[Stuart81]

Over e=here in England I have heard a number of people mention that before Woods' up turn in form Nike were ready to offload there prized asset in order to attempt to prize Rory McIlroy & Ryo Ishikawa to join. Also what was interesting was that Callaway were ready to step in for Woods?

Anyone heard anything thing like that ?

I personally could not see it happening certainly not now the season has started but it would be quite a deal

[GolfSpy T]

Can't say we've heard anything definitive, but I can't say I'd be shocked to see Nike let Tiger go.

Here's the reality: Tiger only helps move product when he's winning...and winning a lot. He's certainly not helping Nike out with his jovial personality. At this point the Tiger decision (if you want to call it that) will ultimately be a calculated gamble. If the belief is that he's finally about to turn the corner again and start running off major victories then you stick with him. However, if you believe as I do that his best days are behind him, and all this Sean Foley Zen crap is just a weak cover-up for what is otherwise a miserable personality, then the time has come to cut the proverbial bait.

Generally speaking I think Nike needs to get younger as a brand. They've conceded the youth movement to Cobra-PUMA, and their most bankable star isn't bankable anymore, and yeah...probably is a better fit for Titleist (though Callaway would certainly go after him). Rory would make them younger.

Nike has some great personalities on its roster. Stewart Cink is a great personality, as is Johnny Vegas...problem is those guys just don't win a whole lot (or even finish near the top), and again...that's what sells clubs.

With Rickie locked up for the long haul, Rory is absolutely the guy I'd try and sign...he's young, infinitely talented, and while perhaps not overly bubbly he's genuine and personable (a bit like Phil in that respect), and ultimately he has the tools to help a golf company move product. Ryo would give them a talented golfer who hits a specific demographic (Asian).

All of this makes a real case for the TaylorMade model. While there would no doubt be an argument over who their most bankable star is (Dustin, Sergio, even Natalie or Paula), at the end of the day the face doesn't matter. They manage to put their clubs, and most importantly their woods (Drivers are the most visible and identifiable) on TV. Even when their guys don't win, the get more exposure than anyone...and that DEFINITELY sells clubs.

[Stuart81]

Have to agree with the Nike assessment, for me Nike have always focused on Woods and never (or don't have the budget) to look beyond Tiger. From a European perspective the guys we see with Nike products are Simon Dyson Richard Finch week in week out but on a global scale representing the Euro Tour you have Paul Casey Charl Schwartzel. The guys mentioned just don't make you want to rush out to buy Nike products.

I have to say they missed a trick with Fowler but I think they could get Rory away from Titleist especially if he is their number 1 star and gets the same treatment Tiger has.

[JBones]

Stuart81, on 08 February 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I have to say they missed a trick with Fowler but I think they could get Rory away from Titleist especially if he is their number 1 star and gets the same treatment Tiger has.

Nobody will ever get the same treatment as Tiger. There will never be another Tiger, just like there will never be another Micheal Jordan. As talented as these young guys are, nobody will bring in as much as Tiger, except for maybe Ricky Fowler. Fowler appeals with his style, not his game, he is going to bring in more clothing sales than club sales. Nike has pretty much ran on Micheal Jordan and Tiger Woods for the past 25 years. What those guys have done for that company will be unmatched by anybody or any company EVER.

[RookieBlue7]

Nike will never let Tiger leave. They also were never interested in Rory. He's not the type of player that fits their brand. Calloway also doesn't have the money to sign Tiger.

Every year there's a Tiger rumor that's just that, a rumor. As a brand, if Tiger leaves before retiring, Nike's golf division is done. There's not another player on the planet that sells as much equipment as he does.

[Stuart81]

Can't believe you think that Rory doesn't fit the player type Nike would be after, they would love to have him, I am also surprised by how much hype there is over Rickie Fowler on these threads. I am a big Fowler fan and want to see him at the top with the likes of McIlroy, Noh, Ishikawa etc but inmo Rory is on another level to the other guys out there.

Not quite the pin up image but Rory has the game to break records, although I don't think he will maybe more Majors than any other European player

[GolfSpy T]

RookieBlue7, on 08 February 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Nike will never let Tiger leave. They also were never interested in Rory. He's not the type of player that fits their brand. Calloway also doesn't have the money to sign Tiger.

Every year there's a Tiger rumor that's just that, a rumor. As a brand, if Tiger leaves before retiring, Nike's golf division is done. There's not another player on the planet that sells as much equipment as he does.

What I'd argue is that once upon a time there wasn't a player who sold more equipment than Tiger. While it may still be true today, on volume, I'm fairly certain he doesn't move nearly the product he used to. The Tiger effect on equipment sales is over. If he starts winning again, that will change, but right now, I'd rather have Fowler.

What was unique about Tiger is that ge got by on winning alone. When you look at Michael Jordan, and other sports icons who have been big gets from an advertising perspective, they backed up their games with winning personalities.

Part of a larger discussion is that the biggest product movers will always be NBA and PGA pros. The other team sports have too many guys on the field at a time for one guy to kill it at the level that a golfer or basketball player can. The one possible exception that comes to mind is David Beckham. While his footprint is small here, globally he dwarfs everyone.

