NEWS FLASH - Titleist/FootJoy To Be Sold Or Spun Off!

[GolfSpy Dave]

OTR Camerons are made in the US. The name of the facility escapes me now, but this has been verified.

It sounded like it with your ProPlat post above. Plus that model is older, so the overseas production has gone on for a while.

[GolfSpy_X]

You thinking of Western CNC /Danny Ashcraft?:

 

http://westerncnc.com/company/index.html

 

 

 

OTR Camerons are made in the US. The name of the facility escapes me now, but this has been verified.

[putterplating]

The Pro Platinum and the all over the place metal that was used in the product. They were produced overseas. They either skimped on the metal knowing the product would be plated and "hidden" or because the metal looked bad they plated it. The story varies depending upon who you talk to.

 

Either way it was horrible metal, I have seen a stripped model break moving them 2-3 degrees for lie. I have seen some that looked fine without the plating and seen some that were horrible. It could be because of skim-milling a cast head, never really paid attention.

 

 

I have never heard this about the PP line. I have worked on hundreds of PP putters. The only time I have seen problems is when the putter has been heavily rusted.

 

PP is a nickel plating and that plating would not cover or fill in imperfections in the metal. It is too thin of a layer. The polishing done on the face & sole would actually make imperfections in the metal look worse.

 

Nickel is also not going to strengthen the steel. So, raw or plated, the risk is the same when making adjustments to loft or lie.

[Moecat]

I've also heard - but not verified - that the hosels are still being spin welded to the heads ... in other words, they are not one-piece milled.

 

EDIT: spin welded, not spin milled

[GolfSpy_X]

It is amazing when spin welding first came out it was looked at as incredible craftsmanship. Which heads do they say he makes that are spin welded Moe?

 

I've also heard - but not verified - that the hosels are still being spin welded to the heads ... in other words, they are not one-piece milled.

 

EDIT: spin welded, not spin milled

[Moecat]

It is amazing when spin welding first came out it was looked at as incredible craftsmanship. Which heads do they say he makes that are spin welded Moe?

 

Anything and everything that he markets as "milled in the USA" - including the new California Classics - is supposedly spin welded and not one-piece milled.

 

I don't know if he does things differently for the Tour 009, GSS, SSS, etc. models. For the money one has to shell out for those, one would hope those are one-piece milled.

[Matt Saternus]

I took a quick look at the fortune brands website. The names that jump out at me are Moen, MasterLock, Jim Beam, Suaza, Maker's Mark, and El Tesoro. They apparently are also responsible for some sort of spirit called "Cockburn's", which I think I'm just fine knowing nothing about.

 

This actually made me laugh out loud.

 

It would be interesting to see how Nike would proceed if they picked up Scotty. They have put a lot of effort (and money, I assume) into the Method putters and have gotten results (2 major wins). I don't know what the sales are like, but they were getting lots of buzz before they came out and seem to get pretty good reviews from people now. Would they scrap the Method and go completely to Scotty Cameron for Nike? Would that undermine their credibility, because that would be like admitting that their product (Method) was inferior all along? Just something to think about.

[GolfSpy Dave]

This actually made me laugh out loud.

 

It would be interesting to see how Nike would proceed if they picked up Scotty. They have put a lot of effort (and money, I assume) into the Method putters and have gotten results (2 major wins). I don't know what the sales are like, but they were getting lots of buzz before they came out and seem to get pretty good reviews from people now. Would they scrap the Method and go completely to Scotty Cameron for Nike? Would that undermine their credibility, because that would be like admitting that their product (Method) was inferior all along? Just something to think about.

The Method is a good putter IMHO, but it's not Cameron branded. I would envision something like at TM with the KM line and the other TM putters. Non-Camerons would be dropped over time if sales didn't hold up.

[Moecat]

It is amazing when spin welding first came out it was looked at as incredible craftsmanship.

 

Just to expound on spin welding a little bit: it's amounts to being a cost saving measure. Typically, 3 putter heads - without the neck/hosel - can be CNC-milled from a billet of steel. To make one-piece CNC-milled putters, only two at a time can be made this way. This means there is more waste, or if you wish to look at it another way, more cost associated with recycling unused material. Therefore, in order to be able to sell one high-end retail putter at $300, the head and neck have to be made separately and then spin welded together.

[jamo]

The Method is a good putter IMHO, but it's not Cameron branded. I would envision something like at TM with the KM line and the other TM putters. Non-Camerons would be dropped over time if sales didn't hold up.

 

This would be my guess also.

