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What don't you like?


revkev

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This is sort of a flip side to Super Dave's thread but rather than a course it's a hole. We all know that HCKYmeyer doesn't like bunkers in the middle of the fairway which eliminates most Nicklaus and all Arthur Hills courses for him. But what about you? What is it about a hole that you don't like and why?

 

For me it's the dogleg par 3. You know the one with a tree that blocks half the green forcing a draw or worse a fade. Next is the mid length par 4 that has some ridiculous feature forcing something like 6 iron, 4 hybrid into the green. Lastly while HCKY doesn't like bunkers in the middle of the fairway they can be played around, short of or for a guy like him over not so the 🌳 I despise the tree in the middle of the fairway.

 

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SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I'm with you Rev, "dogleg" par 3, stupid long par 4 or a tree in the middle of the fairway, which I inevitably wind up hitting.

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I hate big trees in the middle of the fairway, but I love bunkers in the middle of the fairway. I also don't like black-boys (an Australian grasstree).

Driver: Cobra F9 Speedback (9.0) with Fujikura Atmos 7X (Avalanche White) 

3 Wood: Callaway Epic Sub-Zero (15 degrees) in Rogue Max 75g stiff shaft

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I tend to be along the same line as you guys, but for me it's the moguls or set of hills in the fairways so if you manage to hit your fairway you have and uphill/ downhill lie, very unfair in my eyes, why should I be penalized for hitting a fairway?? Don't get a lot of these funky designs.

 

 

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We have a local course with a 220 yard par 3 - uphill, and has a huge tree about 20 yards in front of the green - dead center, totally blocking your view of the green. Never known anyone to hit the green even by accident! It's always a get close and hope for a good up/down.

 

 

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Tricked up golf courses and gimmick holes.  I have played some great courses in terms of layout that were just flat out unplayable due to the conditions.  The one that sticks out is the first time I played Plainfield in NJ (one of the Barclays rota courses).  Hit my opening tee shot and missed the fairway by literally a step and my caddy told me at best I had a punch out to the fairway...those conditions ruined a great course Donald Ross course for me. 

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I don't like hidden danger.  No matter what is happening with the hole, if you know what's there then you know what is required and can go from there.

 

What I abhor is hitting what was a great shot  - exactly what I intended to do and wind-up in trouble.  Its not so much an issue when you have played a course a couple of times.  When it is a real issue is when its an unfamiliar course, no caddies, no yardage book etc and then there is trouble hidden is a spot that the hole is visually telling you is the best spot to be.

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I don't like extremely demanding holes that offer no possible way to minimize risk.  I think there should always be an option to lay up short, or a safe play to one side or another.  For this reason, I'm not wild about island greens, or long forced carries.  The other thing I dislike has been mentioned in the other thread, I don't like being forced to lay up on a par 4 and then have a longer second shot than my first.  The idea of hitting 6-iron and then hybrid makes my hair hurt.

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Rev summed up my previous thoughts nicely :)

 

I've actually been thinking about this the past couple days and realized it boils down to 2 things for me.  I dislike holes where you don't have options.  I like being able to make a decision about how I want to play the hole.  I don't always want that choice taken away from me based on the design of the hole.  Example is the 15th hole at my course.  It's a par 4 dog leg left.  220-230 down the middle puts you at the 150 with a clear shot to the green.  Left is all woods, right is OB.  Long has 3 bunkers and really long brings more woods in to play and a blocked 2nd shot.  There's just no bail out and no options other than hitting a specific distance down the middle.

 

The 2nd for me is only something you notice if you play a course a lot.  A hole that gets repetitive due to lack of pin placements.  I play 95% of my rounds at my home course and we have one green that realistically only has 2 pin placements.  It's a par 3 with a big kidney shaped green.  Severe slope to an elevated middle section of the green and then much lower on the front and left side.  You can put the pin right in the front or up on the high section in the middle.  The slope is too severe for any pin between those two points.  My favorite pin is back left on the lower section.  There is a bunker in front of that pin so it's a risk reward shot, but anything on the left side of the green will funnel back to the pin.  The problem is that is where everyone walks onto and off the green.  So the greenskeeper never puts the pin there because he thinks there is too much traffic and it will wreck the green.

 

At the end of the day though I'd still rather be golfing on a course I dislike than not golfing at all :)

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This is sort of a flip side to Super Dave's thread but rather than a course it's a hole. We all know that HCKYmeyer doesn't like bunkers in the middle of the fairway which eliminates most Nicklaus and all Arthur Hills courses for him. But what about you? What is it about a hole that you don't like and why?

 

For me it's the dogleg par 3. You know the one with a tree that blocks half the green forcing a draw or worse a fade. Next is the mid length par 4 that has some ridiculous feature forcing something like 6 iron, 4 hybrid into the green. Lastly while HCKY doesn't like bunkers in the middle of the fairway they can be played around, short of or for a guy like him over not so the I despise the tree in the middle of the fairway.

