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I play in the Pacific NW. We do not have Bermuda grass, although some people refer to crabgrass as Bermuda. But I do travel to warmer locations periodically where I must learn to hit out of it. I just got back from 10 days in AZ and 7 rounds of golf.

 

I know many of you play on Bermuda a lot, so maybe you can help me out.

 

Most courses that I usually play have firm fairways, and with a good iron shot on my part, I trap the ball pretty well and get my usual distance. However, on Bermuda fairways it seems like there is no ground underneath the grass. I pick the ball OK, but I don't have the same compression of the ball so it doesn't travel my expected distance. Very frustrating to keep coming up short. I do the same thing in Palm Springs and Florida.

 

Is this common to Bermuda and you have to play more club, or am I doing something wrong? I feel like I could score better if the fairways were firmer.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I lived in Bermuda from 1971 to 1973 and played Port Royal (Home of the Grand Slam).  Other than that, I pretty much agree with Kenny......

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Here in South Texas we have Bermuda on most of the course with baked, hard fairways in the summer and I do not notice a difference in comparison to the Bermuda, lets say in Virginia Beach Va. 

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I think the difference is not so much the Bermuda grass fairways as the soil underneath.  It is much sandier in AZ as it is here in Texas.  I have played in 46 states and find the soils and conditions of the soils the main factor on fairways.

 

Rough and greens are a different issues.  Some Bermuda greens are very grainy and affect the speed tremendously.  I tend not to do well on these.  Mainly because I am not accustom to it.

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I have a real hard time with Bermuda rough.   Takes me a week to adjust.  In SoCal you can go from course to course and get Bermuda on some, but not others.   I would always play worse on the Bermuda courses.

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Yes, some courses with Bermuda are better than others.  I have more of a problem in Florida on fairway shots, but I found one course in AZ that was similar; not much soil underneath.  The rough is always a problem for me everywhere, and don't get me started about the greens!  I agree that it takes me a week to get used to putting on Bermuda.  By then, it's time to go home.  However, putting in Florida is not as difficult as the desert SW and Hawaii where you not only have grain, but also the natural slope off mountains to contend with.  But that's a challenge I have learned to accept, and a reason why I like traveling to play different courses.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I learnd with Bermuda rough you have to come down on the ball "steeper" to pop it out.  Bermuda is NASTY especailly if it is lush,  you will be lucky to find your ball.  The biggest transition for me was putting:  Bentgrass to Bermuda, took me months to get use to the change

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Having not played much (at all?) on Bermuda this has been an interesting thread to read.

Honestly though, I was hoping the thread was about planning a trip to Bermuda to play some golf :)

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I, personally, hate all the hybrid Bermuda greens going in around here. They're cheaper to maintain, yes. And most of the time you can dry them out more and speed them up. I just hate the fact that the ball doesn't spin nearly as much as on bent and it doesn't roll as true due to grain inconsistency. The courses love it because maintenance is cheaper. But the best courses and clubs around here have bent and when the greenskeeper actually knows what he's doing they'll last longer than Bermuda in season and out of season.

 

As for fairways it doesn't bother me. I'm a digger and it doesn't have any effect for me. The only differences I see is when the altitude changes. Even from North Georgia to Florida I notice a difference vs sea level in distance.

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I play Bermuda ever week, from the fairway, you still have to get into the ground, don't "pick" the ball, out of the rough, depending on the lie, you sometimes have to take your medicine for hitting it three, and just take less club, you cannot hit 5 iron from 190 out of the thick Bermuda rough,you have to take 8 or 9 iron come in steep and swing with firm hands and arms to keep the club on path, remember you are only trying to put the ball into a good position from the rough, good contact is important. The greens, well figuring out the grain is very important, because as the ball slows down it will tend to move that direction, and break, if you see lets say 12 inches of break, it will not break that much, it will probably be closer to 7 inches of actual break, and you must keep the speed of the ball up, you have to be ok with a 2-3 footer coming back. If the grass is light colored and shiny, you are putting downhill, if it's dark and greener, you are putting uphill, but check for grain, uphill, down grain will roll different than uphill, into the grain, and the same for downhill putts. An easy way to check grain is to look into the hole, one side will be "sheered" off the other will be clean cut, the clean cut side shows wihich way the grass is laying, if it's laying north to south a putt from the north to the south will be down grain, and a putt from the south to the north will be into the grain, I hope that helps.