[Matt Saternus]

The Method is a good putter IMHO, but it's not Cameron branded. I would envision something like at TM with the KM line and the other TM putters. Non-Camerons would be dropped over time if sales didn't hold up.

 

That would make sense.

 

Although, slightly tangential, I've never seen a Kia Ma putter in person. Seems like stores just don't keep them in inventory, at least not around me.

[Addicted2Golf]

That would make sense.

 

Although, slightly tangential, I've never seen a Kia Ma putter in person. Seems like stores just don't keep them in inventory, at least not around me.

 

Nope. Never seen one of those either.

 

BTW, I found it interesting that Golf Galaxy had a Nike Method under lock and key like they do the Cameron's. I didn't know Nike had reached such lofty heights that I have to ask/beg a sales person to let me demo one. Outstanding.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

Nope. Never seen one of those either.

 

BTW, I found it interesting that Golf Galaxy had a Nike Method under lock and key like they do the Cameron's. I didn't know Nike had reached such lofty heights that I have to ask/beg a sales person to let me demo one. Outstanding.

Not allowed to touch a method Putter???? thats funny... It's not that good IMO. Bur branding being what it is...

[GolfSpy Dave]

Nope. Never seen one of those either.

 

BTW, I found it interesting that Golf Galaxy had a Nike Method under lock and key like they do the Cameron's. I didn't know Nike had reached such lofty heights that I have to ask/beg a sales person to let me demo one. Outstanding.

GG and another smaller shop have them under lock and key. Guys ran out the door with 4 camerons at the smaller shop.

Haggin Oaks has all of them out. I am very lucky to have this store. Nothing locked up, all for demo. Big indoor green too.

 

Sorry about feeding the tangent.

[Matt Saternus]

Nope. Never seen one of those either.

 

BTW, I found it interesting that Golf Galaxy had a Nike Method under lock and key like they do the Cameron's. I didn't know Nike had reached such lofty heights that I have to ask/beg a sales person to let me demo one. Outstanding.

 

I imagine it's an issue of "anything over $___ goes in the case" and I think the Methods are over $200. If I ran a golf store, one of two policies would be in effect:

 

1) All putters are locked up. You can demo anything you want, but you have to ask.

 

2) No one under 16 years of age is allowed to touch ANYTHING.

 

Parents at my old store saw the putting green as a babysitting mechanism and that led to innumerable dinged up "new" putters. Not cool.

[HoosierGolfer]

I see this as nothing more than the rumor mill running with a story. I would be very surprised if Titleist and Scotty ever split. This is not the first time this rumor has been passed around. The Cobra sale is a fact it seems but I see nothing that would make me think there is more to this story. Titleist is for sure really just a ball company that happens to also sell really nice clubs and putters.

[GolfSpy_X]

Yeah I just throw rumors out there without doing any checking...lol. Come on now Hoosier...anyone can do that.

 

And there have been rumors about it before because Titleist has considered doing this a few times. So the rumors were true. Although this time it is not there doing in regards to wanting to be on there own this time their boss doesn't want them around anymore.

 

I see this as nothing more than the rumor mill running with a story. I would be very surprised if Titleist and Scotty ever split. This is not the first time this rumor has been passed around. The Cobra sale is a fact it seems but I see nothing that would make me think there is more to this story. Titleist is for sure really just a ball company that happens to also sell really nice clubs and putters.

[nvgolfdude]

For a huge corporation like Fortune Brands, it is all about driving growth and shareholder value. Although Titleist is a great company, they are in a non-growth industry. Titleist has done a tremendous job staying profitable and keeping market share, but in the big picture there is not much room for growth since golf is declining, not growing these days. That is why Titleist would be better off as a stand alone business rather than part of a conglomeration. Fortune Brands also owns Jim Bean, Moen, etc... much larger industries than golf.

 

As I was reading through this thread and drafting my own thoughts I came accross this post, which IMO best explains what is taking place, if it is taking place... So I thought I'd tag on my own observations:

 

Fortune Brands is a congolmerate invested in businesses/industries that are taking a beating, and that will continue to suffer for the forseeable future (No Virginia, it isn't going to get much better anytime soon.). Take a look at their holdings:

 

Golf: Acushnet Company (Fortune sold off the Acushnet Company's Acushnet Rubber division in 1985) which includes Titleist, FootJoy, Pinnacle Golf, Scotty Cameron Putters (notice that SCP is listed seperately from Titleist...)

 

Home & Hardware: Masterbrand Cabinets, Aristokraft Cabinets, Cabinets by Diamond, Omega Cabinetry, Home Crest Cabinets, Schrock Cabinetry, Kitchen Craft Cabinetry, Decora, Capital Cabinets, Moen, Fypon, Therma-Tru Doors, Simonton Windows, Master Lock, American Lock, Hy-Lite Products, Inc., and Vista Windows. Except for banking, is there an industry that is in worse shape than construction?

