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Handicapping – Do you believe it?


PlaidJacket

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We had this problem at my club. I was paired with a "16hc" and watched him reach 2 Par 5s in two shots, then 3-jack to keep his hc up.

 

Here's one way these guys get away with it: they enter their correct score, BUT FROM A SHORTER SET OF TEES. Ghin awards them a higher hc if they shoot 80 from 5,500 yds vs. 6,400 yds. You must look at which tees he said he used in the Ghin system, or you'll miss it.

 

This seems to be a common ploy.  Kor,A.Door posted the same thing earlier in this thread.  If the player is at the club and someone reports it, the HCP Committee at the club can, with proof, change the player's score post and assess a penalty.  IF this happens, it doesn't take long for people to get the message.  The problem is that a player can post a score from another course and the club has no way to know that the posting is incorrect.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Here's a problem with our GHIN at the club I belong too. (I think)  I enter my own scores after a round at home. I don't turn in a score card at the club. Now, I don't know for sure but can everyone input their own scores into GHIN? I thought it was up to each club to decide that. I am able to enter my own scores and I do so. The reason I do is because a couple of years ago I discovered that the club was not entering all my scores. All I think they'd do anyway is enter an ESC number and not the hole by hole scores. I enter in my honest score into GHIN. Others? I don't know. But it's sure ripe for cheating.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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As far as I know, everyone enters their own scores into GHIN.  I do.  Maybe there are some clubs that still do it the old way, but I doubt there are very many.  When I started playing, I turned my scorecards into the pro and he or someone entered the scores and kept track of my HCP.  With the digital age comes convenience ripe with fraud.  

 

When I travel and play at a different course, I usually try to enter my score after the round on their computer system.  However, it is easy to just play several courses in a week, and enter the scores on my computer when I get home.  

 

Here's another problem with playing in some of these tournaments:  Suppose a guy that can play to a 5 HCP wants to play in an upcoming tournament but he hasn't had a GHIN HCP for years, or maybe never.  Since he needs a GHIN to play, he joins; posts bogus scores; and gets a HCP of 15.  This actually happens in one of our biggest pro-am tournaments of the year.  The sad part is that I have seen this person NOT win his flight!!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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  • 2 weeks later...

We had this problem at my club. I was paired with a "16hc" and watched him reach 2 Par 5s in two shots, then 3-jack to keep his hc up.

 

Here's one way these guys get away with it: they enter their correct score, BUT FROM A SHORTER SET OF TEES. Ghin awards them a higher hc if they shoot 80 from 5,500 yds vs. 6,400 yds. You must look at which tees he said he used in the Ghin system, or you'll miss it.

This is the big issue with the system, it's not that the score isn't entered, or a wrong score is entered, its that the score is entered using the incorrect tee, if the rating is 72/139, and you shoot 80 your Hcp is around 6.5. But if the rating is 60/ 130 and you shoot 80, your Hcp is around 8.5 Same score same course, incorrect tee, 2 Hcp points

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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  • 2 months later...

I've recently moved up to the white tees. I post my scores in GHIN after each round. I'm assuming that over time my scores from the Blue tee will drop off the radar and the newer scores will supplant them. In the mean time how does this effect my handicap since they will be a mix of course slope & rating? Any thoughts?

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Plaid, the USGA system "normalizes" your scores based on the slope and course rating, resulting in what they term the "differential".  The differential is (Score-Rating)*113/Slope.   Once the differentials of your last 20 are determined, the system averages the lowest 10, and multiplies by 0.96.  When you play the shorter tees, the course will have both a lower Rating and Slope, so the same score from the shorter tees will result in a higher differential.  As an example, from my own recent history:

79 on a course with Rating of 67.3, Slope of 117, Differential is 11.3

79 on 71.2/131, differential is 5.1

What this means is that if you keep shooting the same scores from the shorter tees, your handicap will go up.  More likely, your scores will go down, and your handicap index won't change very much.  When you go to the course, your course handicap is calculated as your Index times Slope/113.  You'll commonly get a stroke or two less from shorter tees, as the slope is almost always lower.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Thanks Dave.