Yes the maintainance of the hybrid Bermuda is less, but that's because they don't have to water all the time, at our club it allows the club to cut the greens very short without destroying them. they can Make them lightning fast if they choose. That's just my opinion though.

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That's why greenskeepers like Bermuda, because they don't have to have as much skill to keep them healthy.  And yeah, you can let them dry out to be faster, but I can promise you ,you won't find a track anywhere with bermuda that can get them faster than the local country club's A1 bent.  And putts roll true and smooth, not bumpy like on bermuda.  It's a really good cheap grass though that'll allow clubs that are operating in the red and close to the black to get back on track though.  You can cut bent just as short as bermuda as long as your greenskeeper knows what he's doing to keep the grass healthy.  A skilled greenskeeper is a man that should get a raise at every club nationwide.  Because they're rare.

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Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I've lived in three distinct parts of the country so I think I can reply to this one okay.

 

I guess I'm surprised to hear about Bermuda being an issue in the fairway. Most people prefer Bermuda because the ball sits up. Distance loss from the fairway in Florida comes from being at sea level and if you are here in the summer because it's wet. Play here from December through May and the ball goes fine although you'll never get the roll out with the driver. When you look at the PGA stats the average driving distances are between 20-25 yards shorter here than say at the John Deere, that's the roll out difference.

 

Regardless I will take well groomed Bermuda fairways over northern grasses every time and in Texas or Arizona where the ground is dry the ball goes!

 

I guess if for some ridiculous reason the grain is growing into you on your approach shot I could see an issue. The ground disintegrates if you don't hit it perfectly on an into the grain full shot but it's very rare to see that. There's one spot on one hole at my league course but I avoid that spot as if it were a hazard.

 

Enough has been said about the rough, it's brutal. Since Mark can figure it out in a week I'm going to ask him to come and give me a lesson. :). Actually you'll see tour players do embarrassing things out of 2 1/2 inch Bermuda and unless you have above average club head speed you're wise if you just pitch out to the fairway when it's thick and wet. Into the grain out of thick Bermuda around the green spells huge trouble. The only thing worse is Kakua and that's related to Bermuda.

 

Bermuda greens are tricky because of the grain but it's visible so you just need to learn how to read it. Into the grain the ball is going to bounce some so don't expect to be making many mid length into the grain putts, just get it to the hole. With the short ones hit it firm. I've developed a nice pop stroke and actually like putting on Bermuda though I preferred the greens up North.

 

I'm totally on board with Rookie on those Bermuda hybrid greens. They are easier to putt but they tend to be firm and very difficult to hold if they are dry. TPC Tampa Bay can get ridiculous but you can almost always bounce it onto those greens. The ones that you can't have some slopes that help you hold them.

 

In regards to greens up North, it's a misnomer to call them all bent grass. Most are Poa Ana (sp?) of some sort. That's even true of some better courses. I love bent grass but be careful on those old school bent grass greens that slope back to front. Those down hill putts can be brutal.

 

Kenny, perhaps you just caught those courses as they were transitioning to the winter and the over seeded grass hadn't come in well yet.

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It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Most courses were overseeding, but they won't let players on for a few weeks. I think this is their period for golfers withdrawal. Most courses in AZ are not a problem, but Florida...

