Putting

[Kenny B]

There has been a lot of discussion about putting, but my wife asked a question that I can't answer. She heard on the golf channel that, for a right-hander, a left-to-right putt is harder to make than a right-to-left putt, putt being equal otherwise. Why?

 

Over the last few years I have sort of become a reasonably decent putter, but I know that when I go to an unfamiliar course and spend an hour (yes, an hour) on the putting green before a round, I will make more right-to-left putts than left-to-right. I attribute it to the natural tendency to swing the putter in a slight arc even though I am a SB-ST putter

 

She says fiddle faddle; it's all in my head. Is it more difficult?

[Tophand576]

I may need to re-confirm this on the practice green, but I feel like L-R putts seem easier to me because I "feel" more open to the hole and have better vision. Statistically this may not be true, but I am definitely more comfortable with a L-R putt. May have something to do with my natural tendency to hit a fade on full shots?

 

Or, maybe, I am just a lousy putter. I would not argue against that assessment.

[BIG STU]

I have to agree with Top Hand on that one. I do putt left to right putts better and My stock shot is a fade. On a right to left putt I do have to concentrate more to try to hit my point and get the speed right. On a left to right break I do tend to die the ball more. I used to be a good putter but now I have become a streaky putter I guess it is due to age and I don't practice like I used to (every day). In a nutshell I guess it is like everything else in golf subjective to your stroke and method of doing it.

[revkev]

I absolutely agree with BigStu, your stock shot will be your preferred break if you are a better player. I also think that there will be a tendency for every player to prefer a break going one way or the other. Generally the issue is not reading enough break going the other way.

 

I prefer right to left breaking putts,because that's what my eye sees.

[Kenny B]

Interesting! I am not sure why I do better on right-to-left putts because if anything, my natural shot tendency is a fade. Maybe there is hope for a draw in my future!?

 

So, the GC guys are wrong again. Maybe that's why they make silly statements like: "If the putt is on the right line and has the right speed, it will go in the cup."

[RoverRick]

Statistically, uphill are easier than downhill and right to left are easier than left to right.  But this can be taken a bit farther.  Let's say on a simple green, slopes back to front and fairly level from the sides.

 

I have spared no expense creating this chart.

 

Based on this theory, you want to leave yourself a putt in zone 1 or 2 of this chart and avoid 5 and 6.

 

 

[revkev]

I hate to contradict a friend but I've seen several recent studies that suggest that more downhill putts are holed than uphill putts. What those stats never seem to report is percentage of three putts. I'm very confident that there are more three putts when the first putt is downhill than flat or uphill.

[RoverRick]

I hate to contradict a friend but I've seen several recent studies that suggest that more downhill putts are holed than uphill putts. What those stats never seem to report is percentage of three putts. I'm very confident that there are more three putts when the first putt is downhill than flat or uphill.

 

Statistics are crap anyway.  I thought about this today while on the course. I had 14 pars and 13 of them were putts from 4-18" from all directions around the hole. It makes no difference when they are tap ins. I had 5 chips to that range (counting putting from off the green) and the rest were two putt pars. I had only one birdie putt from inside 10' and missed it. But I digress...

 

The bottom line is no matter where the putt is closer is better.  Worry about speed. If you get the speed right, you will almost always be within a few feet of the hole.

 

As far as downhill vs uphill putts go, I can think of two instances today where we had 4 downhill putts and later hole we all had uphill putts. Only one of these putts went in the hole. (my uphill putt). However, on the down hill putts, I stopped mine within a foot of the hole, and we had the other go 12-18 feet past. Technically, my putt ended in the zone 6 I listed above and they ended up in zone 1.  Statistics from just that hole would say that since I two putted from zone 5 to 6 and then in, those were easier, because the other had straight up the hill putts.  But 12" putts are many times easier than 12' putts.

[Kenny B]

Statistically, uphill are easier than downhill and right to left are easier than left to right.  But this can be taken a bit farther.  Let's say on a simple green, slopes back to front and fairly level from the sides.

