think a few of them are great but again the issue comes at a resort where players are only going to play once.

 

I like Mrak's suggestion about cross bunkers but for 99 percent of the golfing population they need to start at 260, that's where the big bloopers are actually hitting it, they think they hit it 290, so give them a bunker at 255 with a 270 carry.

 

No, the real big dogs can carry 300 with no problem so a hazard at 270 only hurts the little guys and the pseudo-dogs while the boomers are over and don't think anything about it.   We'll still get stuck hitting our mid irons and they will have 20 yard chips.   These sorts of "hazards" can be done with rugged waste areas, BTW -- you don't need actual water.   The trick is that the green cannot be located too far beyond the hazard so that the short hitters can still get at it comfortably.   Here's an example of what I mean.   No one has ever tried to fly the creek to my knowledge.  There would be no advantage to doing so.

 

Short hole hazard.jpg

 

I have 4 such holes at my local course.   The hazards are wide creeks with berms that really can't be crossed safely except by drives in the 330 carry range.   Ladies and seniors will hit drivers and fwoods short of the hazard comfortably, I hit 3 and 4 irons, but the big dogs have to lay-up grumbling with 5 irons.  And everyone ends up in the same spot, hitting PW to the greens on sub-400 yard holes.  

 

These holes defend themselves against the boomers very well.   Where my course is defenseless are the 5's.   All four are driver short iron for an assured birdie, making the true course rating about a 66 for the big dogs.

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I don't really want to get into that kind of contest but I always feel the need to try and remind everyone from time to time that there are very few guys even on tour who carry the ball 300 - Remember back to the stats that MmmmmmBuddy gave us in the internal SCOR thread - the average tour player carries the ball 270 with the driver.  Lots of people think they carry the ball 300 or hit it 300 with roll out.  There is plenty of statistical evidence out there that suggest that the general golfing public over estimates its driving distance by 30 yards.

 

It's about 1 percent of all players who actually hit the ball those distances - I play a lot of golf and enough competitive golf with other people to know that this is true.  There are tons and tons of very good golfers in Florida because this is a place where the wanna be's come to.  I occasionally encounter a person who hits the ball that far and they are normally practicing in the winter as they prepare to play on the Web.com, the Hooters tour or on break from the college team they play for.  On rare occasion they are a former college player or an athlete who is young and fit.

 

I am in no way disputing whether an individual is among that 1 percent unless I've seen them play and know better.  I know from others that have seen him play that JBones is in the group.  Rookie Blue hits the ball tour distances, not Bubba distances but regular perhaps even regular plus tour distances, I know that because I've seen him hit the ball, I don't know that he'd be anxious to take on a carry of 290 over a hazzard with any sort of regularity. 

 

So before we have people lining up to say they carry it 290 that's not my point - you may - very, very, very few people do.  Since the average person hits it 210 a hazzard at 270 is meaningless to him or her (I played with a lady yesterday who was hitting it that far) and really to all but the longest of amatuer.  It does it's job, it would make someone who carries the ball 290 on occasion think and it would almost certainly force him to lay up. 

 

You and I differ on blind shots and that's fine - I don't like a lot of them and certainly never like them on a course that's meant for occasional play but IMO there is a place for them particularly in tournament golf because they play with people's heads and golf is very much about that. :)

 

Many great old courses have blind shots I most certainly am not going to miss out on a classic layout because of its quirkiness.

 

Having written that I'm totally with you on artificial quirkiness, a hole cramed in to a tight spot to give the illusion of legitimacy because you have to hit 5 iron, 6 iron 4 hybrid on a par five or something like that. 

 

My least favorite architect is Arnold Palmer because he always seems to have one or two of those holes on his courses.

 

Now there's some blasphomy for folks to mull over.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Since I carry both a laser and GPS, I'm pretty sure I know how far I hit every club.   I cannot carry a ball 270 safely, so for me on the hole I cited, a perfectly struck drive will bound in, but never over the creek.   The objective is not to go over, the objective is to stop people from trying.  

 

I'm 55 but I play with kids for whom a 300 yard drive equals "didn't quite catch it."   If you haven't seen these kids, you need to get off the reservation more often.  If the hazard was 20 yards closer in on my example hole, all us regular folks would be punished and have to take an even longer 2nd club into the green.   So the ladies and seniors have to hit fwood/fwood into the green, but the big hitters are over.  It just makes no sense.

