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Driver/lay up


revkev

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just saw a GPS ad where a pro talked about course management and how a good GPS should suggest to players that they hit less than driver off the tee.

 

When I was younger I would have agreed with this AD in a heartbeat. Give me 2 iron 7 iron over driver wedge because that little old persimmon driver was harder to hit than a 2 iron off the tee.

 

That's no longer the case even for a better player. Modern drivers are ridiculously easy to hit, easier than hybrids, long irons or fairway woods. What little advantage any of the others may have in accuracy is very much offset by distance and club familiarity. We hit driver more frequently in real rounds and in practice than any of those other clubs.

 

For me the driver is always the simplest play off the tee unless there is a significant hazard or narrowing of the fairway with a hazard involved at driver distance. I don't think I'm even close to alone here. I would go so far as to say that barring some other factor hitting something other than driver off the tee is a very poor course management decision.

 

Thoughts?

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It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I'm with you, there is only one par 4 on my course I can't tee off with driver on.  It's a narrow dogleg left and driver goes through the turn and would be either OB or blocked by trees.

 

Driver for me is the safe play off the tee, I feel more confident I'll be in play with that than anything else, and if I miss it's usually not in too much trouble.  That being said I know plenty of golfers that would actually benefit from hitting less than driver off the tee.  For some of the guys I play with it's a banana ball flight and it could be left or right, they would be much more consistent hitting hybrid or a longer iron off the tee. 

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agree In part Rev. Yes driver has become much easier to hit and has taken out some of the more strategic elements of the game - I'm happy to be contradicted but golf is easier than it was in the 80's (and it was easier in the 80's than it was in the50's and all the way back to a man in a kilt).

 

I didn't carry a wood at all until the early 90's (I could hit a 1 iron 220 then though) - those were the days.

 

BUT:

 

A good course should include risk for hitting driver on par 4's, the benefit of the extra distance should be balanced by extra risks. So bunkers should be in play, the fairway narrows etc.

 

In the same way going for the green on a par 5 should include risk.

 

So yes you may hit driver because it's a club your happy with but it should be a fine balance that encourages you to hit other clubs off the tee if you can.

 

At my regular course I may only hit driver 5 times in a round, I'm a decent straight (but not long) driver - it's just not the right club. So hit driver on 3 and the dogleg can mean a lost ball for anything other than perfection, at 4 it can go through the fairway into bushes, at 5 into wind it brings a ditch into play, at 8 in the summer you can run out of fairway, at 9 you don't get a full shot into a raised green and can't hold the surface, 13, 15, 17 and 18 all (depending on wind direction) can vary from 4 iron to driver because of bunkers, lakes or trees.

 

At another regular course it'll come out 12 times, nothing much changes that. At a true links course, one day it might come out loads and another none at all. If you can't trust a 3 wood, hybrid or long iron off the tee then you will get found out.

 

I guess certain parts of the world though have different types of courses and the games played differently.

 

As for the advert GPS shouldn't suggest anything, that's an intrinsic part of the game for you to weigh up the risk.

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I agree with you for the most part. I played Wednesday and was hitting my driver well but I tried to play it safe on #4 and #5 of a course I've never played before. Hit 3 hybrid and 3 wood respectively. My buddy tried to talk me into hitting my driver and I thought I was making the smart play and ended up hitting both of them thin and took doubles on both. The rest of the day I hit my driver and even though I only ended up with 5 fairways I at least had the distance to make up for it. On a different note last week I played and had 205 into a par 5 over water and laid up to play it safe because I didn't want to hit the ball in the water. I laid up to 80 yards then proceeded to chunk two balls in the water and took a 9.

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Unless it's a funky hole where the driver would go through the fairway, it's always a driver. Anything else usually means not getting to the green on Par 4's. I have found that the gps usually shows that I can aim at bunkers knowing that I can't get there. If I can get there then I just aim someplace else. :)

 

I played one course this summer where I had to hit a 2H off the tee on a sharp dogleg right Par 4 to keep from going through the fairway. But that left more than a 3W to the green. Poor course design.

