[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Even in his 3/4 swings, left heel is coming up, then slamming back down like he's stomping a bug. Veeeeeewy intwesting. Then next question is, why don't today's players stomp the bug?

[RookieBlue7]

I've read this whole post and watched the videos, and I applaud your determination. I tried something similar to this one time, trying to duplicate another great's swing, and I ended up causing myself more problems than doing good. Of course I've been playing the game a lot longer, and had my own swing that I've developed over the years, and trying to completely change lots of aspects really hurt me. With you being relatively new to the game, this appears to be an easier undertaking for you than someone that's been playing 15-50 years. So again, I applaud your effort, determination and dedication and wish you success in both visually duplicating the swing and shooting better scores.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

RookieBlue7, on 28 December 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

I've read this whole post and watched the videos, and I applaud your determination. I tried something similar to this one time, trying to duplicate another great's swing, and I ended up causing myself more problems than doing good. Of course I've been playing the game a lot longer, and had my own swing that I've developed over the years, and trying to completely change lots of aspects really hurt me. With you being relatively new to the game, this appears to be an easier undertaking for you than someone that's been playing 15-50 years. So again, I applaud your effort, determination and dedication and wish you success in both visually duplicating the swing and shooting better scores.

Thanks Rookie. What swing did you try? And what were the roadblocks for you?

[RookieBlue7]

I tried emulating a few positions Tiger was getting in, having an athletic build at the time and being close to the same height. I also tried getting into a few positions Jack got to as well. I have taken a few things from them, modifying a few things to work for me. It did help but I couldn't get to the exact positions they were getting into and it feel right. In a feel player and always have been. Like you, I don't use a teacher and never have. I have had a friend that's a head pro look at my swing to spot flaws but she corrected nothing, just videoed it and told me what was causing my problem at the time. I fixed it on my own. I've always felt like I can do things for myself. My handicap has been close to scratch before when I had time to work on my swing all the time before being married and having children. Now, I do what I can when I can and play 3-4 times a month and still manage to break 80 nearly every time (of my rounds this year, 3 were above a 79).

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

RookieBlue7, on 28 December 2011 - 11:27 PM, said:

I tried emulating a few positions Tiger was getting in, having an athletic build at the time and being close to the same height. I also tried getting into a few positions Jack got to as well. I have taken a few things from them, modifying a few things to work for me. It did help but I couldn't get to the exact positions they were getting into and it feel right. In a feel player and always have been. Like you, I don't use a teacher and never have. I have had a friend that's a head pro look at my swing to spot flaws but she corrected nothing, just videoed it and told me what was causing my problem at the time. I fixed it on my own. I've always felt like I can do things for myself. My handicap has been close to scratch before when I had time to work on my swing all the time before being married and having children. Now, I do what I can when I can and play 3-4 times a month and still manage to break 80 nearly every time (of my rounds this year, 3 were above a 79).

Yah, I was a big Tiger fan when I first got into the game. At that time, I wasn't into the duplication attempt mindset; never thought much about what was happening in his swing, but I did wear a red shirt on the course a few times lol.

Your scoring sounds good! I hope to be able to do the same someday. You got any videos of your swing?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I think I'm finished with all the general experimenting now. I have a basic idea of what is happening in the swing, and am ready to put together an actual training plan.

Based on my Take14 vid, I thought I was making pretty ok progress, but after re-analyzing Hogan's concentration drills, a lot more is starting to make sense. And when I say "make sense," I'm talking about how I translate what I see vs what I feel that I am doing physically.

I have had my biggest breakthru this week while analyzing the concentration drills from Coleman video, and Fr. Keller video. I've now made major changes in the setup of my feet, leg position, and weight distribution. From the address to the top, real vs concentration are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery close in mechanical nature. This tells me I can now focus on concentration movements, because they closely match the real swing.

I did an analysis a few months ago of the Coleman DTL vid that shows the likeness.


Tonite, I have just finished putting together the same type of analysis of the Fr. Keller video; a comparison of real vs concentration. I tried putting audio on it. Still converting it and trying to load onto youtube.

I will also be doing the same 'real vs concentration' comparison of the Coleman FO view this weekend.

What do these vids tell me? That it should be absolutely no excuse for not mastering the takeaway/upswing/the top. (Boy, I hope I don't eat those words.)