 

Spirits/Liquor: Jim Beam, Maker's Mark, Booker's, Baker's, Knob Creek, Basil Hayden's, Canadian Club, Teacher's, Whisky DYC, Windsor Canadian, Lord Calvert, Tangle Ridge, Alberta Springs, Kessler, Calvert Extra, Furst Bismarck, Laphroaig, Ardmore, Sauza Tequila, Hornitos Tequila, El Tesoro de Don Felipe, Courvoisier, Salignac, VOX, Wolfschmidt, Kamchatka, Gilbey's, Effen, Cruzan Rum, Ronrico, and more...

 

Fortune does not care about Titleist or SC except from the perspective of those companies ability to contribute to the the top and bottom lines of Fortune Brands. Golf, as we know it, is in decline. Look around at how many golf courses are closing. Both the game and the business of golf have been further damaged by the personal trevails of the sport's most recognizable figure. Golf and Tiger are on the decline, and it will be a while before they recover. Does anyone dispute this?

 

The business of golf equipment will likely rebound as the global economy rebounds; however, it is not projected to be a growth industry in its current markets (USA, Europe, Australia, Japan, Korea). China is the one place where the industry holds out hope. If 10% of the Chineese population take up golf in over the next 10-15 years, that will be a tremendous boost to the equipment industry (100+ million new golfes). However, it's not likely that those golfers will be seeking out $300 putters and $500 drivers.

 

If Fortune Brands is selling now, it is because they are looking to get what they can for the golf businesses that they own. In a year or two, those businesses will be worth less than they are today, as sales and profits continue to shrink.

 

As for SC going on his own, nothing is impossible, but it seems unlikely if the rumors about his health have any merit (heart issues). The SC brand and business model need capital, and a lot of it, to continue as they currently operate. I would venture to say the SCP needs Titleist more than Titleist needs SC. One thing SCP does not require is the ability to mill his own putters. SCP does not mill them now (K-Tec).

 

To me, here is the interesting question. What will SC's tour presence be without the financial backing of Fortune Brands/Acushnet/Titleist? Where will the $$$ come from to pay players to game a Cameron?

[Matt Saternus]

As I was reading through this thread and drafting my own thoughts I came accross this post, which IMO best explains what is taking place, if it is taking place... So I thought I'd tag on my own observations:

 

Fortune Brands is a congolmerate invested in businesses/industries that are taking a beating, and that will continue to suffer for the forseeable future (No Virginia, it isn't going to get much better anytime soon.). Take a look at their holdings:

 

Golf: Acushnet Company (Fortune sold off the Acushnet Company's Acushnet Rubber division in 1985) which includes Titleist, FootJoy, Pinnacle Golf, Scotty Cameron Putters (notice that SCP is listed seperately from Titleist...)

 

Home & Hardware: Masterbrand Cabinets, Aristokraft Cabinets, Cabinets by Diamond, Omega Cabinetry, Home Crest Cabinets, Schrock Cabinetry, Kitchen Craft Cabinetry, Decora, Capital Cabinets, Moen, Fypon, Therma-Tru Doors, Simonton Windows, Master Lock, American Lock, Hy-Lite Products, Inc., and Vista Windows. Except for banking, is there an industry that is in worse shape than construction?

 

Spirits/Liquor: Jim Beam, Maker's Mark, Booker's, Baker's, Knob Creek, Basil Hayden's, Canadian Club, Teacher's, Whisky DYC, Windsor Canadian, Lord Calvert, Tangle Ridge, Alberta Springs, Kessler, Calvert Extra, Furst Bismarck, Laphroaig, Ardmore, Sauza Tequila, Hornitos Tequila, El Tesoro de Don Felipe, Courvoisier, Salignac, VOX, Wolfschmidt, Kamchatka, Gilbey's, Effen, Cruzan Rum, Ronrico, and more...

 

Fortune does not care about Titleist or SC except from the perspective of those companies ability to contribute to the the top and bottom lines of Fortune Brands. Golf, as we know it, is in decline. Look around at how many golf courses are closing. Both the game and the business of golf have been further damaged by the personal trevails of the sport's most recognizable. Golf and Tiger are on the decline, and it will be a while before they recover. Does anyone dispute this?