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Agree Rev. I am a heck of a lot more confident with driver than with any other club in the bag off the tee.

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I used to take less club off the tee because I used to have zero confidence in the driver. Especially once I started my lessons cause I gained so much distance with all the clubs. A 300 yard drive isn't much when 75 of that is to the left or right of the target.

 

This past season that changed, with the SLDR and more practice driving became a big strength so now I pull it pretty much every time. Unless there is some serious trouble I feel I can be in a better position with the driver than a long iron now.

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Very interesting set of replies.

 

Westy I suspect that the ball doesn't roll out on most of our course as it does on yours. For me in the summer it's 95 percent carry on all tee shots, seriously. I've certainly played in places where it might be 75 percent carry and that brings a whole other set of issues.

 

I like what I'm reading, for me and I suspect many other golfers it's a confidence thing. I'm very confident with driver, I hit it more often, practice with it more often, I know what to expect. And so for me the better strategy is to adjust the line rather than hit three wood to lay up short of something like a normal fairway trap or dogleg run through. I'm going to hit the driver close to the way I want 90 percent of the time and the 3 wood 75 percent. There has to be 1 stroke penalty trouble in play for a slight miss and almost absolute safety for the 3 wood if it's to be a wise choice to not hit driver. On rare occasion it's a yardage, angle thing. Number 10 on my course has a back left pin placement that is best attached from the right side of the fairway just short of the trap. With driver it's a downhill lie and 85 yards over a deep trap to a tight pin and very little room to fit the ball in vs. 110 level or uphill lie down the length of the green.

 

But that's a rarity.

 

I also play with people who struggle with driver but they struggle with the other clubs as well. They need to take lessons way more than clubbing down off the tee. Until they take lessons they should club down to avoid loosing balls and taking penalty strokes, assuming their goal is to make the lowest score possible and be frugal.

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SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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The two courses I play the most are very different.  One has narrow fairways and some short doglegs that create tree or rough issues for anything not landing in the fairway.  On that course, I may only pull my driver out 5-6 times a round.  The other course is longer and generally has wider fairways, so I play driver on almost everything except par 3s.

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I think it has to do with age and equipment. Like Rev said the old persimmon drivers were a bear to hit off the tee back in the day. I am straighter now than I ever was I think it is due to two factors for me the equipment and my swing speed has slowed down. I hardly lay up off the tee now. and I also have more shots with the driver than ever before. To reduce distance I can tee higher and hit a high cut instead of my bullet stinger. In all honesty I think for me it is the slower swing speed because I still play some vintage golf with persimmon woods and I actually hit my persimmon straighter than I ever did back in the day. Not nearly as far but straighter. I do know that on the metal woods it is the equipment because I hit my modern driver almost as far as I did my persimmon in my 20s and 30s.

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I am the opposite of Revkev.  I hit my 3 wood whenever possible because I can hit it 235 down the middle of the fairway 90 percent of the time.  Its crazy how big of a difference it is from my driver to me 3 wood.  My driver can get so bad sometimes its horrible.  At the championship of our high school season, I did not hit a single fairway with my driver after the first hole, where I bombed one right down the middle.  It got so bad that on 11, I hit it 100 yards forward, and no joke 100 yards right.  On 14, I hit a tree 50 yards in front of the tee box that is not supposed to be in play at all.  I benched it after that, and I even hit my 3 wood on a 460 yard par four #17, where I proceeded to make par.  Somehow, I shot 75 and finished 6th because my short game and my iron game were incredible that day.  

Lately though, I've been working to shorten my swing, and my driver has been coming around, but I have been stopped by this 30 degree weather.

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The two courses I play the most are very different. One has narrow fairways and some short doglegs that create tree or rough issues for anything not landing in the fairway. On that course, I may only pull my driver out 5-6 times a round. The other course is longer and generally has wider fairways, so I play driver on almost everything except par 3s.