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Based on this "real swing" vs Concentration Drill, there are many likenesses. The following appear to be veeeeeeery close:
Setup
Waggle
Forward Press
Takeaway
Upswing
At the top

I'll be intently focused on the concentration drill for the next few months.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Ben Hogan Coleman Beach "Real Swing" vs "Concentration Drill" comparison FO


Based on this "real swing" vs Concentration Drill, there are many likenesses. The following appear to be veeeeeeery close:

Setup
Waggle
Forward Press
Takeaway
Upswing
At the top

What do these vids tell me? That it should be absolutely no excuse for not mastering these parts of the swing.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I am putting together my training plan. The angle measurements listed here are nothing absolute or scientific. Just me having fun with a bunch of lines and numbers. I am comparing the real swing vs concentration, and noting the range.

Example: The angle of the outer right leg is ~77 degrees in real swing, and ~81 degrees in concentration. Range is 77-81 degrees.

This same type of data wil be gathered for DTL, R, LF, and all other views.

[Phana24JG]

Ben Hogan Swing Project, on 21 December 2011 - 03:44 PM, said:

The reason I may think is: to see if I can do it.

If I succeed, I will say, "Yeeeeeeeeehawwwww!," then play a round of golf from the white tees.

If I fail, I will say, "Ok, well now I know," then play a round of golf from the white tees.

Either way, I will say "I tried," then play another round of golf from the white tees.


And........ummmmmmmmm........doesn't matter much to me, but most of the guys and gals here don't take well to "sales" based posts. Best of luck with your company.

I salute you on your dedication, your originality, and the rather unigue algorithm you have devised to achieve your goal. While I happen to agree with the opinion that this is not the best way to improve your game, it is obvious to anyone who has followed this thread that "success" is not the point. You are having a hell of a lot of fun (along with frustration) pursuing your goal and that is paramount. Best of luck!!!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Phana24JG, on 02 January 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I salute you on your dedication, your originality, and the rather unigue algorithm you have devised to achieve your goal. While I happen to agree with the opinion that this is not the best way to improve your game, it is obvious to anyone who has followed this thread that "success" is not the point. You are having a hell of a lot of fun (along with frustration) pursuing your goal and that is paramount. Best of luck!!!!

Thank you!

I'm having more fun than frustration (most times). The unique algorithm was done by my 8th grade daughter. Great practice for her geometry class.

And...errrrr....ummmmmmmm......."success" is defined by its owner. Success is definitely the point of my project.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I got an interesting comment from someone. What they said is very true......."If you learn to make your [Hogan] backswing right with slow motion (according the camera) it can be something totally different with normal speed".
 
My main roadblock in the beginning was the difficulty involved in analyzing Hogan's real speed swing. I had always heard guys say "you need to focus on the concentration drill." Well, I didn't trust that he was doing anything close to the concentration that he's doing in the real speed swing. Probably because I've heard so many people say that Hogan had a secret, and he took it with him to the grave. So I deduced that if there was a big secret, then why would he show it all across the world at ProAms and clinics. I was caught up in the "secret" belief. I was becoming programmed by the thoughts/beliefs of the golfing community. And when top 100 teachers spoke of this same "secret" I figured it was the gospel.

Then, just for fun, I decided to put the slow-mo of the real swing, vs concentration, side-by-side; and compare dynamic movement as well as angular position. From the waggle to the top, I was shocked to see that they are just about the same movement, dynamic, position, etc. Nothing secret when I saw them side-by-side broken down. I am now transitioning from experimentation to major focus on the concentration drill.
 
I do agree that doing it in super-slow snail-paced fashion is much different than at rattlenake-strike pace.
I'll just start working at .0000000001 mph and ease it up throughout the years.
 
Current "concentration drill" focus will only be the waggle and setup. This could easily take a year, but who knows, I could get lucky and have a learning spike.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I made a fun observation yesterday. While I was on my laptop looking at grainy Hogan footage, my daughters set up the Wii game. They put in "Just Dance." Kim (my wife) was on the sofa beside me folding clothes. I glanced up at the TV and noticed the CG person dancing. I then glanced at my 4th grade daughter and noticed she was doing something similar to the CG. Hmmmmmm! Then I began my questions...

Me: 4th grade daughter, what are you doing?

4th: I'm dancing!

Me: Wow..that's cool. You're dancing just like the person on the screen. Looks like fun. I wanna try it too.

