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Course Management Lesson (Gomez wins Sony)


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We have a par 5, hole #3, that is slightly down hill from 250 and in, with a large green with the front half of the green flowing toward you and and from the middle back it runs away, with an Almost guarantee for no better than par. If the flag is on the front portion, you can go for it, with your miss needing to be short middle, to short left, if the flag is in the back, your best bet is to lay up to 100-110, so you can put some spin in the ball to stop it. So course management can mean knowing when to go and knowing when to lay up even though you are hitting your second shot from the same place you did yesterday and put it close and made birdie. Medicine, some times you have to take it, or take a double, sometimes par can win.

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What's interesting about this "course management" tip is that he still went for the green in two and succeeded. He didn't lay up at all and that was never his plan. He had no interest in laying up. The fairways were rock hard and running, impossible to keep most anything in the fairway.

What I take from it is that on Par 5's you should hit the most accurate club off the tee that still gives you an opportunity to go for it in two.

 

I think what we should take away from this is not that he went for it in two, BUT he did not make the decision he was going for it until after he was in the fairway. On the tee box, well, actually in the cart heading to the tee box, he made the decision to go for the fairway. Once he was in the fairway he made the decision to go for it, because there was no real trouble in the area of the flag. A missed green would have still left him an easy chip shot.

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I think he recognized that he could get it on from the fairway but not from the rough. He was always thinking, fairway/green.

 

My round yesterday was managed pretty well. I actually only made two mental mistakes one of which cost me a stroke. I hit three wood off the tee three times during the round. Normally I would do so five times on this course. I hit two extra drivers because of this conversation and both paid off. The mental errors were hitting three wood from the right side of the tee box. Just not smart of me. :(

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I think sometimes the difficult thing to do is to continue to play mentally smart, especially when it isn't working out the way you want it to.

Very hard. When I played in events this summer I tried to play smart. Hit hybrid off the tee and put myself in good places but in the 2nd one I couldn't hit the hybrid and quickly abandoned it to just try and over power the course. It didn't really work but I can't say sticking with my plan would have been any better.

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Played in our weekend group yesterday (I only do that maybe once or twice a month).  The A player in our group I have played with about 5 times during that period.  He alternates between a 7 and 8 course handicap, probably around a 5.5 index.  If he could putt at all, he'd probably be a 3 or 4.  

 

He's long off the tee.  So on a few of our shorter holes he hits irons or hybrids off the tee so he can have a 90 to 100 yd shot into the green.  Fine, but on 12, we're sitting on the tee, he's getting ready to tee off with his hybrid, and I'm remembering that every other time I've played with him, he's hooked his hybrid or long iron into the water on the left (I remember in part because after one of those I was standing in the wrong place and got hit in the chest by the head of the club he had tossed back in disgust).  Was tempted to remind him of that tendency, but deferred, not wanting to put negative swing thoughts in his head.  Sure enough, hybrid hooked so far left that it landed in a yard across the water!  Mind you, this fellow did not miss a fairway all day with his driver.  Earlier, he had pushed his play safe hybrid way right into the trees on another of his layup holes.  

 

Just saying.  

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The other part to the mental game is sometimes you have to change your "plan" as you get into the round, maybe the plan is to hit hybrids or 3wd off many of the tees, but you are struggling with those, but you are hitting the driver great, sometimes you have to play the game you brought with you on a particular day. If Gomez was hooking the hybrid to the rough, he would not have played it, he would have picked a club that he knew he could put in the fairway if that happened to be driver he would have hit it, being mentally strong means playing the correct shot, even though it isn't always the safe one. Or as others have posted many other times "play the shot you know you can hit, not the one you think you can hit".

 

 

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Played in our weekend group yesterday (I only do that maybe once or twice a month).  The A player in our group I have played with about 5 times during that period.  He alternates between a 7 and 8 course handicap, probably around a 5.5 index.  If he could putt at all, he'd probably be a 3 or 4.  

