Overlapping lofts

[NiftyNiblick]

Years ago, it was very common to see four (1,3,4,5) and nine (2-PW) complete sets where the 5-wood and 2-iron were overlapped and the sand wedge was overlooked altogether. The set arrived in two boxes, and only a putter was added.

If I ever summon the shear gall, effrontery, and impertinence to buy more golf clubs, I like the idea of reverting to the four and nine set in a more efficient way. I benefit from overlapping fairway woods and long irons because I play a course with more than the usual four par threes, with shortish par fives, and could thus use both the long irons and the fairway woods for different types of shots. With more flexible options now afforded by the new Hogan company, I could pull that off without hurting the bottom end of the set.

I don't have all the pieces to the following set, but I think that I could exploit it to my advantage. I think that other seniors, that women, and that juniors might also do well with it. Thoughts?

[hckymeyer]

Personally I have a hard time with overlapping lofts.  We only get 14 clubs so having 2 that go the same distance means I have to lose one that goes a distance I've already decided I want in the bag.

 

Whenever I think about adding or changing a club I ask myself 2 questions.  

• Can I hit it well 80% of the time?
• Will it save me more strokes than what I am taking out?

If the answer is yes to those 2 questions then it gets a shot in the bag, if the answer is no to either one it has no business being in my hands anywhere near a golf course.

 

For some people having overlapping lofts might make sense. You might want a low stinger that runs with an iron and a high shot that lands soft from a wood or hybrid that both cover similar distances.  I just know for my game if I add a club at the top for that type of shot I have to lose one at the bottom and I'd rather have the extra scoring club.

[NiftyNiblick]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting, 'meyer. A younger, stronger player needs a stronger than 14º club in his bag, and that alone puts my proposed set off the table.

 

But for other players, especially players with technique but with diminished flexibility and/or strength, not needing that 10º club opens opportunities.

[jaskanski]

Is it not possible to overlap multiple distances with multiple clubs from any set? For example, when people ask me what my 150 yard club is, I normally say "about 9 of them"

Don't make put Luke Donald on again.....

[Mike Z]

Loft has a lot to do with distance but not everything.  Length and hotness of face are other factors.  If I could hit a nook-wand (hybrid) somewhat consistently I suspect that it would be longer than an equivalently-lofted non-GI iron.  I think its great that we are talking about lofts and understanding gaps in sets, but to ascribe gaps only to loft could lead to less than optimal decisions.

 

Now, if we want to talk about MY l.o.f.t (lack of fricking talent) we could have a whole thread on it....

[NiftyNiblick]

The question is not whether the proposed set should become the proposed standard, because I'd be the first to admit that it should not.

My query is whether or not anyone can follow my thinking on how it could help a certain type of player. I'm certainly not a high level player, and was barely so (8 hdcp) at my very best. I am, however, an experienced player who knows that there are different ways to get from A to B, and also knows in what circumstance one way might be better than the other.

For me, it's not a question of room in the bag. Currently available choices afford me the room in the bag. I would not be missing anything I need with the possible exception of an oval-faced, dedicated sand iron with curved leading edge. I do have an easier time with those.

 

Also, Luke Donald is not the talent level to which I'm addressing this.  I already know that I could play this set effectively because I know my game.  I was just curious if anybody else could.

[hckymeyer]

Nifty I'll add this as well.  It's easier to justify an overlapping lofted club if you play the same course all the time and specific shots that could benefit from it.

 

I play 98% of my rounds at my home course.  There is one hole that has a very challenging tee shot.  It's a dog leg left par 4.  OB right, Woods left and sand traps long through the dog leg.  It's about 220 to the 150 marker off the tee.  Safe shots are straight anywhere from 180 - 230ish depending how left or right you are.

 

My go-to shot is a 17 degree hybrid that goes on the longer side of safe.  It goes very high though and if you get above the tree line the wind can slap it down, left or right depending on direction.  I'm in the process of building my version of a Jordan Spieth 3i.  I bought a 90 gram hybrid shaft that I'm going to install in a Speedblade 4i head and see what happens.  If it works well I'm hoping for a 210-220 yd club that I can flight lower than the hybrid.  I'm not sure what I will take out to put that in the bag, but it could easily be a wedge and that would put me squarely in the overlapping loft category just due to one specific tee shot that I face every round and routinely have trouble with.

[NiftyNiblick]

I've got run-on targets and air mail targets over the same distances on my home course.  The proposed set is definitely conceived with my home course in mind.  I have to admit that. But I can see that you get what I'm talking about.

[jaskanski]

I see what you're saying.

What I would say is this:

Instead of taking the assumptive route to work out what should or shouldn't be in your bag, try taking the logical route in deciding what works best. That almost certainly means getting properly fitted, but it also means being honest with your own game and using what works best given your level of skill and ability.

Once you have a baseline of what you can do with the ball, it is then the time to work out what club (or clubs) can give a playable trajectory to give you the distance you want.

Again, when I say a playable trajectory, I mean a club that will travel and carry (and stop) at the desired yardage, given the ground conditions and the players swing.

90% of the time, that means any defined set that you can buy OTR simply will not fit the bill for any given player to provide not only consistent yardage gapping, but also a ball flight that will hold greens etc.

Therefore the best solution is to have a full bag fitting with a professional who will listen to your needs and recommend a set up based on your ability. I virtually guarantee that will not be anything like what was previously considered a traditional "standard" set - not even for a single digit player. 

Basically, if you want to improve, you need to think smarter about what you want and what you can play with - and unfortunately those two things may not be the same. But the smarter golfer is more likely to see a professional - and that will help any golfer of any level.

