PGA Over-Reaction

[~^~]

Don't you think it's funny? The Players at TPC Sawgrass couldn't stand it..the cut line was -2. Obviously the course is way too easy. Nobody wants the pros to come in and tear up their course records. Their solution? Don't water the greens Friday night and roll them extra. The result? Brown greens and putts that, if you sneeze on the ball, run 10 feet past. Obviously golf is just too easy. Hooray for the PGA.

[BIG STU]

Yeah I know of course the GC was commenting how "gettable" the course was on Thursday and Friday. You do know the GC dictates all policy regarding the USGA and now the PGA Tour. They had the head rules official Mark Russell on the GC a few minutes ago trying to lie their way out of the situation. Now the GC has flipped and taken the Player's side.

[revkev]

We were commenting on this over on the tournament discussion thread. The course was set up far too easy to begin with. But it was what it was.

 

To change it midstream like this was a joke. Very sad.

 

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[cksurfdude]

Question:

 

Being relatively new to the game, and not having played in any tournaments myself, I guess I don't understand some of the nuances of "course setup".

 

I get that for pro tourneys, and big ones in particular, there is a certain minimum standard of quality they look to achieve.

 

But, at the proverbial end of the day...

1. Given no major weather change intra-day, aren't all contestants playing under relatively similar conditions?

And,

2. Given that golf really is an outdoor game, aren't you supposed to 'play the course as you find it'?

[Undershooter]

Question:

 

Being relatively new to the game, and not having played in any tournaments myself, I guess I don't understand some of the nuances of "course setup".

 

I get that for pro tourneys, and big ones in particular, there is a certain minimum standard of quality they look to achieve.

 

But, at the proverbial end of the day...

1. Given no major weather change intra-day, aren't all contestants playing under relatively similar conditions?

And,

2. Given that golf really is an outdoor game, aren't you supposed to 'play the course as you find it'?

Yes everyone plays a similar course but they changed the golf course between rounds. Also those who went out later had it rougher. Its one thing to have a tough golf course all week and another to have the golf course changed on you. It wasn't purely the weather that did this. It was the officials who made the course play harder. Also if you set up greens to run unbelievably fast then you must counteract that by not putting pins in tough locations. Nothing on ridges or big slopes. Otherwise luck plays more into it than actual skill. There were quite a few pins yesterday that should have never been out there.

 

Hopefully they learned their lesson from yesterday.

 

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[The Dansome]

What makes the Players special is it's tough but anyone can score. This US Open survival mentality to save what ever face they're trying for is ridiculous... I would much rather have seen the same course all weekend and a shootout. What's wrong with a shootout?

 

Let the Players play and put on a show, last year was one of the best tournament finished in years.

 

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[Sproutland]

When greens get that fast the difference between a perfect putt and a three putt is a half inch of break at 15 feet especially when pins are on mounds or slopes.

 

 

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[The Dansome]

Watching early coverage, looks like they watered the greens, balls are holding and putts more manageably slower

 

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[cksurfdude]

Undershooter:

Great explanation; thx - now I understand a little more of what's going on.

[Kor.A.Door]

They sped up he course for sure, but, what they didn't expect was 20 mph winds all day that further accentuated the conditions and made the course extremely difficult, almost unplayable, they screwed up, but today they screwed up more by taking it back. With a 4 shot lead, unless he himself gets overtaken with nerves, there is no way he loses, they changed the course back to much easier.

[BIG STU]

What makes the Players special is it's tough but anyone can score. This US Open survival mentality to save what ever face they're trying for is ridiculous... I would much rather have seen the same course all weekend and a shootout. What's wrong with a shootout?

 

Let the Players play and put on a show, last year was one of the best tournament finished in years.

 

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I like it better myself when the best players in the world are throwing darts and sticking it. Yeah shootouts especially in a PGA event are fun to watch and bet on

[~^~]

Stu, I'm with you. I like to see irons stuck in close. Watching putting is boring enough on slow greens, but watching a guy take 5 minutes to 3-putt from 10 feet is super boring and bad TV.