 

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I wrote about this in the "course" thread; my wife not being able to hit driver off the tee, but then can't get to the green with a 3W.  Anyway, what's wrong with hitting a 6i or hybrid into the green??  I do that on most of my par 4's anyway!  lol

 

Last winter while playing in Florida, my wife and I went to Eagle Creek GC south of Orlando.  It's a nice course, but I found very penal fairway bunkers; deep with high lips.  Granted, I am not the best bunker player, but I don't like bunkers where the only option is to hit a wedge back into the fairway.  

 

I'm with you Rev, "dogleg" par 3, stupid long par 4 or a tree in the middle of the fairway, which I inevitably wind up hitting.

 

 

I think most of us agree with all that is posted about our least favorite holes.  The tree in the middle of the fairway?  I guess we don't want to play #18 at Pebble Beach!  lol

 

 

I tend to be along the same line as you guys, but for me it's the moguls or set of hills in the fairways so if you manage to hit your fairway you have and uphill/ downhill lie, very unfair in my eyes, why should I be penalized for hitting a fairway?? Don't get a lot of these funky designs.

 

 

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It depends on how severe the slopes are.  My course has undulating fairways, but except for a couple of holes, they aren't bad.  It's been a year since I joined this course and I am still learning how to hit off downhill slopes.  I agree with you if the slopes are severe.  There is a course in Hood River, Oregon that has severe uphill/downhill fairways.  If you carry the hill, then you have a downhill lie to an uphill green.  If you don't carry the hill, you have an uphill lie, but you just lost 50 yards off the tee because the ball hits into the slope, and you probably can't get to the green with the next shot.

 

It seems like many of the small, local courses not designed by the big architects have more gimmicky holes designed to make them difficult in some way.  These local knowledge holes infuriate me when I travel, because after I play one of these holes, I know that the next time I would play it differently and I would score much better.  However, I vow never to come back!!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I'm not a fan of blind tee shots. I hate not seeing where I'm going.

That's a favorite gimmick on local courses.  If you play the course every day, you get used to where to hit the ball and know what to expect.  It's a different story if you have never played the course.  I have played courses where they have installed a mirror on a tall tree or pole, so you can see if the group in front of you is out of the landing area.  At one course I was informed that the mirror was there during my second round!!!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Interesting point on those two trees on 18 at Pebble Kenny. There is room left if you want to avoid them but then you have to take on that little water hazard on the left that you may have overlooked before you saw the trees. :)

 

Actually golf course design is like composing 🎶. The great ones are allowed to break the rules occasionally for effect. I'd say that 18 at Pebble is pretty effective.

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Interesting point on those two trees on 18 at Pebble Kenny. There is room left if you want to avoid them but then you have to take on that little water hazard on the left that you may have overlooked before you saw the trees. :)

 

Actually golf course design is like composing . The great ones are allowed to break the rules occasionally for effect. I'd say that 18 at Pebble is pretty effective.

 

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My home course is a links course...mostly.  We have tree's on 2 holes but that's about it.  Except for the 13th hole.  It's a straight par 4 with no real trouble.  OB left and right, but it's a long ways and shouldn't come in to play.  The cool part though is there is one tree.  A big oak up the left side of the fairway.  It's in the rough, but overhangs a little bit to the left side of the fairway.  Go up the right and there is no trouble.  Pull it down the left and a pounded drive gets by it, a mis hit stays far enough back to go over it.  But that kind of stock normal drive leaves you right behind or underneath it.  It's the first tree you see on the entire course and it's amazing how often it comes in to play.

 

FWIW I really like that hole and without that tree it would be pretty boring.  I agree that for the most part (excluding Pebble) a tree in the middle of the fairway is stupid, but a well placed tree can take a mediocre golf hole and make it something special.

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And it's probably 15 feet from being stupid. That's great design. Those trees at Pebble are brilliant. And the guy who put the water hazard in knew what he was doing too!

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Not a course design gripe, but what I don't like is...

...people who walk around and around endlessly on the green thinking they're reading their putt line....

 

Followed by interminably standing over the ball, followed by .. you guessed it .. a another complete rinse and repeat cycle............

 

(And then the idiots behind you hit up dangerously close to you - thinking it's you who's holding them up.)

 

<.. ok rant over ..>

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Driver...Callaway Paradym (Aldila Ascent PL Blue 40/A)
5W...Callaway Great Big Bertha (MCA Kai'Li Red 50/R)
7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R)

4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3)
5H...Callaway Big Bertha ('19) (Recoil 460 ESX F3)
6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) 
54°, 60°...Cleveland CBX2, CBX 60 (Rotex graphite)
Putter...Ev
nRoll ER5 or MLA Tour XDream (P2 Reflex grip on both)
...all in a Datrek bag on an MGI Zip Navigator electric cart. Ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour.