 

He's long off the tee.  So on a few of our shorter holes he hits irons or hybrids off the tee so he can have a 90 to 100 yd shot into the green.  Fine, but on 12, we're sitting on the tee, he's getting ready to tee off with his hybrid, and I'm remembering that every other time I've played with him, he's hooked his hybrid or long iron into the water on the left (I remember in part because after one of those I was standing in the wrong place and got hit in the chest by the head of the club he had tossed back in disgust).  Was tempted to remind him of that tendency, but deferred, not wanting to put negative swing thoughts in his head.  Sure enough, hybrid hooked so far left that it landed in a yard across the water!  Mind you, this fellow did not miss a fairway all day with his driver.  Earlier, he had pushed his play safe hybrid way right into the trees on another of his layup holes.  

 

Just saying.  

I am not sure what goes through our minds when we do this.  I did the exact same thing today.  There is a short par 4 (even for me!) which the long guys can drive; but its carry over sand and water.  I can't get there, but with driver I can hit straight up the fairway almost even with the front of the green which is about 25 yards to the right of the fairway.  Left of the fairway is no good as it falls off to a low grassy area and you can't see the green.

 

I had hit my driver fairly straight all day, but for some reason I pulled my 7W out to layup to 75 yards.  I've done this before with tucked pins with success because I can hit a nice 54 SCOR.  But I hadn't hit the 7W all day, and this shot wasn't pretty.  I ended up just left of the fairway on the slope 110 out with carry over lots of sand to a tight pin.  Put it in the bunker; made bogey.  If I had hit driver, I would likely have been in the fairway or in the same bunker that I ended up in anyway.   

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Well, on Sunday I had the opposite. I had planned on hitting 3 iron on 3, 7, 12 & 16. The reason is water on 12 & 16 and no advantage on 3 & 7.

 

I then hit the driver poorly the first three times I tried it so on 6 I hit 3 iron. Made a par. Hit it on 7 made birdie.

 

I pulled it out on 8 and one of the guys said "Are you going to keep hitting that (expletive deleted) 3 iron right down the middle all day." I said "I am now."

So I hit the 3 iron right down the middle all day. Averaged 216. And shot 1 over par. With it. (This does not include the 6 over par I had before adopting this strategy.)

I had the best iron striking day in a while. And if I had some putts fall in I could have really done well.

Yes, I was 40-50 yards behind some of my competitions. And on at least 2 holes I could not reach in regulation. But I was in good shape to get up and down.

This doesn't mean I am not going to work on my driver or leave it at home.

This is more along the lines of having to change strategy and play to strengths.

 

But I do plan on taking the Fli Hi 2 iron back and giving it a shot as soon as I reshaft it.

 

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Well, on Sunday I had the opposite. I had planned on hitting 3 iron on 3, 7, 12 & 16. The reason is water on 12 & 16 and no advantage on 3 & 7.

 

I then hit the driver poorly the first three times I tried it so on 6 I hit 3 iron. Made a par. Hit it on 7 made birdie.

 

I pulled it out on 8 and one of the guys said "Are you going to keep hitting that (expletive deleted) 3 iron right down the middle all day." I said "I am now."

So I hit the 3 iron right down the middle all day. Averaged 216. And shot 1 over par. With it. (This does not include the 6 over par I had before adopting this strategy.)

I had the best iron striking day in a while. And if I had some putts fall in I could have really done well.

Yes, I was 40-50 yards behind some of my competitions. And on at least 2 holes I could not reach in regulation. But I was in good shape to get up and down.

This doesn't mean I am not going to work on my driver or leave it at home.

This is more along the lines of having to change strategy and play to strengths.

 

But I do plan on taking the Fli Hi 2 iron back and giving it a shot as soon as I reshaft it.

 

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That's right, use the game that you have that day.

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Played in our weekend group yesterday (I only do that maybe once or twice a month).  The A player in our group I have played with about 5 times during that period.  He alternates between a 7 and 8 course handicap, probably around a 5.5 index.  If he could putt at all, he'd probably be a 3 or 4.  

 

He's long off the tee.  So on a few of our shorter holes he hits irons or hybrids off the tee so he can have a 90 to 100 yd shot into the green.  Fine, but on 12, we're sitting on the tee, he's getting ready to tee off with his hybrid, and I'm remembering that every other time I've played with him, he's hooked his hybrid or long iron into the water on the left (I remember in part because after one of those I was standing in the wrong place and got hit in the chest by the head of the club he had tossed back in disgust).  Was tempted to remind him of that tendency, but deferred, not wanting to put negative swing thoughts in his head.  Sure enough, hybrid hooked so far left that it landed in a yard across the water!  Mind you, this fellow did not miss a fairway all day with his driver.  Earlier, he had pushed his play safe hybrid way right into the trees on another of his layup holes.  

 

Just saying.

 

Pros hit the ball consistently well, so if they hit it through the fairway with 3 wood hitting hybrid on the same line will be in the fairway. As you observed that's not the case with many of us. I tend to over draw my 3 wood far more frequently than driver and hence the smarter play for me is always driver unless there is a penalty orridiculously heavy rough waiting where the driver will finish.

 

Others of us have that issue with driver so that 3 wood or hybrid may almost always be the smarter play off the tee regardless of distance. 270 in the middle isn't so nice when you lie 3. Good course management includes knowing your own game and playing to your strengths. One of my strengths is hitting the driver straight.

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270 in the middle isn't so nice when you lie 3. Good course management includes knowing your own game and playing to your strengths.

Well said, sir!

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Others of us have that issue with driver so that 3 wood or hybrid may almost always be the smarter play off the tee regardless of distance. 270 in the middle isn't so nice when you lie 3. Good course management includes knowing your own game and playing to your strengths. One of my strengths is hitting the driver straight.

 

 

From now on, I think I'll play to my strengths.  Sitting in the cart drinking beer and keeping score :)

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I'm hoping this Titleist T-MB 3 iron I just got can be a go to club off the tee for me. I've never trusted hybrids because I hook them off the planet. At my club I'll be able to use it on 6-7 holes from the blue tees I normally play. From the tips it should play on 4-5 holes. Reserved 2 hours on the simulator tomorrow to test it out and hit some balls. Damn snow.

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The rain isn't much better jbil! :(

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  • 2 weeks later...

We can add "Fowler loses Waste Management" to the subtitle here.

 

On the 312 yard par 4 17th in the final round water left and long, he pulls driver, with the 2 Stroke lead, and hits it 359 into the water. WHAT?!!!

Never mind that he can hit the ball that far. Why the heck is he going for the green. A birdie there and he wins by 2 at least. And an eagle he wins by 3. A par he still wins by 1. All of these pay the same.

There were some fairway bunkers to be avoided. But why not lay up with an iron to your favorite distance and wedge it close and make a putt or two and go into the final hole with At least a 2 stroke lead.

Then we come to the final playoff hole. Same hole.

He hits 3 wood. Why? If he makes a bad swing he can still put it in the water. (Watch the coverage, it could happen.) oh. It did happen.

Once again, the smart play is to lay up with something that will get over the bunkers but not reach the water.

 

I am reminded of our 10th hole. Fairly short with the predominant wind behind. Every weekend the big hitters pound their drivers in hopes of driving the green. I lay up with an iron to the 100 marker.

 

Last weekend, I hit a poor tee shot that was in the fairway 150 out. And one of the guys hit a career drive that went through the green and off the back. I hit a great iron to 6' and made the putt. And he had a delicate chip back down the green and it ran 20' past the hole and 2 putted.

It turned out that I was the only birdie out of 12 golfers and won $27.50 off that birdie.

 

Fowlers biggest claim to fame is a shot that landed 6' from the flag where he won The Players in a playoff. But he was 2-3' from going in the water. Closer to losing that than winning it. But it worked out and he weeny from being considered the most overrated player on tour two wins to being the most overrated three wins. But he did gain confidence. And now he has more wins.

 

Poor Course Management means no Waste Management.

 

 

 

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I said he same thing when he initially pulled driver, I thought hit 5 iron and wedge, if you make the putt you're up 2, if you 2 putt you're up 1, there is NO scenario in which he should have even thought about anything other than 5 iron, or even 6, or 7 iron for that matter, I felt bad for him, and I cannot believe his caddie didn't do something on 15 he just hit the driver 344. What was he thinking. The other thing I want to know is how in the world did Hideki not get penalized for slow play? It seemed like every putt he lined up for he took 15 minutes. It was agonizing to watch.