I believe so far I've recorded about 7-8 scores from the Wht., or regular men's tee. I actually expect to start scoring lower this next year. I've been adjusting some to the shorter distances so before long I should see lower scores. I'd been battling the back tees for too long. I'm glad I've finally made the move up. It was long over due.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Hey Plaid, I was just reading another post you'd made recently.  You mentioned that you're playing against some guys who are still playing the back tees, even though you've moved up.  The USGA has a procedure for handicapping players who are using different tees.  First, you each determine your course handicap from the tees you're playing.  At my home club, I normally play the blues, and right now I'm a 6 handicap.  I'd get one stroke more (7) if I played the back (Gold) tees, all based on the different slope ratings (132 Blue, 142 Gold).  THEN you adjust your handicap, by the difference in the course rating of the tees, in this case its 71.0 from the Blue, and 73.8 from the Gold.  The result, if I were to play another blue-tee 6-handicap, and I play from the gold, he'd give me a total of 4 strokes (slope-adjusted 7 for me from the gold, plus the difference in course ratings (73.8-71.0)).  Now if your buddies don't know about this, and you can play them using the same strokes as always, good for you!  Just be kind enough to buy them a beer with your winnings, after all its their money you'll be using.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Thanks again Dave.

To be honest we usually play heads up. Doesn't matter which tee you're playing from. I know who I'm dealing with. Some of the guys might complain... but they are the same guys that should be playing up as well. I swear it's not worth my time attempting to get them to move up. They all think they are better players than they are. But they just aren't. I'm not giving them strokes nor do I ask for any either. I'm breaking 80 more consistently now; as I should, and it will improve this next season. Most guys I play with hit the ball farther than I do with any chosen club. But now with me moving up we are equal. Some don't like it either. Tough.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

We had this problem at my club. I was paired with a "16hc" and watched him reach 2 Par 5s in two shots, then 3-jack to keep his hc up.

 

Here's one way these guys get away with it: they enter their correct score, BUT FROM A SHORTER SET OF TEES. Ghin awards them a higher hc if they shoot 80 from 5,500 yds vs. 6,400 yds. You must look at which tees he said he used in the Ghin system, or you'll miss it.

Not true--GHIN will give the guy an index based on the tees that he plays from.  The index will be used to determine the HC for the tees used for the tournament.  It should work out correctly if the course ratings are properly set up.

Nonchalant putts count the same as chalant putts.

In my Ogio Ozone XX Cart Stand Bag:

Ping G400 10.5 Deg Driver, stock Stiff shaft
TM Rocketballz 19 Deg 5 Wood, stock Matrix Osik Stiff shaft
TM Rocketballz Stage 2 21 Deg Tour 4 Hybrid, Rocketfuel 80h Stiff shaft 

Callaway Apex CF 16 Irons, 4-P, Stiff Shafts
 
Scor 48 and 55 degree wedges.  
Renegar 60 Deg Steel Shaft Lob Wedge

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Not true--GHIN will give the guy an index based on the tees that he plays from.  The index will be used to determine the HC for the tees used for the tournament.  It should work out correctly if the course ratings are properly set up.

I think what he's saying is that these guys intentionally select the wrong tees when they enter their scores, i.e. they play the blues, enter the correct score, but select the whites.  No doubt this will result in an unfairly inflated index.  This is where a handicap committee and good peer review can help get things right.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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  • 1 month later...

In my settings above I adjusted my handicap to reflect today's GHIN update. I've been creeping up the past few months. I try to do this after each revision which is twice monthly. 1st and 15th.

I'm at 7.4. Glad the season is early. Last year my goal was to reach a 5 hcp or better. Didn't make it.

I hope all you guys adjust your handicap up in the settings area when you receive revisions.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just adjusted mine it hadn't moved much but did it just the same. Our pros do a very good job of score monitoring. Between the two club pros and the teaching pro they know every members game pretty well.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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  • 1 month later...