 

FullSizeRender.jpg

I have spared no expense creating this chart.

 

Based on this theory, you want to leave yourself a putt in zone 1 or 2 of this chart and avoid 5 and 6.

 

Here we go with the Statistics again...

 

I love the chart, and I think I agree with right to left being easier.  But with the responses so far, statistically it's dead even.  Maybe my wife is right and it's all in my head.

[revkev]

BTW every statistical analysis that I've read has said what Rick said - forget downhill or uphill closer is better - almost always.

 

This is another tour fooler - we see the guys on tour playing at Augusta or the US Open and they are avoiding downhillers like the plague -

 

No matter what we may think our greens are not that severe - they just aren't - it's a different world. 

 

For us closer is better and trying to hit it hole high by taking an extra club on the approach shot is the best way to hole more putts regardless of break and we've drifted a long way from the threads intent.

[Kenny B]

BTW every statistical analysis that I've read has said what Rick said - forget downhill or uphill closer is better - almost always.

 

This is another tour fooler - we see the guys on tour playing at Augusta or the US Open and they are avoiding downhillers like the plague -

 

No matter what we may think our greens are not that severe - they just aren't - it's a different world. 

 

For us closer is better and trying to hit it hole high by taking an extra club on the approach shot is the best way to hole more putts regardless of break and we've drifted a long way from the threads intent.

Well, closer is better in some cases. I would rather have an 10 foot uphill putt (don't care which way it breaks) than a 5 footer from pin high or above on really fast greens. That's a recipe for 3jack.

 

Rev, you're right about the pros playing on much more severe greens than we do. I was at Torry Pines the week before the 2008 US Open and those are some scary greens.

 

I was more concerned with how your eye sees R to L vs L to R putts of equal length (and difficulty), as well as your ability to put the correct stroke on it. On L to R putts I think I miss more because I don't trust my read so my mind "makes" my body go for the hole. Most of my misses on L to R putts are for not enough break. It's the same whether uphill or downhill. Reads for R to L putts are not affected so much

[revkev]

I'll go back to the beginning of the thread - I'm sure that some of us "see" right to left better while others see left to right better.

 

Perhaps it has to do with dominant eye but I would still maintain it has to do with how you flight the ball. 

[Kenny B]

Maybe it's dominant eye. I flight the ball a little L to R when not straight, but R to L putts are easier.

[BIG STU]

I have to agree with Rev again (as usual) I have always thought it had to do with the dominate eye. I play right handed but my left eye has always been my dominate eye. I found it out when I got my driver's permit at age 15. The examiner was a friend of ours whome I had played a many round of golf with. When he did the standard eye test at the time he remarked no wonder you are such a good putter you are left eye dominate. Now Rover mentioned something about where you leave the putt and I guess that is something to think about though I honestly never did I thought back in the day I could make everything I stood over but he does have a good valid point.

As far as fast fast tight greens some folks have no idea and neither did I until 1980 or so. I did the U S Open qualifier sectional at a local course that I had played a bunch over the years and granted they had slick fast greens and the course was tricked up somewhat but I qualified for the regionals. went to Eastlake in Atlanta and boy talk about slick fast greens wow. I think I 3 jacked 6 greens that first day and that was unheard of for me in those days. I think I shot 84. the second day I ONLY 3 jacked 3 greens and shot 80 of course the first day did me in anyhow but I was hoping for a miracle

[Mr_Theoo]

There has been a lot of discussion about putting, but my wife asked a question that I can't answer. She heard on the golf channel that, for a right-hander, a left-to-right putt is harder to make than a right-to-left putt, putt being equal otherwise. Why?

 

Over the last few years I have sort of become a reasonably decent putter, but I know that when I go to an unfamiliar course and spend an hour (yes, an hour) on the putting green before a round, I will make more right-to-left putts than left-to-right. I attribute it to the natural tendency to swing the putter in a slight arc even though I am a SB-ST putter

 

She says fiddle faddle; it's all in my head. Is it more difficult?