 

What I'm arguing for are methods to make holes that don't stretch to 460 yards in order to leash in the big dogs, but which don't play unfair for the rest of us.   Sadly, course design in the last few years has not occurred with Zach Johnson or Jim Furyk in mind.   It has had its eye on these young strong college kids who literally do not know what a par 5 is.  I stood next to the spotter on one of the two measured driving holes of Utah's web.com tour stop and the shortest drive I saw measured was about 330.  Longest was in the 380 range.   These were little guys who were just killing it.   I was amazed at what the young are doing.   600 yard par 5 and the guy I followed hit driver - 7 iron.   That said, I saw not one competitor use a driver the whole front nine because it was so well guarded in dangerous old school ways.   .It can be done.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
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Well said!   There are a lot more of us old guys and gals out here playing than young kids that bomb it 300+.  I agree, the design can be done; but what really is need is redesign of some current courses.  The more fair it is for everyone, the more people will want to play.  If things get bad enough, maybe some of them will.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Since I carry both a laser and GPS, I'm pretty sure I know how far I hit every club.   I cannot carry a ball 270 safely, so for me on the hole I cited, a perfectly struck drive will bound in, but never over the creek.   The objective is not to go over, the objective is to stop people from trying.  

 

I'm 55 but I play with kids for whom a 300 yard drive equals "didn't quite catch it."   If you haven't seen these kids, you need to get off the reservation more often.  If the hazard was 20 yards closer in on my example hole, all us regular folks would be punished and have to take an even longer 2nd club into the green.   So the ladies and seniors have to hit fwood/fwood into the green, but the big hitters are over.  It just makes no sense.

 

What I'm arguing for are methods to make holes that don't stretch to 460 yards in order to leash in the big dogs, but which don't play unfair for the rest of us.   Sadly, course design in the last few years has not occurred with Zach Johnson or Jim Furyk in mind.   It has had its eye on these young strong college kids who literally do not know what a par 5 is.  I stood next to the spotter on one of the two measured driving holes of Utah's web.com tour stop and the shortest drive I saw measured was about 330.  Longest was in the 380 range.   These were little guys who were just killing it.   I was amazed at what the young are doing.   600 yard par 5 and the guy I followed hit driver - 7 iron.   That said, I saw not one competitor use a driver the whole front nine because it was so well guarded in dangerous old school ways.   .It can be done.

I think we are talking past each other here, pros hit the ball far, you have a handicap, I have a handicap we are not touring pros even if we are quite good. The average guy with a handicap such as ours hits it 240. So if you hit it 280 and I hit it 230 we are not far off between us, throw in a couple of other 2's or 3's and we'll be spot on average.

 

The avg carry distance of a PGA pro remains 270 with a driver regardless of how far everyone is bombing it on one driving hole. There will be another hole in another tournament that offsets the long open downhill par 5.

 

If your point is that a course can be designed or set up to negate distance as an advantage I agree. Actually the great course should be set up to proportionally reward distance, it's an attribute, like a great short game, or approach shot or whatever else, it should be rewarded if it can be strategically employed. What I dislike is a course where it's more open where the bombers go than where the average player hits it.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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If your point is that a course can be designed or set up to negate distance as an advantage I agree. Actually the great course should be set up to proportionally reward distance, it's an attribute, like a great short game, or approach shot or whatever else, it should be rewarded if it can be strategically employed. What I dislike is a course where it's more open where the bombers go than where the average player hits it.

 

This is exactly the problem I was trying to articulate early in the thread. Even though it plays to my advantage right now, I don't like the unfair advantage of courses that set up for a single style of play, and handicap another.

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I love this thread because it reminded me of something. the one course I played had 3 trees set up near water that forced you into playing it safe... That prevented the long bomber from hitting driver small iron into the green on a par 5 on their second shot. Once they took the trees down, the scores at the hole went up for the higher handicappers and down a stroke to the lowest handicappers. Basically, now everyone pulls driver, but as is the case, water often claims the higher handicappers second shots. 

 

Another hole had a 60 yard water hazard just before the green. If you were professional long you could go for it in two, otherwise your having to lay up. What I loved so much about these holes is that the strategy isn't always needed, just execution of the shots. Sometimes that's more important is to have a hole simply put everyone on equal terms and let the golfer mess up the shot rather than error in strategy.