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So we aren't considering the fact that Fowler got a terrible break on 17? The fact is that Matsuyama's drive flew farther than Rickie's but it landed on an up slope rather than the downslope that Fowler hit kicking his ball off and running another 70 yards. He could have landed in a deep unfilled divot with a 5 iron, chunked the next shot or spun it off the green and made bogey that way too.

 

I'm sure his thought process didn't include hitting it over the green on that initial tee shot and the choice of three wood in the playoff shows that he didn't realize what a bad break he had received.

 

BTW he also received a ridiculously good break on 18 in regulation and then made birdie.

 

Only he would know why he chose driver on 17 but it is what most of the field hit and many made birdie, very few made bogey. It was the rub of the green. The mistake was not hitting the driver in the playoff.

 

In the original example we were able to see that driver was the wrong choice throughout the day and Snedeker kept repeating his management mistake while his opponent learned. I think that better illustrates the point.

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So we aren't considering the fact that Fowler got a terrible break on 17? The fact is that Matsuyama's drive flew farther than Rickie's but it landed on an up slope rather than the downslope that Fowler hit kicking his ball off anfpd running another 70 yards. He could have landed in a deep unfilled divot with a 5 iron, chunked the next shot or spun it off the green and made bogey that way too.

 

I'm sure his thought process didn't include hitting it over the green on that initial tee shot and the choice of three wood in the playoff shows that he didn't realize what a bad break he had received.

 

BTW he also received a ridiculously good break on 18 in regulation and then made birdie.

 

Only he would know why he chose driver on 17 but it is what most of the field hit and many made birdie, very few made bogey. It was the rub of the green. The mistake was not hitting the driver in the playoff.

 

In the original example we were able to see that driver was the wrong choice throughout the day and Snedeker kept repeating his management mistake while his opponent learned. I think that better illustrates the point.

Spot on Rev..

Respectfully,
DHUCK WHOOKER

 

 

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The point is that with a 2 shot lead with 2 holes to go, you take any possibility of hitting into the water out of play. I dont know how there would be any divot short of the bunker since I don't think anyone laid up at any point during the week. There is no scenario that he should have pulled driver for either shot, 3wd was the correct play in extra holes, but he couldn't hook it and that's exactly what he did, anything but a hook and he likely makes birdie.

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So we aren't considering the fact that Fowler got a terrible break on 17? The fact is that Matsuyama's drive flew farther than Rickie's but it landed on an up slope rather than the downslope that Fowler hit kicking his ball off and running another 70 yards. He could have landed in a deep unfilled divot with a 5 iron, chunked the next shot or spun it off the green and made bogey that way too.

 

I'm sure his thought process didn't include hitting it over the green on that initial tee shot and the choice of three wood in the playoff shows that he didn't realize what a bad break he had received.

....

In the original example we were able to see that driver was the wrong choice throughout the day and Snedeker kept repeating his management mistake while his opponent learned. I think that better illustrates the point.

 

The point is not that he got a bad break. The point of course management is to take the big number out of play if you catch a bad break or don't make a good swing.

 

You are so right that he could have rolled into a divot, or hit into a bunker, or a whole host of other bad things that can happen but none of those things include a penalty stroke. Using any club that can reach the water in that circumstance is poor course management.

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I disagree as did the rest of the field. I agree that it would be the case for me, I disagree that every player on tour was wrong in their course management choice. The players in the field know full well that over the course of time they will average a lower score on that hole by going for the green. That's why they all do it.

 

Ricky's thought process could easily have been if I lay up I'm making par which lets my opponent back in with eagle.

 

Regardless I don't have Ricky Fowlers game and neither does anyone here. Good course management is about maximizing my game. I will make different choices than some here because I'm a better more accurate player and others because I'm shorter and not as good. It's a course and you have to fit your game into it.

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Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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My point is that that you have to take bogey off the table, driver and 3 wood are the only clubs that bring bogey into play from the tee. The water is pretty much guaranteed bogey. Most players did go for the green, but there was only one that did it with a 2 stroke lead. The others had to go for eagle, they were playing catch-up, Richie needed par, not birdie, not eagle.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I disagree as did the rest of the field. I agree that it would be the case for me, I disagree that every player on tour was wrong in their course management choice. The players in the field know full well that over the course of time they will average a lower score on that hole by going for the green. That's why they all do it.