 

I agree that most Bermuda fairways are great for a ball sitting up nicely, but if it's all roots underneath, I just take a huge divot and the ball travels less. I'm guessing that I may be hitting just a fraction fat, but with firmer fairways I can get away with it because the club skids slightly into the ball. I don't have a steep angle of attack.

 

Because I don't have a steep attack, the rough is a killer and I just hack it out. Hit it in the fairway is my solution to that. Besides, the pros have people standing out where the ball lands and they put little flags by the ball so the pros can find it. I've lost balls in that stuff!

 

As for the greens, I've learned to read them, but don't get enough practice. It's always a challenge to putt on Bermuda when I first get off a plane; takes a few days to get used to it. Not good at it mind you, just used to it! Florida's not so bad; give Palm Springs a try. Slope goes one way, grain goes another, and the break towards Indio is yet another way. And if you don't live there, which way is Indio?

 

But anyway, I'm with Dave. I wouldn't mind giving Bermuda grass in Bermuda a try!!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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In Kansas the majority of our courses are bent on the greens and some type of non bermuda in on the rest of the maintained areas. The less prominent courses have buffalo everywhere but the greens and chipping areas.

 

When I go south and play in OK and TX I have to force myself to focus on taking a divot. On buffalo and the other grasses around here it just happens because the ball is sitting up on the grass. I find on bermuda fairways they look like it's almost dirt with some grass laying on top of it.

 

I can usually figure out my swing on the range before my first round down there, but one place I can't get it right for a round or two is pitch and chip shots. I never blade my chip shots more than off of bermuda. If I ever end up moving south like I want to I'll have to re-learn how to pitch/chip I think.

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I can usually figure out my swing on the range before my first round down there, but one place I can't get it right for a round or two is pitch and chip shots. I never blade my chip shots more than off of bermuda. If I ever end up moving south like I want to I'll have to re-learn how to pitch/chip I think.

I have a shot that I use at home a LOT. When I miss an elevated green and the pin is close, I can bump it into the grass short of the green and pop it up near the hole. This does not work on Bermuda. It just stops. First time I tried it, I said "Huh?"; the second time, I said "Well, not doing that again."

 

I agree that when they mow the Bermuda fringe very close, chipping isn't easy. I usually putt it if it's close, but I think my chipping would improve if I practiced on it all the time. I find it difficult to chip into the grain. I actually thought about using a hybrid if I can't putt it.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I don't figure it out in a week. I mitigate the damage a bit, them I go home again.

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I don't figure it out in a week. I mitigate the damage a bit, them I go home again.

:)

 

That's what I do too Mark and I live here. Close mown and into the grain, alright anything into the grain is tough. General rule is if it's into the grain and I'm off the green I use hybrid and down grain, putter.

 

Mountain putting is difficult period Kenny because of the optical illusions IMO. At least with Bermuda you can see the grain. I went to the practice green today and it was a foot slower than Tuesday because they over seeded and watered. That made chipping so much fun. Glad I wasn't playing and hope it's not that way Saturday.

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SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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:)

Mountain putting is difficult period Kenny because of the optical illusions IMO. At least with Bermuda you can see the grain. I went to the practice green today and it was a foot slower than Tuesday because they over seeded and watered. That made chipping so much fun. Glad I wasn't playing and hope it's not that way Saturday.

We have lots of mountains up here, and generally I putt pretty well. When you throw in Bermuda... That's a different story!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Speak of the devil, I played in St. George this week. Bermuda fairways and rough, bent greens. So putting was fine. Fairways tough. Rough was easy. Every rough lie was fluffy and teed up. Every fairway lie was thin and slick. Very hard for me. I had to move the ball back in my stance and play it like a hard pan lie.   Grass was so thin that from afar it looked painted on.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
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I hate those really thin lies. We have one course here that is like that. It used to be a great little course with nice grass, but it was renovated about 12 years ago and now I hate it.

 

I like the courses in St. George (well, except one because of the people) and may make another trip there this next year.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I hate those really thin lies. We have one course here that is like that. It used to be a great little course with nice grass, but it was renovated about 12 years ago and now I hate it.