 Driver:   :callaway-small:  Epic Flash 12 Degree

Wood: :callaway-small:  GBB 3 Wood
Hybrid: :callaway-small: Razr 4 hybriid stiff stock shaft.
Irons: :callaway-small: X2 Hot 4 iron (pro version) 5 iron - Gap Wedge (non pro version).  KBS 120g Shaft stiff cut 1/2  inch bent 1°upright
Wedges: :vokey-small: 52° 56° and 60°.
All grips are Golf pride grips midsized
Putter (lefty):  Odyssey Metal-X #8 34", stock shaft bent 2° Superstroke grip
Golf Balls:   :titelist-small: 2018-9 Pro-V1x and Prov1s
Shoes:  :footjoy-small:  Dryjoy tours

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I thought the idea of HCPs and tee boxes is to have people of various abilities have similar second shots.  Unfortunately, most courses are limited in the amount of space they have and the tee boxes are not far enough apart.  So the big hitters are hitting driver and a wedge into a par 4 or driver and a mid iron into a par 5, and the average white tee player is hitting driver and a hybrid to a par 4 and the par 5 is always a 3-shot hole.  We have multiple tee boxes for a reason; make them appropriate for the 280-300 yard drive and the 210-230 yard drive.

 

I recently played one course that had a small upslope that ran across the fairway from 200 to 220 from the white tees.  From the tips it was an easy carry and from the forward tees also an easy carry.  But most seniors playing from the white tees can't carry it.  No roll.  This setup favors some players and penalizes others.  

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I thought the idea of HCPs and tee boxes is to have people of various abilities have similar second shots.  Unfortunately, most courses are limited in the amount of space they have and the tee boxes are not far enough apart.  So the big hitters are hitting driver and a wedge into a par 4 or driver and a mid iron into a par 5, and the average white tee player is hitting driver and a hybrid to a par 4 and the par 5 is always a 3-shot hole.  We have multiple tee boxes for a reason; make them appropriate for the 280-300 yard drive and the 210-230 yard drive.

 

I recently played one course that had a small upslope that ran across the fairway from 200 to 220 from the white tees.  From the tips it was an easy carry and from the forward tees also an easy carry.  But most seniors playing from the white tees can't carry it.  No roll.  This setup favors some players and penalizes others.  

Agreed. Some courses really don't stagger yardages that well. One of the courses I played had a difference of a couple dozen yards, but only a slope difference that made it a lot more worthy to move back a tee box.

One thing I noticed and maybe not the biggest issue is that the yardages sometimes aren't reflective of the difficulty. Then again, I wonder how much some people actually pay attention to slope/course ratings when stepping on a course instead of the whites/blues

 Driver:   :callaway-small:  Epic Flash 12 Degree

Wood: :callaway-small:  GBB 3 Wood
Hybrid: :callaway-small: Razr 4 hybriid stiff stock shaft.
Irons: :callaway-small: X2 Hot 4 iron (pro version) 5 iron - Gap Wedge (non pro version).  KBS 120g Shaft stiff cut 1/2  inch bent 1°upright
Wedges: :vokey-small: 52° 56° and 60°.
All grips are Golf pride grips midsized
Putter (lefty):  Odyssey Metal-X #8 34", stock shaft bent 2° Superstroke grip
Golf Balls:   :titelist-small: 2018-9 Pro-V1x and Prov1s
Shoes:  :footjoy-small:  Dryjoy tours

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Agreed. Some courses really don't stagger yardages that well. One of the courses I played had a difference of a couple dozen yards, but only a slope difference that made it a lot more worthy to move back a tee box.

One thing I noticed and maybe not the biggest issue is that the yardages sometimes aren't reflective of the difficulty. Then again, I wonder how much some people actually pay attention to slope/course ratings when stepping on a course instead of the whites/blues

 

I wonder how many courses actually have a "correct" rating and slope (correct by my observations).  I am by no means a rating expert, and I don't pretend to fully understand the concept of rating and slope.  But I have played a lot of courses all over the country and I can say that some do not in my opinion reflect the difficulty on the scorecard.  For example, I recently played a course with a rating of 68.4 and slope 118; typical numbers for a lot of courses from the tee boxes that I play.  But I can say that if I played this course exclusively, my HCP would be up 4-5 strokes.  Conversely, I have played a resort course in Phoenix that had a rating of 68.0 and a slope of 120 where I know that I can consistently shoot under my HCP.  The yardages of the two courses is about the same (the first one is actually about 100 yards less).  The main difference I can see between the two courses is the amount of roll in the fairways.  The first course will typically have very little rollout; softer ground and judicious use of upslopes in the fairway landing areas.  The Phoenix course is typical desert course with firm fairways and lots of rollout.  For me, it's the difference between hitting a FW or hybrid vs a mid/short iron.  I am pretty good with hybrids, but I'll take an iron every time!