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Not a course design gripe, but what I don't like is...

...people who walk around and around endlessly on the green thinking they're reading their putt line....

 

Followed by interminably standing over the ball, followed by .. you guessed it .. a another complete rinse and repeat cycle............

 

(And then the idiots behind you hit up dangerously close to you - thinking it's you who's holding them up.)

 

<.. ok rant over ..>

That was you? :)

 

Sent from my VS986 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I'm not a fan of having two forced carries on one hole. It can lead to some ugly numbers with just a bad tee shot or 2nd shot. Or please no....a bad tee shot and a bad approach. Lol

 

And like Dave mentioned a really tough or long hole with no bail out or safe option.

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Let me say that this is a terrific thread.....it's like sitting around the pool at home having a conversation with a few friends. I love the casual attitude we have here at MGS and the ability to "talk" to each other.

 

My hole is at Wentworth GC, a sister course to my club. It has a par 5 on the back nine (#16 I think) and about 180 yards from the hole there is a raised area with a huge Live Oak tree. Even if you hit a great drive, you have to negotiate around this tree. The hole is an "S" shaped fairway. Anyway, the tree almost makes it unable to par. I can't go over the tree so I have to try to hit a low screamer under the tree yet over the mound. If successful, I then have a 140-150 yard shot to the green. Most of the time my ball hits the tree or the mound and yields a terrible lie. Last week I was able to get my 2nd shot past the tree with 140 left to the green. That's the first time in the last 3 or 4 rounds there that I have been able to negotiate the hole....Don't put a Live Oak in the middle of a par 5 without any possible avenues to get around it.

 

 

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Speaking of trees...  my old course has a short par 4 that is drivable, even by me!  The problem is that you have to TRY to drive the green, or your second shot is very difficult.  At the green there are trees in front to the right and left with the driving range OB if you go too far left.  The trees left and right are only about 15 yards between them.  Straight off the tee is where you want to be.  However, if you are short of the green, the only shot is a low pitch/chip to a small green with a grass bank behind and OB behind that.  Fifteen years ago, I had the option to layup off the tee and hit a nice wedge into the green, but now the trees have grown together at their tops and a high shot will hit the trees and drop straight down short of the green.  I used to be able to hit a high lob wedge over the trees onto the green, but the last few years the trees grew too tall for me to make that shot.  I perfected a low wedge shot that would land on the green and check very quickly.   For that reason, I rarely hit high lob shots now, preferring to hit that low shot.  I hated that hole because it gave you no options to play the hole except for going for the green.  It was very difficult for my wife, because she could only get her tee shot to around 100 yards from the green, and then had to thread a shot between the trees.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I absolutely get killed by holes that dogleg left, but the tees are oriented to the right (so if you line up with the line of the tee box, you are aiming at the right rough or worse). Setting up for going to the sweet spot of the dogleg makes it appear that I'm cutting across the tee. Just kills me, #4 and # 13 on my home course (TPC Sawgrass Valley) do this, and they are by far my worst holes. Mentally (visually) I just can't get over it, or accommodate for it. My second best driving hole is also a dogleg left (#15), but the tee box is oriented directly at the dogleg sweet spot. I just go up there with confidence and grip it and rip it.

Nonchalant putts count the same as chalant putts.

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That was you? :)

 

Ha!

Next time please yell "Two!" (like Al Czervik) ..... ;-)

WITB of an "aspiring"  😉 play-ah ...
Driver...Callaway Paradym (Aldila Ascent PL Blue 40/A)
5W...Callaway Great Big Bertha (MCA Kai'Li Red 50/R)
7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R)

4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3)
5H...Callaway Big Bertha ('19) (Recoil 460 ESX F3)
6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) 
54°, 60°...Cleveland CBX2, CBX 60 (Rotex graphite)
Putter...Ev
nRoll ER5 or MLA Tour XDream (P2 Reflex grip on both)
...all in a Datrek bag on an MGI Zip Navigator electric cart. Ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour.

Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023)
Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020)

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Let me say that this is a terrific thread.....it's like sitting around the pool at home having a conversation with a few friends. I love the casual attitude we have here at MGS and the ability to "talk" to each other.

WITB of an "aspiring"  😉 play-ah ...
Driver...Callaway Paradym (Aldila Ascent PL Blue 40/A)
5W...Callaway Great Big Bertha (MCA Kai'Li Red 50/R)
7W...Tour Edge Exotics EXS (Tensei CK Blue 50/R)

4H...Callaway Epic Super Hybrid (Recoil ZT9 F3)
5H...Callaway Big Bertha ('19) (Recoil 460 ESX F3)
6i-GW...Sub 70 699 V2 (Recoil 660 F3) 
54°, 60°...Cleveland CBX2, CBX 60 (Rotex graphite)
Putter...Ev
nRoll ER5 or MLA Tour XDream (P2 Reflex grip on both)
...all in a Datrek bag on an MGI Zip Navigator electric cart. Ball often, not always, MaxFli Tour.