[Undershooter]

They sped up he course for sure, but, what they didn't expect was 20 mph winds all day that further accentuated the conditions and made the course extremely difficult, almost unplayable, they screwed up, but today they screwed up more by taking it back. With a 4 shot lead, unless he himself gets overtaken with nerves, there is no way he loses, they changed the course back to much easier.

It's easier to run someone down when the golf course is gettable than when it's playing tough. When it's playing tough then you have to pray he makes mistakes and you don't. Far less pressure on him than if someone puts up a number.

[J_Wurz]

Stu, I'm with you. I like to see irons stuck in close. Watching putting is boring enough on slow greens, but watching a guy take 5 minutes to 3-putt from 10 feet is super boring and bad TV.

Exactly, because us amateurs do that all the time!!

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

It's easier to run someone down when the golf course is gettable than when it's playing tough. When it's playing tough then you have to pray he makes mistakes and you don't. Far less pressure on him than if someone puts up a number.

The point is that they should have let the course play as it always has, difficult from the start, they made it too easy on Thurs and Fri, they should have left it alone and let it be, but they messed it up and then tried to fix the error and screwed it up more, there was no excitement Sat, or Sunday. And this tournament is always exciting to watch, this year on Sunday I watched Stars Wars instead.

[Undershooter]

The point is that they should have let the course play as it always has, difficult from the start, they made it too easy on Thurs and Fri, they should have left it alone and let it be, but they messed it up and then tried to fix the error and screwed it up more, there was no excitement Sat, or Sunday. And this tournament is always exciting to watch, this year on Sunday I watched Stars Wars instead.

I don't disagree. My only caveat is that it should have been left easy if it had started easy or hard if it had started hard. Changing a golfcourse mid tournament is asinine. 

[The Dansome]

Changing the course conditions mid tournament is stupid. Just leave well enough alone and let the winner be the guy who just shoots lights out. Yesterday was great because if someone scored, which the conditions were there, we coulda had some crazy drama down the stretch. The potential for a Rickie round was there.

 

I really hope the PGA is score-able this year like some past events, Valhalla was so exciting down the stretch. Make it tough enough, but heck gimme 6-15 guys making tons of birdies on Sunday any day.

[The Dansome]

http://www.golfshake.com/news/view/9838/Want_To_Kill_The_Game_The_PGA_Tour_Showed_Us_How_At_Sawgrass.html

[BigtazzGolf]

http://www.golfshake.com/news/view/9838/Want_To_Kill_The_Game_The_PGA_Tour_Showed_Us_How_At_Sawgrass.html

Here here I say. I say that is right on the money.

This isn't rocket science and you don't need 9000 yd courses to challenge the best. You just have to set it up right and leave it that way for 4 days and if nature gets involved then so be it. And for the love of goodness, fix the bunkers so it really is a penalty to hit into them instead of a reward.

 

Tazz

[Undershooter]

http://www.golfshake.com/news/view/9838/Want_To_Kill_The_Game_The_PGA_Tour_Showed_Us_How_At_Sawgrass.html

Great article and spot on in my opinion. 

[jaskanski]

Seems like old news to me. If anyone remembers how Greg Norman absolutely mauled it in 1994 with a record score of -24 (Nick Price managed -18 the year before) prompting the Pga to modify the greens to a firmer, slicker surface and making the 1995 winning score by Lee Janzen a more sedate -5.

The problem is the course was designed as a Stadium course to showcase the prowess of touring pros and make for spectacular scoring for TV - most players had no problem in making low scores. 

Yes, tricking up the greens was a shameless over-reaction mid tourney by the hosts, but in a sense the whole set up of the tournament in general deserves all the criticism it gets. It's little short of a circus freak show if you ask me, although the PGA have wisely stopped short of adding a clowns mouth and a windmill to putt through on some of the greens - and testament to why it will never ever be the fifth major.

But well done to Jason Day anyway for winning it. 

[Kor.A.Door]

I don't disagree. My only caveat is that it should have been left easy if it had started easy or hard if it had started hard. Changing a golfcourse mid tournament is asinine.