 

Here is what GHIN says about course rating:

 

COURSE RATING PROCEDURE

When a golf course is rated, the rating team will evaluate the overall difficulty of the golf course for two players, the bogey golfer and the scratch golfer. A course rating for each golfer is determined during the rating process. The course rating for the scratch golfer will become the USGA Course Rating for the golf course. While the bogey course rating is not normally known by the member club, it is an important factor in determining the USGA Slope Rating for the club.

During their visit the rating team will evaluate the ten obstacles and effective length corrections on every hole. They do not play the course during this portion of the visit. The team has the option of playing the golf course either before or after the actual rating process in order to gain further insight into the overall difficulty of the golf course.Upon completion of the rating visit, the data is inputted into a software program to come to a set of preliminary ratings. The preliminary ratings are then forwarded to the Course Rating Review Committee for their review. The Course Rating Review Committee is made up of the most experienced volunteers on the Course Rating Committee and selected staff. Upon their approval, the ratings are released to the club.

Maybe the raters didn't play the courses since it is optional.  

 

Before I play a course that I have never played before, I look at the tee yardages to determine which tee box to play.  When I am playing with my wife, I look at the forward tee rating and slope and then pick the tee box that comes closest to that.  I can tell you that in many cases it's further back than where I would like!!  

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I wonder how many courses actually have a "correct" rating and slope (correct by my observations).  I am by no means a rating expert, and I don't pretend to fully understand the concept of rating and slope.  But I have played a lot of courses all over the country and I can say that some do not in my opinion reflect the difficulty on the scorecard.  For example, I recently played a course with a rating of 68.4 and slope 118; typical numbers for a lot of courses from the tee boxes that I play.  But I can say that if I played this course exclusively, my HCP would be up 4-5 strokes.  Conversely, I have played a resort course in Phoenix that had a rating of 68.0 and a slope of 120 where I know that I can consistently shoot under my HCP.  The yardages of the two courses is about the same (the first one is actually about 100 yards less).  The main difference I can see between the two courses is the amount of roll in the fairways.  The first course will typically have very little rollout; softer ground and judicious use of upslopes in the fairway landing areas.  The Phoenix course is typical desert course with firm fairways and lots of rollout.  For me, it's the difference between hitting a FW or hybrid vs a mid/short iron.  I am pretty good with hybrids, but I'll take an iron every time!

 

Here is what GHIN says about course rating:

 

COURSE RATING PROCEDURE

When a golf course is rated, the rating team will evaluate the overall difficulty of the golf course for two players, the bogey golfer and the scratch golfer. A course rating for each golfer is determined during the rating process. The course rating for the scratch golfer will become the USGA Course Rating for the golf course. While the bogey course rating is not normally known by the member club, it is an important factor in determining the USGA Slope Rating for the club.

During their visit the rating team will evaluate the ten obstacles and effective length corrections on every hole. They do not play the course during this portion of the visit. The team has the option of playing the golf course either before or after the actual rating process in order to gain further insight into the overall difficulty of the golf course.Upon completion of the rating visit, the data is inputted into a software program to come to a set of preliminary ratings. The preliminary ratings are then forwarded to the Course Rating Review Committee for their review. The Course Rating Review Committee is made up of the most experienced volunteers on the Course Rating Committee and selected staff. Upon their approval, the ratings are released to the club.

Maybe the raters didn't play the courses since it is optional.  

 

Before I play a course that I have never played before, I look at the tee yardages to determine which tee box to play.  When I am playing with my wife, I look at the forward tee rating and slope and then pick the tee box that comes closest to that.  I can tell you that in many cases it's further back than where I would like!!  

I think that is a good point. Sometimes slopes don't really tell you a lot about the course and setup. Distance is misleading... my course in college had 3-4 really short holes... but most were really long... including 2 nearly 3 shot par 4's for someone who hits the ball 250. But then if I move up a tee box, the course gets too easy.

 Driver:   :callaway-small:  Epic Flash 12 Degree

Wood: :callaway-small:  GBB 3 Wood
Hybrid: :callaway-small: Razr 4 hybriid stiff stock shaft.
Irons: :callaway-small: X2 Hot 4 iron (pro version) 5 iron - Gap Wedge (non pro version).  KBS 120g Shaft stiff cut 1/2  inch bent 1°upright
Wedges: :vokey-small: 52° 56° and 60°.
All grips are Golf pride grips midsized
Putter (lefty):  Odyssey Metal-X #8 34", stock shaft bent 2° Superstroke grip
Golf Balls:   :titelist-small: 2018-9 Pro-V1x and Prov1s
Shoes:  :footjoy-small:  Dryjoy tours

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