Forum Member tester for the Paradym X driver (2023)
Forum Member tester for the ExPutt Putting Simulator (2020)

followthrough.jpg

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Hard pan bunkers, long bushes in hazards to lose balls in, rocks or pebbles in bunkers, tree roots...

 

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Irons:  :srixon-small: Z565 - 7 thru PW & ZU85 - 5 thru 6 with Recoil ZT9 F4 shafts                                            

Wedges:   :cleveland-small: RTX4 52*, 56*, 60* 

Putter:  Scotty Cameron M2 Newport

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I think holes that bug me the most are short down hill par 3s. For some reason I never play them well.

 

 

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Let me say that this is a terrific thread.....it's like sitting around the pool at home having a conversation with a few friends. I love the casual attitude we have here at MGS and the ability to "talk" to each other.

 

My hole is at Wentworth GC, a sister course to my club. It has a par 5 on the back nine (#16 I think) and about 180 yards from the hole there is a raised area with a huge Live Oak tree. Even if you hit a great drive, you have to negotiate around this tree. The hole is an "S" shaped fairway. Anyway, the tree almost makes it unable to par. I can't go over the tree so I have to try to hit a low screamer under the tree yet over the mound. If successful, I then have a 140-150 yard shot to the green. Most of the time my ball hits the tree or the mound and yields a terrible lie. Last week I was able to get my 2nd shot past the tree with 140 left to the green. That's the first time in the last 3 or 4 rounds there that I have been able to negotiate the hole....Don't put a Live Oak in the middle of a par 5 without any possible avenues to get around it.

 

 

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He's being kind in his description of this hole. The first time I played it I hit a perfect drive left of the tree. After great debate, mainly because all you can see is some sort of hazard left and yards with white stakes right I decided to hit some sort of hybrid that I felt would be short of the hazard and leave me 120 in. I was wrong it reached the hazard but I shoved it just enough to get into the neck leaving me 100. But I was in middle of the so called fairway with all of 10 feet on either side.

 

Its a stupid hole but perhaps not the most ridiculous one on that course. Number 2 is a trip as well. Very long par 4 blind drive down hill with woods on both sides the woods left being jail. Regardless of how far you hit it you are going to be left with down hill lie to an uphill green that is miniscule (on a hole that stretches to 450) and absolutely unreceptive to a golf ball. Hit it left or long or too far right and your ball may still be going to this day giving you another chance to jam one in the clowns no it once it stops. Bad holes on a course that has huge potential of only an architect that knows what he's doing could be allowed to rework it.

 

If course that would take money and I understand not making that type of investment.

 

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Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I think holes that bug me the most are short down hill par 3s. For some reason I never play them well.

 

 

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@bigtazzGOLF on Twitter

I dislike all short par 3s, I think they're just as bad as the super long ones.

Driver:   :callaway-small: Epic 10.5 set to 9.5 w/ Tour AD-DI 44.5

FW:   :cobra-small: F6 baffler set at 16º

Hybrid:  NONE
Irons:   :taylormade-small:  3i 2014 TP CB  4-PW 2011 TP MC w/ TT S400

Wedges:   :nike-small: 52º :nike-small: 56º  :edel-golf-1: 60 º w/ KBS C-Taper XS Soft-stepped

Putter:   :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne 34 inches Gold dot

 

 

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He's being kind in his description of this hole. The first time I played it I hit a perfect drive left of the tree. After great debate, mainly because all you can see is some sort of hazard left and yards with white stakes right I decided to hit some sort of hybrid that I felt would be short of the hazard and leave me 120 in. I was wrong it reached the hazard but I shoved it just enough to get into the neck leaving me 100. But I was in middle of the so called fairway with all of 10 feet on either side.

 

Its a stupid hole but perhaps not the most ridiculous one on that course. Number 2 is a trip as well. Very long par 4 blind drive down hill with woods on both sides the woods left being jail. Regardless of how far you hit it you are going to be left with down hill lie to an uphill green that is miniscule (on a hole that stretches to 450) and absolutely unreceptive to a golf ball. Hit it left or long or too far right and your ball may still be going to this day giving you another chance to jam one in the clowns no it once it stops. Bad holes on a course that has huge potential of only an architect that knows what he's doing could be allowed to rework it.

 

If course that would take money and I understand not making that type of investment.

 

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And it's holes like these that slow play.  In fact most all of the holes that we all have described have the potential to slow down players.  I don't think slow play was a consideration made by architects when they created these wonderful holes.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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