I would still hit driver because I'm straighter with it and unless there is some serious yardage restriction on this holes I'd like my chances putting the driver in play than anything else. JPC your three wood is my driver. In some ways that proves the point I'm trying to make. In your case it's a 3 wood. Most of us have a go to club that we should hit almost all the time. That's a dramatic change from when I was younger.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I'm going to be a contrarian here, in part.

 

I'm no better off the tee with my 3 wood than my driver, so if it's a tight hole, I'll probably still hit driver.

 

That said, I found myself backwards engineering my game based on GPS data a bunch this year in order to avoid the 80 yards and under "touch" wedge.   The courses I play regularly have a bunch of short fours, and If I nuke some drivers I face trouble or touch wedges, which I have a hard time getting close.  But a new 17 degree, 40.5 inch 3 iron gets me straight and somewhere between 230 and 250 off the tee.   (I can't hit it at all off the deck though.)   So in order to avoid those short wedges, I find myself teeing with the 3 iron between 2 to 5 times a round.  Even if I miss the 3 iron and it goes say 210 in a worm burner, well I'll still have a 9 iron or so and that's not usually a problem.

 

I think this has helped me quite a bit and it is due to a firmer knowledge of the exact distances I hit each club thanks to the shot feature on my gps.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
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I'm going to be a contrarian here, in part.

 

I'm no better off the tee with my 3 wood than my driver, so if it's a tight hole, I'll probably still hit driver.

 

That said, I found myself backwards engineering my game based on GPS data a bunch this year in order to avoid the 80 yards and under "touch" wedge.   The courses I play regularly have a bunch of short fours, and If I nuke some drivers I face trouble or touch wedges, which I have a hard time getting close.  But a new 17 degree, 40.5 inch 3 iron gets me straight and somewhere between 230 and 250 off the tee.   (I can't hit it at all off the deck though.)   So in order to avoid those short wedges, I find myself teeing with the 3 iron between 2 to 5 times a round.  Even if I miss the 3 iron and it goes say 210 in a worm burner, well I'll still have a 9 iron or so and that's not usually a problem.

 

I think this has helped me quite a bit and it is due to a firmer knowledge of the exact distances I hit each club thanks to the shot feature on my gps.

 

 

I would call this more a refinement than contrarian.  I will hit driver straighter and more solidly than 3 wood or hybrid and about the same as 5 wood.  So if it's tight, I'm hitting driver.  The exceptions are as follows:

 

1.  The driver goes into a tight area that is bordered on both sides by penal hazzards of some sort - water,  bunkering with high lips, trees or exceedingly high rough - this rarely happens but if it's there I'm laying up.

 

2.  The driver will get me inside of 60 yards - If I'm swinging well and the pin isn't hidden, I'll go for it but if the pin is hidden or I'm not swinging well I'll lay up.

 

Neither of those two occur that often although I have a hole on my home course where I almost never hit driver because of all of the above - water on the left, trees, deep bunker on the right - the trees are actually worse than the water because if you hit it in the trees you may be forced to bring the water into play pitching out while trying to avoid the bunker. 

 

I go three wood or five wood there and hope for the best because if you over draw it everything slopes to the water - bad hole for me!

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I should have clarified that I AVOID the 50-80 yard touch wedge in favor of a full wedge with another club.   I've got reliable full shots for 85,95,105, 115, 120, 125, 135, 140, 150.   But truthfully, I never know how far a little half or easy 58 degree touch wedge shot is gonna go.   I may chunk it short or skull it over.

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I'm no better off the tee with my 3 wood than my driver, so if it's a tight hole, I'll probably still hit driver.

That is how I've always approached this idea. My three wood is usually in the bag to hold the towel. It's gotten better lately, but it is no real weapon. 3H is probably a better play, but hitting that 3H twice on longer par 4's is annoying.

 

Driver -> 9i/PW sounds just fine to me.