I agree there, it should have been left alone once they screwed up on Thursday.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Reminds me of some of the other disasters. From what I read, they were blaming the weather... which is great, considering what perceptions meteorologist have. Rant aside, it's a typical case of overcorrecting a mistake.

[~^~]

For those who like seeing tough courses and players struggle, you're gonna love this years U.S. Open at Oakmont. From Wikipedia:

 

Quotes from notable golfers

USGA Sr. Director of Rules and Competitions Mike Davis: "There's a reason [the U.S. Open is] coming back to Oakmont. This really is the gold standard for championship golf. It doesn't get any better than Oakmont."[20]

Lee Trevino: “There's only one course in the country where you could step out right now — right now — and play the U.S. Open, and that's Oakmont.”[21]

Phil Mickelson: "It's really a neat, special place."[22]

Johnny Miller: "It's probably the best course in the world . . . This is the greatest course I've ever played."[22]

 

On Oakmont's greens:

 

Tiger Woods:"That golf course is going to be one of the toughest tests that we've ever played in a U.S. Open, especially if it's dry, it will be unreal because those greens are so severe."[8]

Arnold Palmer: "You can hit 72 greens [in regulation] in the Open at Oakmont and not come close to winning."[22]

Rocco Mediate said of the greens that they are "almost impossible"

Sam Snead once commented that he tried to mark his ball on one of Oakmont's greens but the coin slid off.[8]

Lee Trevino claimed every time he two-putted at Oakmont he knew he was passing somebody on the leader board.[8]

Johnny Miller said that Oakmont's are the greatest set of greens for testing a player's ability to putt.[8]

USGA Sr. Director Mike Davis: "[Oakmont's greens are the] scariest in golf."[8]

[revkev]

For those who like seeing tough courses and players struggle, you're gonna love this years U.S. Open at Oakmont. From Wikipedia:

 

Quotes from notable golfers

USGA Sr. Director of Rules and Competitions Mike Davis: "There's a reason [the U.S. Open is] coming back to Oakmont. This really is the gold standard for championship golf. It doesn't get any better than Oakmont."[20]

Lee Trevino: “There's only one course in the country where you could step out right now — right now — and play the U.S. Open, and that's Oakmont.”[21]

Phil Mickelson: "It's really a neat, special place."[22]

Johnny Miller: "It's probably the best course in the world . . . This is the greatest course I've ever played."[22]

 

On Oakmont's greens:

 

Tiger Woods:"That golf course is going to be one of the toughest tests that we've ever played in a U.S. Open, especially if it's dry, it will be unreal because those greens are so severe."[8]

Arnold Palmer: "You can hit 72 greens [in regulation] in the Open at Oakmont and not come close to winning."[22]

Rocco Mediate said of the greens that they are "almost impossible"

Sam Snead once commented that he tried to mark his ball on one of Oakmont's greens but the coin slid off.[8]

Lee Trevino claimed every time he two-putted at Oakmont he knew he was passing somebody on the leader board.[8]

Johnny Miller said that Oakmont's are the greatest set of greens for testing a player's ability to putt.[8]

USGA Sr. Director Mike Davis: "[Oakmont's greens are the] scariest in golf."[8]

The difference is that it will be that way from day one. In fact even in practice rounds.

 

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[sp0rtsfan86]

The difference is that it will be that way from day one. In fact even in practice rounds.

 

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And you expect tough conditions going into the tournament. The PGA was just a disaster all around.

[jlew2144]

I enjoyed watching it, if for nothing else to realize that I'm not the only one who 4 putts after putting the ball on the green   

[cksurfdude]

I enjoyed watching it, if for nothing else to realize that I'm not the only one who 4 putts after putting the ball on the green

Ha! If I'm lucky enough ;-) to lag the first one close my running joke on any green is: "Oh, I can 3-putt from there!"

[Sproutland]

The difference is that it will be that way from day one. In fact even in practice rounds.

 

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They have drilled and filled 5 times, deep verticut 4 times, and deep till aerated 4 times in the last two years. Those greens are probably ready right now for the open (rolling at 13).

 

 

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