 

I tend to agree with your wife on this one. For me the direction the putt breaks isn't any harder left-to-right or right-to-left. I don't really have any reason why it doesn't matter or effect me.

[jbil8802]

As a lefty (even though I'm right hand and right eye dominant and do everything else right-handed) I use to prefer putts that broke left to right. Since I bought my Ketsch and my confidence has gone up I don't seem to care anymore. I think it's more mental than anything.

[Kenny B]

So I wonder why the Golf Channel guys say that L to R putts are more difficult? Not sure what their basis is for that determination. I'm not saying that I don't make those putts but if I set up a drill station, I know I will make a couple more R to L putts. And it may be that I am right eye dominant.

 

OK, I'll tell my wife that she's right and I'm a mental case, but I think she already knows.

[jbil8802]

I've heard the guys on the GC say it too. I think the common theory is that most people tend to not play enough break on putts that break away from them. I'd say that probably applies to me. I've just never seen any studies on it.

[Kenny B]

I say it's true that most people don't play enough break... on any breaking putt. However, I think in my case I start with enough break, but right before I stroke the putt on L to R putts, my right eye wants to "move" my stroke to the right so I miss low. (It's actually a little worse with bigger breaks than smaller breaks.) The miss is compounded on really fast greens because the ball is going bye-bye. I need to set up more L to R drills and learn to trust the read; I just don't putt it on my intended line.

[wbealsd]

I've heard the guys on the GC say it too. I think the common theory is that most people tend to not play enough break on putts that break away from them. I'd say that probably applies to me. I've just never seen any studies on it.

FWIW, it may just be that most golfers play right handed and putt with an arc from right to left, so there's a bit of sidespin that could keep the ball from breaking the other way.

[RoverRick]

The reason that they are saying it was the book that came out last year, and then a related article in GD where they did the statistical analysis of the pros. I forget the names and briefly perused my old GD's last night to see if I could find it to post here, but did not. I was using my memory of this article when I made the pie chart on the previous page.

 

In it this guy studied like 5 or 6 years of PGA Tour statistics to come up with this. He is not claiming this for a 32 handicapper, who misses as many from either side, but claiming the pros miss more in one direction than the other.

 

I have also read that "side spin" on a putt will only effect the ball the first couple of inches of roll. However, that is an important couple of inches. Pull or push one and I often know in the first couple of inches if it has a chance.

[Kenny B]

 In it this guy studied like 5 or 6 years of PGA Tour statistics to come up with this. He is not claiming this for a 32 handicapper, who misses as many from either side, but claiming the pros miss more in one direction than the other.

 

I have also read that "side spin" on a putt will only effect the ball the first couple of inches of roll. However, that is an important couple of inches. Pull or push one and I often know in the first couple of inches if it has a chance.

So the conclusion I am coming up with is... I putt like a pro. Thank you!

 

I agree on knowing in the first couple of inches. You just know if you put a good stroke on it. I think if I miss a putt, my tendency is to miss both L to R and R to L putts with a push. I don't know this for a fact, and I think I will keep track of this stat next spring... Just to see.

[RoverRick]

 and I think I will keep track of this stat next spring... Just to see.

 

It is important to know what you are doing right or wrong, but don't get too wrapped up in it. I mostly think about "Is the ball reacting the way I think it should?"  "Is my speed right?" " Am I over reading or under reading the break?"

 

I mention this because I do not want to have the thought "I hit the last one too hard." or "I pulled the last two putts,"  If I allow these thoughts in my head I begin to think about the stroke. I don't care about the stroke. I care only about holing the putt with the perfect speed.

[Kenny B]

It is important to know what you are doing right or wrong, but don't get too wrapped up in it. I mostly think about "Is the ball reacting the way I think it should?"  "Is my speed right?" " Am I over reading or under reading the break?"

 

I mention this because I do not want to have the thought "I hit the last one too hard." or "I pulled the last two putts,"  If I allow these thoughts in my head I begin to think about the stroke. I don't care about the stroke. I care only about holing the putt with the perfect speed.

