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LM sessions


revkev

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Mr Divot's comments in another thread gave me the idea to start a new one. Many of us are fortunate enough to test equipment for MGS, thanks guys, others test for our own sake.

 

Regardless it seems to me that there is a risk of getting skewed numbers with longer clubs in an LM a session. If you start whacking shot after shot you will tire and the numbers won't necessarily be valid.

 

I'd suggest that when testing on an indoor LM that you treat every shot like you are on the course. Go through your entire routine evry shot. Also take your time between swings, I always have a wate or a cup of coffee and I pause for sips. Additionally it can be very helpful to mix in some shorter shots on occasion just like you would in a normal round.

 

As Mr Divot's wrote elsewhere you hit 14 drivers a round, perhaps another 10 shots with longer clubs for 28 in a round of 4 hours. 50 drivers in succession over an hour is not likely to yield the best results.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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When doing these session I usually take 1-2 minutes between shots once I am trying to get things dialed in. This way I have time to rest and reset. I do hit drives for charity tournaments so I usually do t get tired hitting 80-100 drives because I am used to hitting 150+ in a day.

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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KCLeo just understand that most of us are not you. Regardless if someone like you is providing the rest between swings advice how much more should we rest between them?

 

If I rest I have little trouble making a quality driver swing on ball number 50 plus.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I think that 3 minutes it a reasonable amount of time to allow the body to recover. Also the biggest issue with these sessions most people swing much harder the they do on the course to see how far they can hit it. If I am doing an indoor session I prefer to use a hole on the screen rather then a driving range that way you are more concerned with hitting the fairway rather then swinging out of your shoes.

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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As mentioned before, LM data is only relevant to that particular person at that particular moment in time.

However, it is also worth noting that without the feedback and attendance of a trained fitter, you may as well be hitting into a net with any old club.

It is also worth noting that contrary to popular belief, trained fitters work for a living and are not in the habit of allowing all and sundry to hit 100+ balls and "take their time" unless the facilities have been booked in advance and a fee has been agreed.

I can't stress enough the importance of a proper fitting, but I also can't stress enough that not everybody has access to a level fitting normally reserved for touring pros - and that means every joe schmo should treat the experience with a modicum of reality too.

If you really want to take over an hour to try out every shaft on offer and still walk out with a delusional idea of what fits your perceived game, then you may well have more money than sense.

On the other hand, you may also want to listen to a trained professional and follow their advice. This is probably not within the confines of a big box store who probably get bored pretty quickly with the kind of tyre-kicking individual as described above. No disrespect, but if someone I was trying to help (remember time is money?) started to drink coffee in between swings, then I would think they were wasting my time.

Which invariably, a lot of guys do. So go and warm up on the range first, then see the fitter second - and preferably with an open mind too.

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Well it depends on where you are. I usually rent a TrackMan for 2 hours or go to a place where you can use a foresight GC2 for as long as you want because it's pay by the hour. I have done several tour van fitting and understand how to translate the numbers and adjust the club the change those numbers.

 

I know not everyone has these options or has the knowledge to do what I do. I do agree that everyone should have the access to these types of fittings.

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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2 hours goes by quickly and the guy I rent it from I have got to know well and we usually just chat the whole time so it's not like we are wasting time. Plus he is getting paid for his time so aim sure he doesn't care. I pay the same amount whether I hit 10 balls a minute or a ball every 10 minutes. So I am not sure where your sarcastic comments are coming from.

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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Usually a 2 hour session I have 2-3 drivers with 2-3 shaft per driver that I want to test. Usually it takes 90 minutes to find the best feeling performing brad/shaft combo then I try to dial that driver in to max out performance. Also everytime I get a new set of irons we spend time gap fitting them all.

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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Usually once for irons and twice for driver/woods/hybrids

 Ping G410 LST 10.5 set -1* Flat Accra TZ5 65 M5

Callaway Epic Flash 15* set -1 Aldila ATX Blue 75TX

Ben Hogan FT Worth Hi 19* KBS Tour V X

Ben Hogan PTX Pro 4-P KBS Tour V X 2* Flat 4* loft increments

Hogan Equalizer 50* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 X 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 56* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

Hogan Equalizer 62* KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 2* Flat

EVNROLL ER7 P2 Aware Tour
Scotty Cameron Newport2 Buttonback P2 Aware Tour Grip
Snell MTB-X

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@J I think you are misinterpreting the purpose of this thread. Like several other people here I've been asked to test a driver shaft for Paderson golf. I've also been fortunate enough to test othe equipment via MGS a. My comments were meant for those who rent time on trackman or flightscope for such tests. I'm certainly not walking into a big box store and sipping on coffee between swings. In fact I'm not likely walking into a big box store to do anything but say hi to a friend of mine who works at one or to cull through the used rack to see if there is anything of interest there.

 

My hope here is to keep those involved in a test of equipment fresh while testing, not to walk into your store and waste your time. If I'm renting the LM by the hour I'll spend the hour as I please thank you very much. I may not have your level of expertise but I'm certainly capable of checking iron gaps, of comparing two clubs to see how each is performing verses the other and of checking two shafts with the same head and comparing the results. Further since I'm generally speaking a reasonable enough guy im very capable of asking one of the pros at the place what the numbers mean and getting a straight forward answer.

 

Interestingly enough though I've been to two big time fittings that lasted over three hours each. In both cases the fitter provided the option of beverage including beer if I had wanted it. In both cases I opted for coffee because it was a morning fitting. Both were courteous, not condescending, despite the fact that both regularly fit touring pros. Both expected that I would take my time and provide feedback. The one was at the Tour performance center at TPCS Sawgrass and the other was with a guy who has twice been Taylor Made's fitter of the year.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Hey, as long as you're paying the guy, take as long as you want and sip as many cups of coffee as you want.   If you're in a big box store hitting on a free GC2, you're not wasting a qualified fitter's time, your wasting a 22 year old non-PGA salesmen's time and he'll leave the minute he spots a more likely sale.

 

If the objective is to reproduce as natural and normal a driver swing as you can (as Rev suggested in the op) then you shouldn't even be testing indoors on an astroturf matt with a rubber nipple into a netted blank void anyway.   There is nothing normal about that exercise.   You should be outside, on grass with a Trackman, watching to see where the ball really goes so you can strive to hit a better shot the next time.

 

As for what makes for a good session, I have to confess that this last Paderson session -- which was solely a head-to-head comparison of shaft performance in a known control head -- it was a lot easier than a fitting for a new club.  I wasn't chasing a brass ring this time and there were far fewer variables in play.  That made it much easier to change or eliminate one variable and see the result of the change.  I had four shafts and two heads, but I was still able to make a first and second cut very quickly and get down to just one head and two shafts which could then duke it out.   I don't think I hit more than the equivalent of a big bucket and I warmed up with 20 of them.   Then threw out all the oddball shots, because they didn't matter for this test.  I only needed to see BS, launch, dispersion, spin and carry numbers for the good ones.  Oh sure, if one club had produced a cluster of bad shots like my recent experiment with the 915d3 did, then I'm have to reconsider.  But with one dud out of about 10 it's okay to toss away the duds and compare good against good in a test like we were doing.

 

On a final note, I discovered why my club head speed dropped a couple of mph this time over the last.    I pulled out the old chart from last time and I saw that I had the smash factor set to a more reasonable 1.42 last time.   This time it was set to an overly efficient 1.45 and since it's an old GC2 without the new gizmo, clubhead speed is just calculation, not a measurement.  On a measured ball speed of 150 mph, the chs will be 103.44 mph when set to smash of 1.45, and it will be 105.63 mph when set to 1.42.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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Hey, as long as you're paying the guy, take as long as you want and sip as many cups of coffee as you want.   If you're in a big box store hitting on a free GC2, you're not wasting a qualified fitter's time, your wasting a 22 year old non-PGA salesmen's time and he'll leave the minute he spots a more likely sale.

 

If the objective is to reproduce as natural and normal a driver swing as you can (as Rev suggested in the op) then you shouldn't even be testing indoors on an astroturf matt with a rubber nipple into a netted blank void anyway.   There is nothing normal about that exercise.   You should be outside, on grass with a Trackman, watching to see where the ball really goes so you can strive to hit a better shot the next time.

 

As for what makes for a good session, I have to confess that this last Paderson session -- which was solely a head-to-head comparison of shaft performance in a known control head -- it was a lot easier than a fitting for a new club.  I wasn't chasing a brass ring this time and there were far fewer variables in play.  That made it much easier to change or eliminate one variable and see the result of the change.  I had four shafts and two heads, but I was still able to make a first and second cut very quickly and get down to just one head and two shafts which could then duke it out.   I don't think I hit more than the equivalent of a big bucket and I warmed up with 20 of them.   Then threw out all the oddball shots, because they didn't matter for this test.  I only needed to see BS, launch, dispersion, spin and carry numbers for the good ones.  Oh sure, if one club had produced a cluster of bad shots like my recent experiment with the 915d3 did, then I'm have to reconsider.  But with one dud out of about 10 it's okay to toss away the duds and compare good against good in a test like we were doing.

 

I definitely agree, testing for a head to head comparison is a lot easier than attempting to find the "perfect match."  

 

After warming up, there's only a single variable (shaft) we're using for a comparison.

 

Since I'm fortunate enough to have ready access to a LM, I prefer to limite the number of swings per session and test over a period of days, particularly with a driver.

 

Despite the Blizzard Warning that goes into effect tonight, Spring will be here soon so actual course testing will mean as much (or more) before reaching any definite conclusions on performance.  The LM numbers are really just one aspect to consider.

What's In the Bag

Driver - :callaway-small: GBB 

Hybrids  :cleveland-small: Halo XL Halo 18* & :cobra-small: T-Rail 20*

Irons  :cobra-small: T-Rail 2.0

Wedges :ping-small: 60* TS / SCOR 48* 53* 58*

Putter     :scotty-small:

Ball :callaway-logo-1:

Bag Datrek DG Lite  

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I sometimes have some common sense. ;)

 

LM sessions for many years I call the "Carnival strongman game."

17_HIGHSTRIKERSINGLE.jpg

Nice smash factor there, guy! B)

"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

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@revkev.

Apologies if you thought my posts were misrepresenting the original premise of your thread. Having read the first again, I think you may be right.

Be that as it may though, I feel the use of LM data in the quest for seeking an optimal fit is somewhat over-emphasized at times - and therefore it should be treated accordingly.

No surprises that LD guys with 120+mph swing speeds are looking for something noticeably different than a 20 handicapper - but when that same 20 handicapper is connected with the right set up for the first time, I'd suggest the results are more remarkable and somewhat more poignant. 

Sure, some shaft companies may want feedback on their product, but this is usually on feel - they're not really interested in LM data because all it does is uphold the truth that everybody swings it differently. 

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NP Jaskanski - I can't imagine what the lot of a fitter must be like - everyone coming in thinks he's a tick below Tiger or Rory or whoever and needs the same equipment set up.

 

Actually my Tour Performance fitter said that he'd way rather set up a middle handicapper and help him shave a few strokes per round.  With a tour player it was a few strokes a season and with an LPGA player sometimes there's the issue of the over protective Dad involved.  His words exactly. 

 

I'm at that point where I pretty much know what I need for equipment right now - I prefer graphite in my irons - something in the mid-60's, lofts jacked a bit to help capture distance lost to age, a little help (GI not super GI).  Driver needs to be around 70 gms/ R flex and with the SLDR I need the extra loft - I'd go get fit again if I were moving away from the SLDR but with my current set up I get plenty of launch without excess spin which is nice - I'm getting the ball out to where I was hitting it 10 years ago or so - that's cool.

 

But if a fitter showed me something that helped my game and it held for a couple of sessions I'd jump on it - I'm not proud - I like lower scores and don't really care how they come so long as its by the rules. :)

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I'm at that point where I pretty much know what I need for equipment right now - I prefer graphite in my irons - something in the mid-60's, lofts jacked a bit to help capture distance lost to age, a little help (GI not super GI).  Driver needs to be around 70 gms/ R flex and with the SLDR I need the extra loft - I'd go get fit again if I were moving away from the SLDR but with my current set up I get plenty of launch without excess spin which is nice - I'm getting the ball out to where I was hitting it 10 years ago or so - that's cool.