We had an old pro, 50 years at our club and things got lackadaisical with handi caps being entered.  New pro now and if you want to win a daily "thing" you have to hand in your card. They now enter all holes and scores and tees  into the system.  This helps with handicapping the holes. Our #1 hole has changed a few times.

 I thought the T scores helped to define the better golfers who had better rounds when playing in tournaments, that is why a T score can stay on the card longer . 

  I believe there is another letter used when the golf committee adjusts your score down during a tournament , you know basically caught playing way better than your handicap. I'll have to look that one up.

  M for modify

In My Bag

 

Driver TM 9.5 Burner reg shaft.

3 wood TM 15*             "

5 wood TM 18*             "     "

Cobra baffler 3 hybrid

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 Scotty Cameron Newport 2.6 center shafted putter

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I thought that T stands for a tournament score regardless of what it is - the handicap committee at the club determines what constitutes a tournament.

 

No?

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I thought that T stands for a tournament score regardless of what it is - the handicap committee at the club determines what constitutes a tournament.

 

No?

That's the way I understand it.

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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The club's tournament committee, in consultation with the Handicap Committee, should determine in advance which event scores should be entered as Tournament Scores.  The criteria for defining what should be T scores changed this year, to try to decrease the number of T rounds posted.  T scores remain in your record for a year.  At each revision, the two lowest T scores from the last year are compared to your current Index, in a two-step evaluation process.  If the difference is too large, your index can be decreased, and is marked with R for Reduced.  Your Handicap Committee can also modify your Index for a number of reasons, and in that case its marked M, for Modified.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Just looked up results from a "local" Pro-Am.  The Net winner shot an amazing Net 64-66 over 2 days, to win by 4 shots.....  According to Dean Knuth,

Knuth: The odds of someone beating their handicap -- if it's an honest handicap -- by eight strokes are 1,138 to 1. For most players that represents about 54 years of golf -- a lifetime for many. The odds of beating your number by eight strokes twice are 14,912 to 1, or 710 years of golf.

 

So, this is supposed to be a once in a Lifetime accomplishment.  I can accept that... until I check dudes recent GHIN card.  His lowest 4 Differentials are from Tournaments in the past Month. All other scores are MUCH higher....

 

I hate the Handicap system, and how abused it is.

Driver - Ping G430 Max 9° | Ventus Blue TR 
Hybrid - :srixon-small: ZX 16° & 18° | GD Tour IZ S

2 Iron - :srixon-small: ZU65 17° | AeroTech SteelFiber 110icw S

Irons -  :srixon-small: ZX7 MKII  4-Pw | TTDGTI S400, std length  1° flat
Wedges - :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Tour Rack 50° 54° 58° | TTDGTI S400, std length 1° flat

Putter -  L.A.B. Golf Link.1 | LA Golf P135 shaft | Garsen Quad Tour grip
 

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Just looked up results from a "local" Pro-Am.  The Net winner shot an amazing Net 64-66 over 2 days, to win by 4 shots.....  According to Dean Knuth,

Knuth: The odds of someone beating their handicap -- if it's an honest handicap -- by eight strokes are 1,138 to 1. For most players that represents about 54 years of golf -- a lifetime for many. The odds of beating your number by eight strokes twice are 14,912 to 1, or 710 years of golf.

 

So, this is supposed to be a once in a Lifetime accomplishment.  I can accept that... until I check dudes recent GHIN card.  His lowest 4 Differentials are from Tournaments in the past Month. All other scores are MUCH higher....

 

I hate the Handicap system, and how abused it is.