I don't think that will be a problem. I keep track of some stats when I play (covered in another thread), so I will just add a note on the type of putt.

 

If I practice enough on a new course before play, I generally don't have speed issues. That said, there have been courses where I am playing very defensively on putts because of the combination of slope, grain, terrain and stimp (also already discussed in the Bermuda thread). I hate guessing on putts!! But I don't get too upset if I hit the putt where/how I wanted.

[BIG STU]

Kenny I will give you one point of constructive criticism if I may and remember I am NOT a golf instructor. You stated you get "defensive" on certain putts. I actually fell into that bad habit myself a while back and putted like crap until I got myself out of it. I have always putted aggressively period. When I was in my prime I believed I could make every thing I stood over period! So what if I blew it past 4 feet or so I figured I could make the comeback anyhow. I was also aggressive with my wedge play also.

yesterday I played in a small dollar money match involving several teams. It was my first real round out with a Nike 003 putter but I have practiced with it a lot recently. Now I have not hit many balls recently so my ball striking was off. But even in my hey days I missed a lot of GIR and depended on my aggressive wedge game and aggressive putting. Had to do it yesterday but had 4 par saves with the putter and 3 birdies getting aggressive with the wedges and putter. In the past few months I had sorta toned it down some in aggressiveness and it showed in my overall performance. RR and I have always agreed on the 'instinct putting" method and after he explained it and wrote about it however many years ago I realized that is what I done for years and I think aggressive putting goes along with it.

A good example on tour is not a flashy guy by any means and has an absolutely ugly swing but he has made the tour and kept his card and won. That person is Tommy Gainey. He can putt the lights out. I got a phone call a few years back before he was even on big break telling me if he came down here hustling to watch out!! this caller is a lifelong friend of mine He told me this guy has the most butt ugly swing you ever seen and hits it a ton but the main thing is "he is an aggressive putter like you even more so absolutely no fear at all on the green" Got to meet him a few years later through a another friend of mine and yes he is aggressive as heck on the greens.

Sorry to ramble but I will give you a food for thought  "get aggressive no fear on the green"   Hope I helped you Stu

[Kenny B]

Thanks Stu,

I am pretty aggressive but when I travel and play a course that I am not familiar with, I have to get some confidence on the greens before the round. This year I played a couple of courses that just were hard to read; slope, mountains, and Bermuda which I am not used to. I could not get the speed right; line was OK, but if I putted like I usually do, I was either short or waaay long. I was not trying to make a putt, just trying to not 3-putt. So that's what I mean about defensively. Once I get used to it, I'm fine, but it takes a few rounds on it. Not a problem on grass I know.

 

However, that is one reason I like to travel and play different courses. I get bored playing the same tracks all the time. I could never pay lots of money to join a nice country club because I would feel like I couldn't afford to play elsewhere. I would rather use that money to travel and play.

[RoverRick]

However, that is one reason I like to travel and play different courses. I get bored playing the same tracks all the time. I could never pay lots of money to join a nice country club because I would feel like I couldn't afford to play elsewhere. I would rather use that money to travel and play.

 

I am a member of what is now a very nice course. I have been here for 15 years and it was not always so nice, but has recently been turned into one. I putt very aggressively here and putt well. The greens are mowed 6 days a week and rolled 3 days. The grass is Tiff Eagle and has very little grain that effects the putt. I am also an aggressive chipper and pitcher because I understand these greens. However, when I travel, I suck.

 

Because most greens in the south are grainy, and much faster down grain than up grain, and I am not used to this, I am timid in my approach to these shots and my scores are horrible.

 

For the past several years I worked out of my house, and could be on the first tee in 4 minutes. I practiced everyday on the same course at 2 pm. I had a hard time justifying playing a bunch of other courses because I not only had to pay extra, I had to travel there.

 

Fortunately, I now travel a lot and this spring will start playing at least one away course a week. This should help me to become more aggressive and at ease when traveling. I say this spring, but that could be as early as February since I primarily travel in Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana.