Operation: Beat SLDR

[dhayse32]

No sure if you only want a 2016 Driver, but I would strongly suggest trying out the FlyZ from last year (maybe you already have?).  I went from an R15/G30 LST/G30 to it and it is BY FAR the longest, most forgiving driver I have owned.  I compared it to the F6+ at the range and to me the FlyZ was better in all aspects. 

 

As for the SLDR...I hated that dang driver but I have a buddy that hits it amazing!

[Tony Covey MGS]

I recommend trying the new nike vapor drivers and the bomb tech grenade drivers

 

 

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I'd put chance of either beating the SLDR in this case at close to zero. Both Nike and the Grenade are high middle CG drivers. Effectively the opposite of what a guy who thrives with a SLDR would likely get his best results with.

 

I'm not sure I can explain the fade bias you get with the KING LTD (back CG, relatively centered on the face...if anything I'd expect more spin, and with expected closure rates being higher, a bit more of a left-starting ball flight. As much as I love the head, I find I hit it low on the face and it spins too much for me. The working theory is that it comes from the extra bit of dynamic loft resulting from the low/back CG.

 

It's not something you can walk into Dick's and buy, but there is an internal weight on the KING LTD. Cobra's custom department can drop in a lighter back weight and front load the head with hot melt. The end result might be something like a really low CG Na F6+. It's something I may toy with this season.

 

Hcky...I know you've looked at the charts.

 

Comps for the SLDR...M1, M1 430, F6+ weight (mid to forward), and just guess based on where I think CG will end up, Callaway Sub Zero. If you're looking at purely distance on best struck balls, I'd bet on the M1 430...dispersion plots over larger series of shots, I'd bet on the higher MOI of the F6+.

[GolfSpy Dave]

Ordered a new cobra fly Z+ yesterday morning, had lifetime long drives with my SLDR that afternoon.

 

Convinced that clubs know what's coming in the mail and that they then start behaving better.

[Kenny B]

Picked up a Bridgestone JGR driver yesterday.  JGR vs. SLDR for one week.

[hckymeyer]

2nd round in the books with the M1.  Played it solo today and didn't hit SLDR at all.  Still paired with the Kiyoshi Black.

 

I have the 10.5 430 head and I set it at full fade and all the way front.  Hosel was 1.5 lower so 9 degree loft.  Ball flight was looking a little funky, almost knuckle ball-ish so after a few holes I set the front-to-back slider to neutral and upped the loft to 10 degrees.  Those settings felt much better and was getting a consistent mid-high ball flight with a straight or slight fade.

 

Still only 45-48 degree's outside so not swinging my best but I had no big misses.  I'm really starting to think I need some professional advice to dial in a driver and see if it's better than SLDR.  

 

Next round is on Sunday, still not sure what setup get's the nod.

[Mr_Theoo]

2nd round in the books with the M1.  Played it solo today and didn't hit SLDR at all.  Still paired with the Kiyoshi Black.

 

I have the 10.5 430 head and I set it at full fade and all the way front.  Hosel was 1.5 lower so 9 degree loft.  Ball flight was looking a little funky, almost knuckle ball-ish so after a few holes I set the front-to-back slider to neutral and upped the loft to 10 degrees.  Those settings felt much better and was getting a consistent mid-high ball flight with a straight or slight fade.

 

Still only 45-48 degree's outside so not swinging my best but I had no big misses.  I'm really starting to think I need some professional advice to dial in a driver and see if it's better than SLDR.  

 

Next round is on Sunday, still not sure what setup get's the nod.

 

Professional help may be what you need, I know there us no way I could have stumbled on the SLDR setup I have  without a fitter.

[Kenny B]

Professional help may be what you need, I know there us no way I could have stumbled on the SLDR setup I have  without a fitter.

I think most of us here could use professional help... if you know what I mean!  

[Fourpar18]

Broke my original SLDR, but got a new one. But it is officially out of the bag. Replaced with the BB Alpha. Still worried I made the wrong decision, so I am shipping the SLDR to my brother. He loves it.

The new 816 is sweet set up and it's long too!

 

 

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[hckymeyer]

I'd put chance of either beating the SLDR in this case at close to zero. Both Nike and the Grenade are high middle CG drivers. Effectively the opposite of what a guy who thrives with a SLDR would likely get his best results with.

 

I'm not sure I can explain the fade bias you get with the KING LTD (back CG, relatively centered on the face...if anything I'd expect more spin, and with expected closure rates being higher, a bit more of a left-starting ball flight. As much as I love the head, I find I hit it low on the face and it spins too much for me. The working theory is that it comes from the extra bit of dynamic loft resulting from the low/back CG.

 

It's not something you can walk into Dick's and buy, but there is an internal weight on the KING LTD. Cobra's custom department can drop in a lighter back weight and front load the head with hot melt. The end result might be something like a really low CG Na F6+. It's something I may toy with this season.

 

Hcky...I know you've looked at the charts.

 

Comps for the SLDR...M1, M1 430, F6+ weight (mid to forward), and just guess based on where I think CG will end up, Callaway Sub Zero. If you're looking at purely distance on best struck balls, I'd bet on the M1 430...dispersion plots over larger series of shots, I'd bet on the higher MOI of the F6+.

 

The F6+ has been really interesting to hit.  I never had a big miss with it, but everything was a fade.  There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I've been working for the past 3 seasons on trying to hit a draw with the driver and when you can't that's frustrating.  I'm sure a lot of that is my early season swing and colder temps.  

 

After playing SLDR for so long it's just odd to have a driver that always feels pretty much the same no matter how you hit it.  Nuke one and it's about the same as a toe job.  When you nuke one with SLDR you really know you nuked it, and it goes and goes.  Maybe that's what I'm actually looking for and I just don't know it.  

[Mr_Theoo]

When you nuke one with SLDR you really know you nuked it, and it goes and goes. Maybe that's what I'm actually looking for and I just don't know it.

That's what I'm looking for! I really loved the G30 LS tec super fun to hit and I could hit it long but it never seemed to have that extra little gear the SLDR had when you hit it on the screws.

[Fireinthehole]

I am interested to see how the m1 430 works. It supposedly is as forgiving as the 460 but with less spin.

 

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[Kanoito]

I kind of gave up trying to find the next best driver... I've been trying for 3 years and still haven't found anything better.

What I do now is take my gamer to the demo days, hit them side by side, ask the rep to set-up their newest/shiniest toy. If it beats my gamer, I'll buy it on the spot.

None has succeeded so far

It saves me the hassle of purchasing different head/shaft combos and tweaking them myself.

[revkev]

This is the advantage of being not do long, the difference between a Nuke and a serious miss hit is 15 yards.

 

Back to the Nuked SLDR can't it get you into trouble? If you are picking the right line off of tees doesn't it get you in trouble to hit it 20 yards farther? I'm sorry to change horses but most of the courses that I play have lots of holes where 20 more yards on the line that I've selected would be NG. I'd much rather know that it's going the same distance all the time.

 

I was intrigued by T's comments. It's a reminder that differing CGs fit different golfers.

[Kor.A.Door]

2nd round in the books with the M1. Played it solo today and didn't hit SLDR at all. Still paired with the Kiyoshi Black.

 

I have the 10.5 430 head and I set it at full fade and all the way front. Hosel was 1.5 lower so 9 degree loft. Ball flight was looking a little funky, almost knuckle ball-ish so after a few holes I set the front-to-back slider to neutral and upped the loft to 10 degrees. Those settings felt much better and was getting a consistent mid-high ball flight with a straight or slight fade.

 

Still only 45-48 degree's outside so not swinging my best but I had no big misses. I'm really starting to think I need some professional advice to dial in a driver and see if it's better than SLDR.

 

Next round is on Sunday, still not sure what setup get's the nod.

I can get you the number of a good shrink if you like. You know, for the professional help.

[Kor.A.Door]

I've been played by the x2hot pro for the last couple yesrs, and I don't know why I would change, I think sometimes that I will just get something new, but, everytime I swing something new I know that it wasn't better than what I have so there is no point. I am intrigued by the M2 3 wood but that's a whole different set of questions.

[fozcycle]

Going to give it a little more time, but if it continues the way it's been it's going to be up for grabs.

 

 

The F6+ warrants further testing.  Hanging on to it for now.

 

The King LTD head is going to be sold, just haven't made the ad yet.  i was going to wait and see if I wanted to get rid of any shafts at the same time.  Are you interested?

 

 

Very possibly.  I hit one on the launch monitor last month and really liked the feel and results. Tried the Fly Z+ but it just was not as good as my Bio Cell, so next up is the King LTD.

 

[Tony Covey MGS]

I am interested to see how the m1 430 works. It supposedly is as forgiving as the 460 but with less spin.

 

 

Those two things are a bit at odds with each other. As CG moves forward, MOI drops. The best we can say is that an M1 430 with the weight back is nearly as forgiving as an M1 with the weight forward. 

 

If that's where you'd position the weight, then it becomes a question of face impact and how the difference in resulting dynamic loft affects your impact parameters.

 

Also worth mentioning, weight forward positions will create slower closure rates than back weight positions. The m1 430 is a beast (albeit a super-low MOI beast) with the weight forward, but for me anyway, I really have to put more effort than I'd like into getting it close to square at impact. My miss with it is - shining the best light on it possible - a 2 to 3 fairway fade. 

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

My miss with it is - shining the best light on it possible - a 2 to 3 fairway fade.

That's up there with a Drop-Kick Stinger.

 

 

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[hckymeyer]

Those two things are a bit at odds with each other. As CG moves forward, MOI drops. The best we can say is that an M1 430 with the weight back is nearly as forgiving as an M1 with the weight forward. 

 

If that's where you'd position the weight, then it becomes a question of face impact and how the difference in resulting dynamic loft affects your impact parameters.

 

Also worth mentioning, weight forward positions will create slower closure rates than back weight positions. The m1 430 is a beast (albeit a super-low MOI beast) with the weight forward, but for me anyway, I really have to put more effort than I'd like into getting it close to square at impact. My miss with it is - shining the best light on it possible - a 2 to 3 fairway fade. 

Very interesting, I never thought about closure rates with the weight forward.  I ended the round with the 430 set at 10 degrees, all the way to draw and the front-to-back setting at neutral.  It did seem a little easier to keep from going right in that setting.

 

With the F6+ I just put the weight all the way forward and left it.  I haven't played around with different setting on that one.

 

Ball flight comparison is interesting between those to two heads though.  The 430 at 10 and neutral flights much lower for me than the F6+ at 9 and all the way forward.  I'd like to try the F6+ Pro head to see if I can bring the flight down a little and allow me to move the weight back.

 

Might be a case of "famous last words" but I'm not buying another head until I go get fit

[Jmikecpa]

The new 816 is sweet set up and it's long too!

 

 

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The 815 is no slouch either. I picked one up this year and paired it with a Tour AD DI 7x....absolute beast.

 

 

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[Tony Covey MGS]

Very interesting, I never thought about closure rates with the weight forward.  I ended the round with the 430 set at 10 degrees, all the way to draw and the front-to-back setting at neutral.  It did seem a little easier to keep from going right in that setting.

 

With the F6+ I just put the weight all the way forward and left it.  I haven't played around with different setting on that one.

 

Ball flight comparison is interesting between those to two heads though.  The 430 at 10 and neutral flights much lower for me than the F6+ at 9 and all the way forward.  I'd like to try the F6+ Pro head to see if I can bring the flight down a little and allow me to move the weight back.

 

Might be a case of "famous last words" but I'm not buying another head until I go get fit

 

One other quick note about F6+, the weight channel is slightly offset such that it's slightly toe biased in the front position and slightly heel biased in the back.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

The 815 is no slouch either. I picked one up this year and paired it with a Tour AD DI 7x....absolute beast.

 

 

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Just put a Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 73 in my 815 DBD....ermagawd!  

[Jmikecpa]

Just put a Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 73 in my 815 DBD....ermagawd!

The 815 DBD is a beast in and of itself. I opted for the other version since I was looking for more forgiveness. I actually bought it for a travel set of clubs along with a bunch of other Callaway goodies......and have been using them over my Titleist woods and Hogan irons.

 

 

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[hckymeyer]

First round of posting handicap season today so had to pick one setup and play it rather than hitting all of them.  I decided to go with M1 but I swapped in the Diamana from my SLDR.  Wind was dead in to us for the majority of holes and blowing 20ish so not the greatest weather for driving results, but I was pretty happy all day.  M1 is definitely capable of poor results with a poor swing, but it didn't seem like mishits were punished quite as badly as with the SLDR.  I hit a few I thought would end very poorly and weren't nearly as bad as I thought

 

This is definitely a combo I could comfortably play all year, still plan on going in for a fitting though.  Also still not sure it's better than my SLDR setup.  Not worse though either...

[Undershooter]

Not surprised you like it.

Finally got to hit a M1 with a decent shaft and was very pleasantly surprised. Set on 8.5 it was super low spin with a 7m3 in X. Sadly I'm tempted even though I don't like how it looks at address.

[hckymeyer]

First chance I've had to play since the 3rd so went to the range for the first time this year and tested some stuff out.

 

M1 430 + Diamana - Still a combo I could play.  Doesn't feel quite the same as the SLDR, not worse but for some reason doesn't feel quite as explosive off of the face.  Having a hard time putting the difference in to words.

 

F6+ w/ AD BB - I've had it set at weight forward and 9.5 draw since I've been testing it.  I've not been able to hit anything but high fades with it the whole time.  The nice part is a very predictable ball flight, just not necessarily the ball flight I'm looking for.  

 

Today I switched the weight to all the way back, same 9.5D loft and same AD BB shaft.  For some reason the ball flight actually came down and now I can hit it straight and sometimes a slight draw.  Have to thank T for suggesting moving the weight back to pick up some additional draw bias.

 

Weather today was mid 40's and 10mph wind.  It actually was snowing for a couple holes.  I hit some drives with the F6+ though that I would be very happy with in 80 degrees and calm.  Still haven't been in for a fitting but I'm definitely playing this combo in my round tomorrow.  Supposed to be mid 60 and lower wind so should be a better test of how it performs.

 

Barbajo - Tried the HZRDUS one more time on the range, definitely not for me.  Let me know if you are seriously interested.

[Sschaffer24]

You know Hcky I'm in a similar spot to you. I've been gaming my G30 LSTec for awhile now and am just feeling like it might be time to make a move.

 

The problem is to just compare something for one day when you're at the range makes it tough. I'll have to look into buying some heads/shafts like you guys do and test that way.

 

I've been thinking about applying for the Nike test spot, but I can't find any information on the CG of that thing. Their site says it's the lowest spinning driver they make, but I want my next driver to be SLDR/M1 430 like in its CG. Anyone have insight?

[Tony Covey MGS]

You know Hcky I'm in a similar spot to you. I've been gaming my G30 LSTec for awhile now and am just feeling like it might be time to make a move.

 

The problem is to just compare something for one day when you're at the range makes it tough. I'll have to look into buying some heads/shafts like you guys do and test that way.

 

I've been thinking about applying for the Nike test spot, but I can't find any information on the CG of that thing. Their site says it's the lowest spinning driver they make, but I want my next driver to be SLDR/M1 430 like in its CG. Anyone have insight?

 

We're working to get the Nike heads added to our CG chart. I believe it's a reasonably safe assumption that it won't be radically different from last year. Ball park estimate...high-mid CG. With Pro and Speed trending towards high-back.

 

As with Bombtech's Grenade, the cavity is significant limiting factor in CG placement. The mandatory weight in driver design is in the face and in the crown. You can't do much about the face (it has to be durable), and even with lighter materials (composites), if your shape is traditional, there's only so much you can do to cut mass. Remember Hi-Bore...that changed the crown equation, but it was hardly traditional.