[Dhuck Whooker]

I remember when I first started playing, in 1976, wah!!!, having 1,3,4,5 wood-woods in the bag, irons 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,PW,SW, Putter.   Being an early adopter, well my dad was, the 5 wood bumped that 2 iron right away. 

 

But then time marched on, things began to change and hair started falling out..

 

Got to have a driver, then the 3 wood but some studly guys can crush a 4 wood like a 3 wood hats off to them.

 

Never could be consistent enough to warrant having a 4 wood and 5 wood, the 3 iron was useless except once it came in handy to fish a ball out of a picker bush.   Hence the hybrid has taken over for 3 clubs, wow, think about that.  No wonder I hit so many different kind of shots with it.  Bad ones that is.

 

The 60 wedge was welcomed to hit a high shot around the green, but many would say that a good player can use a 56 to do whatever I can with a 60, I'd agree with that, but I got to hit my own shots.

 

The key was covering the gap between the PW and the 56, (95-105 ish), so a gap wedge has a place in the bag and in our hearts.

[BIG STU]

I do have somewhat lapping lofts. I carry a 7 wood @ 21* and a 9 wood @ 24* that is close to my 4 & 5 irons which I still carry. I do hit the 7&9 woods further and higher than I do the 4&5 irons. For me I can get out of the rough better with the irons than the woods. On bare hard lies I hit the woods better. For me it just depends what is called for on the shot. I can also stop those woods better on the green than I can the irons. Odd ball setup for sure but it works for me.

In recent weeks i have made another change. I pulled the 60* wedge out of the bag nothing wrong with it I hit it fine but that 56* Renegar is so versitile I just use it. So I only carry 2 wedges like we did in days gone by. Less decision making that way

[BIG STU]

I remember when I first started playing, in 1976, wah!!!, having 1,3,4,5 wood-woods in the bag, irons 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,PW,SW, Putter.   Being an early adopter, well my dad was, the 5 wood bumped that 2 iron right away. 

 

But then time marched on, things began to change and hair started falling out..

 

Got to have a driver, then the 3 wood but some studly guys can crush a 4 wood like a 3 wood hats off to them.

 

Never could be consistent enough to warrant having a 4 wood and 5 wood, the 3 iron was useless except once it came in handy to fish a ball out of a picker bush.   Hence the hybrid has taken over for 3 clubs, wow, think about that.  No wonder I hit so many different kind of shots with it.  Bad ones that is.

 

The 60 wedge was welcomed to hit a high shot around the green, but many would say that a good player can use a 56 to do whatever I can with a 60, I'd agree with that, but I got to hit my own shots.

 

The key was covering the gap between the PW and the 56, (95-105 ish), so a gap wedge has a place in the bag and in our hearts.

Oh yeah I will be the first one to tell you absolutely you have to do it your way period. My gaps are a little different on the wedge end than most since I play older traditional clubs. My PW is 48* and then to the 56* Being old school taught I know how to feather the PW to close the gap if it is too much for the 56. But that is the way I learned the game back in the Dinosaur era. Do it the way you know how all the way around and NEVER let anyone tell you different

[silver & black]

Now, if we want to talk about MY l.o.f.t (lack of fricking talent)

 

LOL... I'm definitely going to use this at some time!

[Dhuck Whooker]

Oh yeah I will be the first one to tell you absolutely you have to do it your way period. My gaps are a little different on the wedge end than most since I play older traditional clubs. My PW is 48* and then to the 56* Being old school taught I know how to feather the PW to close the gap if it is too much for the 56. But that is the way I learned the game back in the Dinosaur era. Do it the way you know how all the way around and NEVER let anyone tell you different

Actually Big Stu until I grew up at age 46, I couldn't hit my wedges solid. Didnt practice enough. As we all know without that there was no hope for any distance control at all.

 

Your good feel comes from good skill.

[Kenny B]

Late to the party on this one due to my travels.  I have issues with the clubs at the top end of the bag. When my swing speed dropped some years ago, I found out that it didn't really matter what I used and what the lofts were.  They all went the same distance anyway.  I gave up on the 3W a year ago because I couldn't hit it consistently enough to justify it being in the bag.  I went to a 10 year old Sonartec 4W at 17* and it's OK for my long shots in the fairway, but someday that may be gone too.  My next club is a Sonartec 7W at 24* (I'm laughing out loud; Big Stu's 9W is 24*).  I also use a RBZ 25* hybrid.  There is not a lot of difference in yardage between these clubs.  Just different shots from different lies.  My first iron starts with my Ping i20 5i.  I have to make up what I lack on the top end with clubs on the bottom end, so I have 5 SCOR irons ranging from 42* to 58*.  I know what distances they each go, and none will ever leave the bag for a club on the top end.  Makes no sense for me. 

[EthanSterlingPrice]

Interesting concept there Nifty I'm gonna show this to my grandfather, this could really help him I think.

[NiftyNiblick]

At the end of the day, my off-the-beaten-path set configurations work because I'm not missing anything.  If my drives were forty yards longer, I'd have to stretch the set out to cover a broader range; then, of course, overlapping lofts would in that case cause me to have missing parts unless I played with about seventeen clubs.

 

Let's look at the set once more:

 

 

There are no holes there with the one previously mentioned exception;  My sand game is definitely better with a dedicated sand iron--oval face, curved leading edge to reduce sand resistance.  I would not give up a conventional wedge for this one trick pony, so there lies yet another instance for a helpful overlap. I think I'd' drop the "long iron" but keep the "driving iron." 

 

Or, I could go with the Ogio Pisa and its fifteen slots!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EthanSterlingPrice]

Right now I hit the ball well enough with my current set makeup but my grandfather can't hit over a 6 iron and expect to get much benefit so he's been looking for some ways to mix his bag up and find the magic again