 

But if a fitter showed me something that helped my game and it held for a couple of sessions I'd jump on it - I'm not proud - I like lower scores and don't really care how they come so long as its by the rules. :)

I'm with you there, Rev!

 

While waiting for the Paderson shaft to arrive (hopefully Friday morning, weather permitting) I've been comparing my irons with the LM and it looks like the more forgiving MP-30s are going in the bag.  Given the fact I've already put the original graphite shafts back in my SCORs, my next step is likely graphite in my irons this year.

 

I've had graphite iron shafts before, but the technology's come a long way in the past few years and I think it will be a better fit for me now.

What's In the Bag

Driver - :callaway-small: GBB 

Hybrids  :cleveland-small: Halo XL Halo 18* & :cobra-small: T-Rail 20*

Irons  :cobra-small: T-Rail 2.0

Wedges :ping-small: 60* TS / SCOR 48* 53* 58*

Putter     :scotty-small:

Ball :callaway-logo-1:

Bag Datrek DG Lite  

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I'm with you there, Rev!

 

While waiting for the Paderson shaft to arrive (hopefully Friday morning, weather permitting) I've been comparing my irons with the LM and it looks like the more forgiving MP-30s are going in the bag.  Given the fact I've already put the original graphite shafts back in my SCORs, my next step is likely graphite in my irons this year.

 

I've had graphite iron shafts before, but the technology's come a long way in the past few years and I think it will be a better fit for me now.

 

I went to graphite in my irons a few years ago with the Ping i20's.  I tried graphite many years ago, but wasn't happy with the consistency (or lack thereof).  I am very happy with graphite now, particularly in the SCORs.  When I ordered them, I wasn't sure if I should get steel shafts because all my older wedges had steel, or get graphite.  And then to make it more confusing, SCOR had the Genius 7 and 9 graphite shafts.  I was very fortunate to be able to try steel and both the light and heavy weight graphite shafts at a local golf course that had a SCOR demo kit.  It was very clear to me that the Genius 9 shaft was the fit for me.  I could have played the steel, but the Genius 7 shaft was way too light.  Still hoping to match the Hogans to the feel of the SCORs.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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It was the SCOR Genius shafts that actually convinced me I should try graphite shafts in my irons.

 

If graphite doesn't feel "wobbly" on a wedge, then I think they'll work fine with irons - lol

 

I purchased graphite shafts with a set of Cleveland Hibore 3 irons with graphite shafts when they were released because "that's what an "old high handicap golfer" was supposed to be playing...

 

I was "fit" for them, but a LOT of assumptions were in play...

 

I didn't really understand then why, no matter how hard I would swing, my distance never really seemed to get much longer but I would be more likely to get high, wild hooks.  I never did feel comfortable hitting them out of the rough.

 

It wasn't until we got a "real" fitter in the area that I discovered that not only were the shafts a terrible fit for my swing, but the "ultra game improvement" design wasn't a good fit for me, either.

 

Fortunately, I now have a better understanding of what works for me.

What's In the Bag

Driver - :callaway-small: GBB 

Hybrids  :cleveland-small: Halo XL Halo 18* & :cobra-small: T-Rail 20*

Irons  :cobra-small: T-Rail 2.0

Wedges :ping-small: 60* TS / SCOR 48* 53* 58*

Putter     :scotty-small:

Ball :callaway-logo-1:

Bag Datrek DG Lite  

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  • 1 month later...

Did the LM thing today primarily to check on the gaps in the middle of my bag. Worked 5 iron and 4 hybrid hard. Ended up with a 14 yard gap between them which is okay, would have prefered 12 but glad it wasn't close to 20 like it used to be between my longest iron and shortest hybrid.

 

I tweeked that 6 iron 2 degrees stronger which brought it down to 13 yards.

 

I won't need to touch anything so long as this holds. I'm pretty pleased with how I'm hitting the 5 iron. I haven't bagged one for 8 years until last fall. I was also happy about my spin rates. They followed the general rule of 6k for 6 iron 5 k for 5 and so on. I had a very consistent draw all day as well. The first 40 balls I just let it go and had a huge grouping between 10 and 15 yards left of target. After that I was able to move it over to the middle by aiming farther right. Reminded me of another thread. Indoors into a net can be very disorientating.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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