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I'll weigh in here, for most of the year, now almost over, I have been carrying Driver, 3 wood, 5 wood, 3 hybrid, 4 hybrid, 5-P 52 & 58 wedge. Of course if I am going to get into trouble I will club down, but also the wind will effect the club that I use.  On really windy days, I will often use the 3 wood off the tee, into the wind.  I have a 13* Titleist 980F with a Proforce V2 shaft.  I can hit a line drive right down the middle with this club.  I also carry a 17* with a high launch shaft.  I will hit the Driver or the 17* with the wind and the 13* into it.

 

I find that most of time, I try to overswing into the wind, which will put side spin on the ball, and have disastrous results, but the 3 wood will end up in better shape.

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I think Driver is always the play unless trouble lurks right in your landing area.  (Not a bunker on one side or the other.)  As courses go away more and more from lush rough to fast, firm "brown" conditions, driver is going to be the play more and more, not less and less, IMO.

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Welcome MyGoBlue if I haven't written it elsewhere.

 

In the end my point is that most of us - not all but overwhelmingly most of us will hit the driver more consistently off the tee than any of our other distance clubs because our drivers are more forgiving and we hit them way more often both on the range and under pressure.  For the most part we also lack the distance to be fooling around with laying up unless we are there are a reasonable probability that we will loose a stroke at driver distance.

 

Sometimes we watch way too much TV and we begin to believe our game bears a resemlance to what we see on the PGA tour when it does not.  We see a pro hit long iron/hybrid 270 on fast firm fairways and then have 5/6 iron on the their second shot from 200 on a 470 yard par 4 and the next thing you know we are trying to do the same thing because it makes us look smart when the reality is that we are being very, very stupid.

 

Be honest with yourself - regardless of the yardage you hit it or think you hit it - how often do you hit the green with 5/6 iron?  How often do you hit it close?  Don't you more frequently miss the green and make bogey?  Isn't it more likely that you will miss the green, leave yourself totally out of position and make double than make birdie with a mid iron in your hand?  If I'm not careful that applies to me and I'm a low single digit handicapper so I know it applies to the overwhelming majority of folks here even if there are exceptions. 

 

Which will you do better with?  Driver/9 iron or hybrid/6 iron?  I'm taking driver 9 iron every time - off the tee I hit driver better and I will make par 90 percent of the time with a 9 iron in hand birdie 5-7 seven percent of the time and bogey or other the rest of the time with the other being 1 or 2 times a season.  Hybrid/6 iron the birdie is going to come 1 or 2 times a season - maybe more but not much - the bogey/other probability is going way, way up, too.  That's an honest reflection on the state of my game but it's also an observation on the games of lots of other folks that I play golf with most of whom don't score as well as I do for a wide variety of reasons.  This is one of them and it's not the least of the one of thems.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Crap, today I just contradicted myself to my own demise.

 

Played nine and on the 5th hole (short 4) with water left and right, I always hit the 3 iron to about 230-240 where I'll have a 9 or PW in.   Today the tees were back and a fivesome in front of me waves me through.   They are standing on both sides of the fairway about 200 out.   I don't want to hit them, so I pull the driver, pipe it over their heads, and I'm sitting 71 yards from the pin.   EXACTLY the distance I just said I don't like and why I always lay up on this hole.  

 

I take a Scor 58, choke all the way down, but this will only get me to 85 with a natural swing.   So I try to 3/4 it as best I can.   A touch shot. 

 

Well I hit it too good and it rolls out to about 87.   45 foot come-backer.   3 jacked it.

 

I am such a STOOPID.  I called it, and then did it anyway.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
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irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
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Mark let me give you a little suggestion on distance control with the wedges but you have to practice it to do it. I for one have trouble with half swing wedges so for my distance control I aim left of the target and open the face some and swing full. I have done it like that so long that I have it gauged for certain distances. It may or may not work for you but you do need to practice it to get it dialed in

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I would encourage a lot of you to read Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie before getting dead set on course management. You would be surprised by the scoring advantage by taking driver off the tee versus a 3 iron. Granted, most of the book is done with pro stats, but amateur stats are brought in to play quite a bit. I know that pros are deadly with short irons, but golfers at all levels are more confident with a 9 iron in their hand versus a 6 iron. Don't get me wrong, I'll admit that some times it's not worth bringing trouble in to play with a driver and I'll pull out a 2i hybrid, but for the most part, it's driver all the way. 

 

I don't want you guys to think that I'm tied to this book by any way. I just read the book over the summer and it has really changed the way I practice and approach a course. Also, if you're in to numbers, this book is right up your alley. 

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I would encourage a lot of you to read Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie before getting dead set on course management. You would be surprised by the scoring advantage by taking driver off the tee versus a 3 iron. Granted, most of the book is done with pro stats, but amateur stats are brought in to play quite a bit. I know that pros are deadly with short irons, but golfers at all levels are more confident with a 9 iron in their hand versus a 6 iron. Don't get me wrong, I'll admit that some times it's not worth bringing trouble in to play with a driver and I'll pull out a 2i hybrid, but for the most part, it's driver all the way. 

 

I don't want you guys to think that I'm tied to this book by any way. I just read the book over the summer and it has really changed the way I practice and approach a course. Also, if you're in to numbers, this book is right up your alley.

 

Okay I give up you're about the tenth person to recommend this book. I always read something at the time share the week after Christmas just for fun. It's usually John Grishom so I'll try and squeeze this one in too. I haven't read the book but my eyes have seen lots of shots in their day and I know what they've seen. If you have a handicap it's almost always best to hit driver.

 

@Mark he who has never done that may cast the first stone. My guess is that you'll be safe.

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There are many courses where driver will not work, if you are a short hitter and are really accurate, then driver may work for you on most tee shots, but if you are a longer hitter there are some courses and tee shots on those courses where driver is simply not the best option. I used to play hit driver all the time, but that isn't always the correct play, no to say that less than driver will be a perfect shot, but it may give you a better option for the tee shot than driver

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There are many courses where driver will not work, if you are a short hitter and are really accurate, then driver may work for you on most tee shots, but if you are a longer hitter there are some courses and tee shots on those courses where driver is simply not the best option. I used to play hit driver all the time, but that isn't always the correct play, no to say that less than driver will be a perfect shot, but it may give you a better option for the tee shot than driver

 

 

There are always exceptions but the issue here is that the average golfer drives the ball 210 - 210 - that means on a 380 yard hole it's driver 5 iron for the average golfer - he sees a touring pro on TV hit 2 iron 7 iron on a 440 yard hole and suddenly he gets the brilliant idea that he can do the same thing.

 

I see it all the time.

 

As a 6 I doubt you have this problem and you have a much better sense of how far you hit the ball.  You and I only tend to over estimate how far we drive it by 10 yards or so - the average guy by 40.  I've put this thread up for the average guy.  Having said that I still think the driver is the right play for 90 percent of all golfers 90 percent of the time because they will hit it better than the other options. 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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There are always exceptions but the issue here is that the average golfer drives the ball 210 - 210 - that means on a 380 yard hole it's driver 5 iron for the average golfer - he sees a touring pro on TV hit 2 iron 7 iron on a 440 yard hole and suddenly he gets the brilliant idea that he can do the same thing.

 

I see it all the time.

 

As a 6 I doubt you have this problem and you have a much better sense of how far you hit the ball.  You and I only tend to over estimate how far we drive it by 10 yards or so - the average guy by 40.  I've put this thread up for the average guy.  Having said that I still think the driver is the right play for 90 percent of all golfers 90 percent of the time because they will hit it better than the other options.

 

Rev, you are right, except that if the average golfer drives 210, he will likely have to hit a hybrid for the second shot on a 380 yard hole.

 

I am probably pretty average, and I'm going to hit driver on every hole that's over 250 yards, except when faced with a sharp dogleg where my drive might run through the fairway. Since I hit most fairways, I'll take the risk for a shorter second shot, rather than hit less than driver and probably not get to the green with a 3-wood. I hate playing holes that I have to hit 3-wood or hybrids all the time for second shots, particularly when I have been doing so well with the SCORs.

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