 

Cavities...Nike and Bombtech push more weight to the crown and that raises CG to a degree that you can't entirely compensate for. Speed will work well for guys who need help getting the ball up, but I suspect it will be spinny. Higher CG designs in general can work well for positive AoA guys who generally hit the ball higher on the face. 

That last piece is what golfers often fail to consider.

 

Simple answer to your question, Flex will almost certainly be closer to the Grenade than it is the M1 430. There's really not a lot new in the super low/forward space this season (it's really not a spec that's well-suited for a high percentage of golfers). F6+ in forward positions, and, I suspect, Sub Zero will be the closest from the new for 2016 crop.

[Sschaffer24]

So just to clarify for myself then, you're saying the design of the Cavity back design is pushing the CG higher into the club because of Nike having to redistribute weight to the crown for support from the club?

 

Now with the Cavity pulling the CG higher in the face, for spin purposes is it better to have the CG more forward or rearward in the head? Say Nike was going to design their "low spin" club, how would they do that in their line with CG placement?

 

I guess spin is all relative to the golfer in the end.

 

I'm so surprised that fitters aren't talking more about THIS topic instead of just throwing marketing at you. I feel like a major component of a fitting should be monitoring a golfers strike location, and then finding a head that places the CG is the most relevant place to that to maximize launch characteristics.

[Tony Covey MGS]

So just to clarify for myself then, you're saying the design of the Cavity back design is pushing the CG higher into the club because of Nike having to redistribute weight to the crown for support from the club?

 

Now with the Cavity pulling the CG higher in the face, for spin purposes is it better to have the CG more forward or rearward in the head? Say Nike was going to design their "low spin" club, how would they do that in their line with CG placement?

 

I guess spin is all relative to the golfer in the end.

 

I'm so surprised that fitters aren't talking more about THIS topic instead of just throwing marketing at you. I feel like a major component of a fitting should be monitoring a golfers strike location, and then finding a head that places the CG is the most relevant place to that to maximize launch characteristics.

 

Whether it's shaft performance, club head launch/spin characteristics, nearly everything is relative within each manufacturer's own lineup. So yeah, in relative terms...terms relative to the Nike lineup, the Flex will be the lowest spinning.

 

Another spin-related consideration - Nike's heads tends to be closer the stamped loft than most. Basically, with any adjustable head, the stamped (or nominal) loft is going to be in the middle of the range. So the actual loft of a Nike head is 10.5° (halfway between 8.5 and 12.5 . TaylorMade, Callaway and others vanity loft by upwards of a degree (sometimes more), so a 10.5° head from somebody else is going to be, by design closer to 11.5° or 12° degrees.

 

At ACTUAL equivalent lofts (and assuming identical impact conditions), the higher CG club should spin more, but when it's 10.5° vs. 11°+ well, then you're dealing with a situation where the impact of actual loft will supersede your CG differences.

 

As far as why the cavity moves the CG higher...rough analogy, but imagine a driver head constructed of aluminum foil or something else that's easily pliable. Start with a conventional shape, now, without removing the material (because despite appearances the cavity does not occur because material is removed - instead material is redistributed), reshape the sole...create a cavity (the Nike or bombtech shape), and do it by pushing material from the sole up towards the crown (curl your fingers underneath). 

 

Effectively you're taking structure that was not far from the lowest point of the driver and pushing towards the highest point of the driver. Part of the bottom is now closer to the top. When you do that, the mass obviously goes with it.

 

You can lessen the effect on mass placement by using a lighter material in your cavity (RZN), but remember that the sole is where you need the weight to achieve low CG. So while you're not moving as much weight up as you would if the design was titanium-based, you're also losing the additional sole-placed mass that would come from a titanium sole. 

 

As for fitting implications...good fitters now this, although I do question how many fitters are overtly aware of CG location. Ideally you want a CG that aligns with the most frequent point of impact. The obvious implication is Top/Bottom CG (with consideration for how CG placement and resulting dynamic loft changes can alter impact locations), but consider sliding and left/right movable weights. While that gets billed as shot shape correction, ultimately that too is about aligning the CG with the most predictable impact location.