 

The business of golf equipment will likely rebound as the global economy rebounds; however, it is not projected to be a growth industry in its current markets (USA, Europe, Australia, Japan, Korea). China is the one place where the industry holds out hope. If 10% of the Chineese population take up golf in over the next 10-15 years, that will be a tremendous boost to the equipment industry (100+ million new golfes). However, it's not likely that those golfers will be seeking out $300 putters and $500 drivers.

 

If Fortune Brands is selling now, it is because they are looking to get what they can for the golf businesses that they own. In a year or two, those businesses will be worth less than they are today, as sales and profits continue to shrink.

 

As for SC going on his own, nothing is impossible, but it seems unlikely if the rumors about his health have any merit (heart issues). The SC brand and business model need capital, and a lot of it, to continue as they currently operate. I would venture to say the SCP needs Titleist more than Titleist needs SC. One thing SCP does not require is the ability to mill his own putters. SCP does not mill them now (K-Tec).

 

To me, here is the interesting question. What will SC's tour presence be without the financial backing of Fortune Brands/Acushnet/Titleist? Where will the $$ come from to pay players to game a Cameron?

 

Good post, Dave, and a very interesting question at the end. If there wasn't any money involved in playing a Scotty, I'd be inclined to say tour usage would probably drop off by quite a bit in the short term as the players who need/want the payday move to other things. I think a good number of players who are very happy/successful with their Camerons will keep them, but that number would slowly drop off as those players that stayed loyal leave the tour and are replaced by players without such loyalties, or those players are slowly weened off of Scottys and onto something that their OEM wants them to play. What are your thoughts, Dave?

[GolfSpy_X]

Honestly the way the tour works nowadays...money talks. Many players have lawyers following them...almost making it impossible for smaller names to get in players bags. If Scotty and Titleist split up and he does not get picked up by Adidas or Nike and he is on his own the tour usage will shrink fairly quickly. All those players bagging a SC will get pounced on by other companies the next day.

 

 

Good post, Dave, and a very interesting question at the end. If there wasn't any money involved in playing a Scotty, I'd be inclined to say tour usage would probably drop off by quite a bit in the short term as the players who need/want the payday move to other things. I think a good number of players who are very happy/successful with their Camerons will keep them, but that number would slowly drop off as those players that stayed loyal leave the tour and are replaced by players without such loyalties, or those players are slowly weened off of Scottys and onto something that their OEM wants them to play. What are your thoughts, Dave?

[Matt Saternus]

Honestly the way the tour works nowadays...money talks. Many players have lawyers following them...almost making it impossible for smaller names to get in players bags. If Scotty and Titleist split up and he does not get picked up by Adidas or Nike and he is on his own the tour usage will shrink fairly quickly. All those players bagging a SC will get pounced on by other companies the next day.

 

 

 

 

So loyalty is just until the next paycheck? You don't think many of the guys would have a problem switching putters quickly? It might be that they're already switching putter a lot, I don't know, which is why I ask.

[TWShoot67]

All I can think in the back of my head is what if way back when Scotty first was aligned with Titleist if that happened to be Bettinardi. Do you think Betty would have been KING instead of Scotty. With all the wars between the two that would be something to think about..... I think Scotty owes much more to Titleist then the other way around. That's how Scotty got to where he is. back then Titleist was thought of as #1 on PGA tour. I just in shock that all these things keep happening. This economy has really made people re asses their positions, whether it be downsizing or whatever you want to call it.

[GolfSpy_X]

Many of the guys on tour are not playing the clubs they really want to...just ask them. They might not say it out in the open which would risk their sponsorship. But in talking to many of them they play what the OEM's want them to many of times. Just ask the Solus wedge rep. He will give you great insight into this world. Many guys want to play their wedge but can't.

 

If the money is right the guys will switch. A few guys will stick with him for loyalty reasons but they will either be guys that dont get offered other equipment contracts for the putter that are valuable enough or guys that got FU money and stay loyal. But the 95% in between will be tied up by the equipment contract they are under.

 

There are lots of great putters out there and the only reason you don;t see many of them is because of the above statement.

 

 

 

So loyalty is just until the next paycheck? You don't think many of the guys would have a problem switching putters quickly? It might be that they're already switching putter a lot, I don't know, which is why I ask.

[Matt Saternus]

Many of the guys on tour are not playing the clubs they really want to...just ask them. They might not say it out in the open which would risk their sponsorship. But in talking to many of them they play what the OEM's want them to many of times. Just ask the Solus wedge rep. He will give you great insight into this world. Many guys want to play their wedge but can't.

 

If the money is right the guys will switch. A few guys will stick with him for loyalty reasons but they will either be guys that dont get offered other equipment contracts for the putter that are valuable enough or guys that got FU money and stay loyal. But the 95% in between will be tied up by the equipment contract they are under.