4th: Daaaaaaaaaaad, you're too old!

Me: Nooooooooo, lol, not too old. Didn't you see me at the New Year's party bustin a groove?

4th: But this isn't the same. You can't just do what you want to do. You have to keep up with the person on the TV and move just like they do, or you lose points.

Me: Well, how did you learn to move just like they do?

4th: I just looked at it over [our neighbor's] house and started doing it.

Me: Soooooooo, you didn't take a class at school on it?

4th: LOLOL! Noooooooooooooooo.

Me: Ummmmmmm, you didn't read a book about it to learn how to do it?

4th: LOLOL! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! Noooooooooo. You're messing me up! I'm losing points now!

Kim: Ummmm, I see what you're doing.....can you just leave them alone and let them play their game??

4th: Mahhhhhhhhhm, He's trying to make me lose!

Me: Nooo, I'm not trying to make you lose. I just want to know who showed you how to do that, so I can get them to show me.

4th: (She hits pause now, and turns to me) I already told you, you just have to look at what the person is doing and do just like it. It's EASY!!!!!! (She restarts the game)

Me: Yep, it looks easy to me. Wow...look at that...you're doing your feet and arms just like they are. You're good at this. Sooo, how long have you been doing that song? Is it your first time doing that one?

4th: (She takes a deep breath and kinda slams her arms down to her side, then pauses the game again) NooooooooooOOO. (She turns to Kim) Mom...can you tell Dad to stop. He's making me lose.

Kim: (She stares at me, shaking her head, and mumbles under her breath) Ummph, ummph, ummph....will it ever end. (By this time, I'm trying to keep a straight face and not laugh, cause the 4th grader has no idea what I'm doing).

She finally finishes the game (and yep she lost), so I wait for her to play the same song a few times to get the score she is after. Then I ask her a few final questions.

Me: Well, looks like you've gotten that one figured out. You're getting better each time you play it.

4th: Yahh, it's one of my favorite songs!

Me: So, you never told me how long you had been playing that song.

4th: Me and [the neighbor] have been playing it since Christmas day.

Me: Well, why don't you stop playing that one, and pick a song you have never ever heard of before. See what your score is. You should be real good at it because you were really good with that favorite song you just did.

4th: Noooooooooooooooooooooooo, LOLOL, that doesn't make any sense. I won't have a good score cause I don't know what the moves are. I've never seen it.

Me: Oh, ok. So that means you will never know how to do that one then. Oh well. I thought you were good at this. (Then I get up and start walking away).

4th: (Now she's kinda huffing and puffing cause she can't understand how I don't get it.) Daaaaaaaaaad, I just have to play it for a while and I will be good at that one too!

Me: Ohhhh. Ok. I thought that 9 year olds couldn't learn stuff like that. I thought they had to be told how to do it by their teacher.

4th: Nope. I don't HAVE to have my teacher. I can learn anything I want to!

Me: (I raise both my arms like I've crossed the finish line at a marathon race and yell) YES!!!!!!

Kim: (Still shakin her head) Lol, you need help lol.

8th: (Then my 8th grade daughter who has been listening to the whole conversation jumps in) Dad, I know what you were doing, you weren't fooling me. You were trying to say that what 4th grade is doing is something like your Hogan Project. She was learning what she sees the people doing on the game.

Me: Lol, Ummmmmmmm, I have no idea what you are talking about. Now how would you come up with something like that lol. I was just watching you guys play the game.

8th grader says "yeah...right" and leaves. Now it's just me and Kim sitting there.

Me: I gotta put this on the forum!

Kim: Ummmm. make sure you don't say anything crazy about me cause I am not a part of your little Hogan stuff..... and don't use my name.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Lol, I just realized that I am long-winded and type too much. Some of my posts are a whole stinkin page long!

I need to invest all this typing time into club moving time!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I am commonly asked..."which Hogan are you looking at to copy? Before he found out the secret? After the secret, after the crash, after he stopped playing competitively?"

I'm analyzing and experimenting with all of them, but so far, based on my flexibility and muscular boob, I may be working towards these (I have no idea what year they are, and if they are pre or post secret):







I don't think my swolen upper body will allow me to do this:



Basically, I think I can physically get close to however he was swinging in his 40, 50, and 60 year-old range. But I'm using something from all the different eras to get an understanding.