 

Ricky's thought process could easily have been if I lay up I'm making par which lets my opponent back in with eagle.

 

Regardless I don't have Ricky Fowlers game and neither does anyone here. Good course management is about maximizing my game. I will make different choices than some here because I'm a better more accurate player and others because I'm shorter and not as good. It's a course and you have to fit your game into it.

The rest of the field was not teeing off on 17 Sunday Afternoon with a 2 stroke lead. Of course the rest of the field needed to hit driver and make something happen. Rickie needed to make par and walk up the 18th fairway waving to the crowd on his way to the trophy.

 

 

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My point is that that you have to take bogey off the table, driver and 3 wood are the only clubs that bring bogey into play from the tee. The water is pretty much guaranteed bogey. Most players did go for the green, but there was only one that did it with a 2 stroke lead. The others had to go for eagle, they were playing catch-up, Richie needed par, not birdie, not eagle.

Oops. I didn't read this before I replied to Kev.

 

Obviously I agree.

 

 

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:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

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All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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The rest of the field was not teeing off on 17 Sunday Afternoon with a 2 stroke lead. Of course the rest of the field needed to hit driver and make something happen. Rickie needed to make par and walk up the 18th fairway waving to the crowd on his way to the trophy.

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Clearly we are going to continue to disagree. Neither you nor I have a touring Pro's game nor do we caddy for one. His choice was not ridiculous, it was in keeping with what other players were doing. We weren't privy to his thought process. There is no comparison between this example and the other one cited to start this thread. In that one we had seen a wide variety of players make different choices off the tee and the ones who chose the club that stayed in the fairway did betters.

 

Ricky's management mistake was hitting three wood in the playoff. IMO

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SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

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It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Clearly we are going to continue to disagree. Neither you nor I have a touring Pro's game nor do we caddy for one. His choice was not ridiculous, it was in keeping with what other players were doing. We weren't privy to his thought process. There is no comparison between this example and the other one cited to start this thread. In that one we had seen a wide variety of players make different choices off the tee and the ones who chose the club that stayed in the fairway did betters.

 

Ricky's management mistake was hitting three wood in the playoff. IMO

 

We agree his 3 wood was a mistake, just for different reasons.

 

Yesterday, while we were in another thread, you mentioned in real time about Adam Scott hitting 2 iron/ 8 iron on a 465 yard par 4. You point at the time was the distances he was hitting it. (A valid point, when compared to us mere mortals) But Rickie is about 10 yards longer than Adam Scott. Why was Adam not hitting driver/wedge on that hole?

 

Because Adam saw on Saturday how quickly a 3 shot lead can evaporate. So on Sunday, when he was once again in the lead by a stroke, was he hitting driver off every tee and trying to increase his lead? (No doubt he wanted to increase his lead.) No, he was making smart club choices and making good shots and making the field come to him, and he ultimately held up the trophy.

:ping-small:G430LST 10.5° on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Driver 

:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

:L.A.B.:DF2.1 on :accra: White

:titelist-small: ProV1  

:918457628_PrecisionPro: Precision Pro  NX7 Pro

All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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Okay we'll stay at it - big difference between the two holes and Adam Scott's choice of throttling back was consistent with what the rest of the field was doing.  I didn't see a single driver on that hole as I watched the coverage (I didn't see the earlier coverage just NBC later because I was busy throwing up over a college basketball game.)

 

Ricky's choice of driver was also consistent with what the rest of the field was doing on 17.  Could you at least grant that he may have considered iron off the tee and that his concern was that with a full wedge into the green he might spin the ball off the false front and make bogey that way?  His belief was that in the unlikely hood that he would hit it in the water he could get up and down for par?  I don't see this one as the slam dunk that you and Kor believe it is.  If it were me I'd be hitting something that ended up short of the water - in fact I've played the hole although it's been redone since then - there used to be a bunker in the middle of the fairway that doesn't appear to be there any more - I laid up short of that and wedged on when I played the hole - I'm not going to be mistaken for anyone in that field.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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