 

There are lots of great putters out there and the only reason you don;t see many of them is because of the above statement.

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting stuff. Seems like this really undermines the whole idea of players endorsing a club: "Play this club because I do. I wouldn't if I didn't have to, but...."

[Addicted2Golf]

This could be very damaging to the brand if Titliest does sell and SCP doesn't get picked up by one of the other large OEM's. If his stuff doesn't get played on tour to the degree it does now then it will be interesting to see how that impacts the collector market for Tour Only or so called "Circle T" product.

[Matt Saternus]

This could be very damaging to the brand if Titliest does sell and SCP doesn't get picked up by one of the other large OEM's. If his stuff doesn't get played on tour to the degree it does now then it will be interesting to see how that impacts the collector market for Tour Only or so called "Circle T" product.

 

I imagine it would kill the OTR market much more than the high end collector's market. I think the people who are deeply involved in the Cameron world will probably stay that way even without the tour presence, but what average golfer is going to drop $300 on a putter that nobody on tour uses?

 

Just my thoughts, of course.

[Addicted2Golf]

I imagine it would kill the OTR market much more than the high end collector's market. I think the people who are deeply involved in the Cameron world will probably stay that way even without the tour presence, but what average golfer is going to drop $300 on a putter that nobody on tour uses?

 

Just my thoughts, of course.

 

Yeah, not sure. I guess we will need to wait to see if an actual sale occurs. I do like the idea that smaller putter companies might be able to find opportunity if this goes down. Scotty has had a strangle hold on that category on tour for a long time.

[Matt Saternus]

Yeah, not sure. I guess we will need to wait to see if an actual sale occurs. I do like the idea that smaller putter companies might be able to find opportunity if this goes down. Scotty has had a strangle hold on that category on tour for a long time.

 

It would be nice to see more small companies get a shot, but if you believe what MGS said (and I have no reason to doubt it), all the players that are now under Scotty's flag will be gobbled up by another major $ player the second Scotty is gone.

[GolfSpy Dave]

Are there really that many guys only playing cameron for the payday from titleist? I don't think that the high end collection market would fall. Betti has high end sales too w/o the tour presence of cameron.

What if Adams picked up cameron...

[nvgolfdude]

Good post, Dave, and a very interesting question at the end. If there wasn't any money involved in playing a Scotty, I'd be inclined to say tour usage would probably drop off by quite a bit in the short term as the players who need/want the payday move to other things. I think a good number of players who are very happy/successful with their Camerons will keep them, but that number would slowly drop off as those players that stayed loyal leave the tour and are replaced by players without such loyalties, or those players are slowly weened off of Scottys and onto something that their OEM wants them to play. What are your thoughts, Dave?

 

Matt, with SCP it is hard to say. I know for a long time there was a perception that tour players rolled an SCP because they liked it, and that there was no payola. Over time that myth has been dispelled. Acushnet/Titleist/SCP have done a great job of keeping the payout figures sheltered, but guys are getting paid, which is fine. It's a business, and why shouldn't they?

 

The point of my long-winded post (and here comes another one) was that the golf industry is changing, and not so much the fate of Titleist and SCP. Late last summer, I posted my opinions in another forum on what we were going to see happen with the professional tours. I don't know anything more than anyone else. I am drawing on my 25+ years as a financial professional in multiple industries and companies. To me, it's simple business and financial dynamics at work. As the global economy continues to contract, and as priorities shift, and as corporate money becomes harder to come by (don't believe it, they did not sell out the Super Bowl advertising this year) I believe that we will see a Global Elite Tour. The very best players will play in the most lucrative and prestigious events globally (look at the players already playing in Dubai, Singapore, and South Africa). Look at the events that have been lost to the PGA Tour, LPGA, and Champions Tour in 2010. Nothing stays the same. Things are always evolving/changing, and despite Mr. Finchem's assertions to the contrary, his tour has a very difficult road ahead. Besides, a Global Tour of the best players and events would be really good for the game. Think of what the Open Championship brings to Europe each year. Now, what if they had 2 or 3 more events that drew comparable fields and media coverage. Take that same idea and apply it in Singapore, Korea, Japan, Australia, South Africa, and yes, one day China. A smarter, more visionary leader than Mr. Finchem would be embracing this, and even leading the charge. Instead, I forsee this change being driven by the elite players and the major manufacturers. How many times will Mickelson (and quite a few others) have to play in Singapore before TF wakes up to what is happening?

 

Of course, I could be full of crap too. My wife often thinks that I am...