I like the courses in St. George (well, except one because of the people) and may make another trip there this next year.

I guess I've never encountered this, perhaps I'm far enough South or we have a different strain of Bermuda here. I have encountered it with Northern grasses particularly on new courses or in the summer. Firm and thin never bothered me but wet and thin was never a happy combo. It's why I like our Bermuda. We almost never get those types of lies down here.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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 My thin lies were also rather wet due to afternoon watering. Murder. This was the Bermuda with the pipe-cleaner root system that can grab a club-head when it gets thick.

 

Today I played the same course that has 27 holes. The third nine does not have Bermuda through the green and lusher fairways as a result. I think the thin Bermuda is a result of seasonal overseeding that hasn't grown in yet. It had little checkerboard tufts and of course the ball never settled on a tuft.

 

Anyway, I was 3 over on the Bermuda nine and even on the blue grass/bent nine. Much closer approaches on the normal nine.

 

And as Kenny B can attest, few places rival St. George/Mesquite for the number of courses per golfer.   We have 20-25 great desert tracks that are sparsely played.   I paid $43 per 18 with cart on a FRIDAY and a SATURDAY.  As a single playing 36 holes over two days, I encountered exactly 11 people.   Not eleven groups -- two foursomes, another single and a husband and wife -- over 36 holes!

 

Here's a typical hole on a typical course that poor Markb had to suffer through in 75 degree spotless weather with so few people on the course that he had to play 2-3 balls on every hole.

 

stgeorge.jpg

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Very nice - played yesterday, 18 holes, under 3 hours for my 2 some I shot 72 my playing partner 97 so it's not as if we were both lighting it up.  It was 82 out - just perfect.

 

At any rate they've just overseeded the course that we played and the bermuda was very suspect in places so I got a bit of an idea of what you gents are talking about here.  The biggest issues were splotchiness on the greens were the bermuda was still there but the rye grass hadn't taken root yet and some really soft spots in the fairway where there was bermuda seemingly unattached to the ground underneath.

 

I haven't encountered the latter down here before.  I'm wondering if they laid some sod at some point and it hasn't really taken root.  I only play this course a few times a season - it's not a great course but it's cheap and at certain times of the year you can play it quickly.  It's a typical Florida course, winds through condos, lots of water and sand, lots and lots of water and sand -

 

If JBones ever comes down I'm bringing him to this course. :)

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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... there was bermuda seemingly unattached to the ground underneath.

 

I haven't encountered the latter down here before.  

 

I'm surprised because when I have gone to Florida, I encountered it a lot.  Granted, most of it was in the summer and mostly around Naples, but I played a few times in Orlando.  I do remember the worded being at the very nice course at the Marriott Marco Island.

 

Markb suffers a lot with the scenery and scarce golfers.  Don't you feel sorry for him?  I think he should invite us all out there to help out the golf courses.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I've really started to pay more attention to grasses lately, now that I'm trying to put a green in my backyard.   Got to try again next spring.  I didn't kill off all the blue and it grew through the bent.   I also didn't put down enough sand, I need like 3x as much.   So I don't have a real green, I just have a super nice short lawn.   The bent is trying to creep, but it's going dormant.

 

But I did find some invasive Bermuda in my front lawn of the wispy variety that plucks out easily if you grab it.  This is what Rev is talking about, I believe.   It's not really rooted and it can be TOUGH to hit out of.   In Northern Utah it's still considered a weed, although the SL County parks superintendent wants to start using it since it's cheaper and the climate will tolerate it.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
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irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
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  • 2 months later...