Did you note the course rating?  If the CR is 69 or 70, those kind of scores become much more reasonable, since that's the "par" that Dean Knuth is talking about.  Based on the tournament score stuff, it sure looks suspicious.  The other thing I'd wonder about is that all 4 of his lower scores are in the past month, is possible he's just practicing a lot, in preparation for the tournaments, and the handicap system isn't keeping up with his improved play.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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I honestly don't know how I feel about handicaps. I guess I'm not a fan of them. This past weekend we had a tournament. Two man teams better ball match play. Played 5 nine hole matches. My partner and I were in the first flight with 5 other teams. The winning team had the highest combined handicap in the flight. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

This upcoming Saturday myself and a buddy are playing in a two man scramble. Our combined handicap puts us in the championship flight with him at 0.9 and me at 9.7. The combined handicaps are only used to determine the flights. Once you step out on the course it's straight up. I'm a much bigger fan of that.

 

I hate being given strokes just as much as I hate giving up strokes. I would rather lose to better players straight up every day than beat them with strokes. It motivates me to improve and get better. In my mind the idea of them having to give me strokes is disrespectful to the time and effort they've put in to get to that point. It's like getting a trophy for participating. I hate that.

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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Each time I read a new comment here I think to myself... "why do I keep a handicap?". I don't play tournaments anymore. Except our club Championship*. I think handicaps depend on two things. The person turning in/recording a score and a club/course having a handicap policy with some teeth and integrity to it. It's sad really but many golfers don't have any personal integrity. I'll just say it.... they're cheaters. I just have never understood sandbaggers - cheaters. They cheat in golf so they can brag and win a cheesy gift certificate from the pro shop. *A known cheater... woops, I mean sandbagger won my flight last summer in the club championship. I didn't know the guy from Adam but it turns out I was the last to know. The common talk around the club is that, "oh yeah... everyone knows he's a sandbagger (cheater)". And to make matters worse is that our Pro Staff also knows this!! Pretty sad. I suppose as long as I plan to play the club championship I'll need to keep my hcp. For this year anyway.

 

This summer I'm only going to compete in our Senior Division in the club championship. This eliminates the cheater I mentioned above. He's not old enough to cheat the seniors. Yet. LOL

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Did you note the course rating?  If the CR is 69 or 70, those kind of scores become much more reasonable, since that's the "par" that Dean Knuth is talking about.  Based on the tournament score stuff, it sure looks suspicious.  The other thing I'd wonder about is that all 4 of his lower scores are in the past month, is possible he's just practicing a lot, in preparation for the tournaments, and the handicap system isn't keeping up with his improved play.

  • Black 72.2/125

This is not the easiest course on the planet...  His other 2 low tournament rounds were on a course with a 71.8/128 rating/slope.  Home course is 68.2/111, where he shoots higher scores...

Driver - Ping G430 Max 9° | Ventus Blue TR 
Hybrid - :srixon-small: ZX 16° & 18° | GD Tour IZ S

2 Iron - :srixon-small: ZU65 17° | AeroTech SteelFiber 110icw S

Irons -  :srixon-small: ZX7 MKII  4-Pw | TTDGTI S400, std length  1° flat
Wedges - :cleveland-small: RTX 6 Tour Rack 50° 54° 58° | TTDGTI S400, std length 1° flat

Putter -  L.A.B. Golf Link.1 | LA Golf P135 shaft | Garsen Quad Tour grip
 

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I play in the world am every year in myrtle beach. They use your handicap, but if you score to well you will end up being reduced or DQ'd. I think your tournament committee should consider the same with this guy.

 

 

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Funny how a game of integrity has so many cheaters in it, it's pretty say to spot the cheaters too, that's what I can't figure out, it would be easy to reduce there score, or DQ them, I played in the inter club this last weekend, and my playing partner had to play against a supposed 9 hcp, and was giving a stroke, this guy hit the ball a long way, and was very accurate with everything, and never missed a putt inside 10 feet, he shot 40/37, he missed one shot the entire day, only because he did t know the course and hit it too far right on hole 7, which he tripled, so reall he shot much better than 77. I think his hcp is sand bagged, not a lot, but enough to make a difference in the match, I told my partner, I've never seen 9 hcp'er never miss a shot. But since this is a tourney score it will stay on there longer so next time his cap should drop, if you aren't familiar with inter club they use the lowest recorded index over he last 12 months, that helps eliminate some sand bagging, but not all of it.

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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