I bumped this old topic because I played 36 this weekend on desert Bermuda fairways and rough of the intertwined, thick, pipecleaner root system variety.   The dormant, unwatered rough looked easy because the balls were always accessible, but it absolutely ate me and my Scors alive.  I don't know how you guys do it.   It killed me.   87 and 83 and almost all the goofs were iron related,

 

I'm a digger and I rely on hitting down and through with my Scors.   Not with this Bermuda, that tactic was murder.   Even the slightest miss too far behind the ball and the clubhead either bounced up into the ball or stuck.  I hit MANY 110 yard wedges that only went 60 yards when I looked up at them.   Gradually I got so scared of these "chunks-that-took-no-divots" that I started trying to thin them or pick them.   Heck, a 120 yard skipper that goes over the back was preferrable to a chunk that goes halfway.

 

I've got to get back on bent/blue as soon as I can.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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@ Mark

 

Was the ball sitting on top of the grass?  Usually by this time of the winter it will settle down or they've cut the grass.  We've had such a mild winter that our Bermuda has some life in it - much to my chagrin.

 

It's the worst though when the ball sits up top because it's very difficult to figure out how far the ball will fly - I move the ball back in the stance a hair, grip down, swing easy and play a punch shot under those circumstances but you have to be spot on - It's really tough around the greens because the punch shot option doesn't work there.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I bumped this old topic because I played 36 this weekend on desert Bermuda fairways and rough of the intertwined, thick, pipecleaner root system variety.   The dormant, unwatered rough looked easy because the balls were always accessible, but it absolutely ate me and my Scors alive.  I don't know how you guys do it.   It killed me.   87 and 83 and almost all the goofs were iron related,

 

I'm a digger and I rely on hitting down and through with my Scors.   Not with this Bermuda, that tactic was murder.   Even the slightest miss too far behind the ball and the clubhead either bounced up into the ball or stuck.  I hit MANY 110 yard wedges that only went 60 yards when I looked up at them.   Gradually I got so scared of these "chunks-that-took-no-divots" that I started trying to thin them or pick them.   Heck, a 120 yard skipper that goes over the back was preferrable to a chunk that goes halfway.

 

I've got to get back on bent/blue as soon as I can.

 

 

And this is why I started this thread!  

Where are you playing in Bermuda this time of the year?

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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The issue with Bermuda right now is with chipping, you don't knkw what you will get, you play for the run out and it sticks, and rolls 3 feet, you play it up and to the green and it rolls out 40 feet. Unpredictable, and putting, good luck.

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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For Rev and Kenny -- St. George and Mesquite are about half desert Bermuda and half bent/blue.   The cheaper courses tend to be more Bermuda.   It isn't very similar to thinner, wispier Florida style Bermuda.   This is pipe cleaner stuff, that when it goes dormant or is unwatered is like a thatch straw mat under your ball but still connected via a root structure to the ground.   You think it will be like hitting off of a tufted driving range mat, but nuh-uhhh.  

 

This is the type I'm talking about:

 

bermuda.jpg

 

When they stop watering it, it goes completely brown in all the rough but it still constitutes an intact cushion under the ball, so all shots sit up.   Fairways are just thin ribbons of green surrounded by seas of brown bermuda. 

 

st george winter.jpg

 

Shots that hit any of this stuff don't really bounce much because the cushion absorbs impact and you can't really take any kind of a divot in it.   You scrape up a few fronds of intertwined grass and hopefully hit the ball.  

 

It's very tough on chips, but I have a sweeping putter stroke chip stroke from 30 yards in, so I didn't have many problems with it there.   All my problems were 150 to 50 and I'd say I botched at least half my attempts.  And by botched, I mean BADLY botched.   You hit them, and with your head down you suspect it might have struck a little behind the ball, but then to your horror you look up and see this little chunky flop going 40 yards instead of 120 and you have to do it all AGAIN from 80 yards out.

 

It also affects fairway woods unpredictably because the springy mat gives way when the fwood presses down on it and often you'll get pop ups but take no turf.  Good riddance.  Long and mid irons with my high bounce Speedblades were no problem, however.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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