Whether or not Rory fits the Nike brand...hard to say. They were Tiger for so long, I'm not sure if they know what their image is right now. They do need fresh blood, I think, and based who is on the scene right now...if I had to pin the hopes of my company on a single face, I'd take my shot with Rory.

This discussion also illustrates why TaylorMade is so successful at Tour-based marketing. Rather than have a single face of the brand, they spread themselves out quite a bit. They've done this across all tours to such a degree that it's a rarity for anything to be won without a TM club in the bag...and when you include Champions and LPGA tours, they hit at nearly a 100% rate.


Divide and Conquer as they say.

[GolfSpy T]

Stuart81, on 10 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Can't believe you think that Rory doesn't fit the player type Nike would be after, they would love to have him, I am also surprised by how much hype there is over Rickie Fowler on these threads. I am a big Fowler fan and want to see him at the top with the likes of McIlroy, Noh, Ishikawa etc but inmo Rory is on another level to the other guys out there.

Not quite the pin up image but Rory has the game to break records, although I don't think he will maybe more Majors than any other European player

I don't think may would argue that Rory isn't the more talented player, but golf companies want to sell product (and tour players are still at the top of the pyramid of influence). Rory will win more tournaments over his career, and he may very well prove to be the most dominant of the new generation of golfers, but he simply doesn't move the needle like Rickie Fowler can.

PUMA (and now Cobra) has created an entire culture around Rickie. While not everyone buys into the orange (and other bright PUMA colors), there is a huge contingent of golfers on board, and the culture itself is growing. Toss in that Rickie has the talent to win any tournament he's in...well...if he can win a few majors (or TPC-type events), Cobra is going to win big because of it.

[RookieBlue7]

Stuart81, on 10 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Can't believe you think that Rory doesn't fit the player type Nike would be after, they would love to have him, I am also surprised by how much hype there is over Rickie Fowler on these threads. I am a big Fowler fan and want to see him at the top with the likes of McIlroy, Noh, Ishikawa etc but inmo Rory is on another level to the other guys out there.

Not quite the pin up image but Rory has the game to break records, although I don't think he will maybe more Majors than any other European player

Why doesn't Rory fit their mold? Because he's a small market player in America. He also doesn't show his face outside of the golf course, and the only time he's really publicized is when he's near the top at big tourneys, or when he's running his mouth about something. Tiger, while he'll talk smack, backs it up. He's also a global icon from a marketing perspective. And, I'd be willing to bet that he still moves the needle as far as sales go nearly 3:1 over anyone. Look at the Method alone. It was selling, but not that well. He puts one in play at the British Open and the stores couldn't keep them on the shelves. He switches to the 003 headshape, same thing. And this was when he was doing nothing virtually last season. Why do you think manufacturers put Diamana shafts (even though they were made for variations) in their clubs? Because that's what he played. Nike put out a limited edition set of irons that were identical to Tiger's specs, and they sold like hotcakes, who cares if the vast majority of players buying them couldn't hit them? Rory doesn't have that impact globally. Rickie Fowler is probably the only one out there today that comes close. But as it stands, Nike is hitching their horse to their prized stallion and going for the ride until Tiger decides he's done with them (which will be never). Look at Michael Jordan. He's been out of basketball how long? And he still has the #1 selling shoe.

[GolfSpy T]

RookieBlue7, on 10 February 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Why doesn't Rory fit their mold? Because he's a small market player in America. He also doesn't show his face outside of the golf course, and the only time he's really publicized is when he's near the top at big tourneys, or when he's running his mouth about something. Tiger, while he'll talk smack, backs it up. He's also a global icon from a marketing perspective. And, I'd be willing to bet that he still moves the needle as far as sales go nearly 3:1 over anyone. Look at the Method alone. It was selling, but not that well. He puts one in play at the British Open and the stores couldn't keep them on the shelves. He switches to the 003 headshape, same thing. And this was when he was doing nothing virtually last season. Why do you think manufacturers put Diamana shafts (even though they were made for variations) in their clubs? Because that's what he played. Nike put out a limited edition set of irons that were identical to Tiger's specs, and they sold like hotcakes, who cares if the vast majority of players buying them couldn't hit them? Rory doesn't have that impact globally. Rickie Fowler is probably the only one out there today that comes close. But as it stands, Nike is hitching their horse to their prized stallion and going for the ride until Tiger decides he's done with them (which will be never). Look at Michael Jordan. He's been out of basketball how long? And he still has the #1 selling shoe.

What has to be considered with Rory is that he's young and he has a higher ceiling than anyone in the game right now. If you're dropping big bucks on Rory it's because you're in it for the long haul, because you believe he's the closest thing out there to the next Tiger. If (I believe WHEN) he starts winning regularly, he'll spend more time in the US. He's a quiet guy for sure, but when he speaks he give well thought out answers. He's never evasive, and thus far hasn't behaved like ...excuse the lack of elegance...a giant douche. Tiger is one of a kind. Rory could be the next Arnold or Jack.

If I'm Nike and was 100% certain I could drop Tiger and sign Rory, I'd do it. But I say that because I think his best days are well behind him, and from an ROI perspective, he's never going to generate enough revenue to offset what he's getting paid (Rory would certainly be cheaper). If you believe he's still got a handful of majors left in him, then you have to keep him.

I get what you're saying with MJ and ongoing shoe sales, but the difference is that prior to MJ, Nike was the #1 shoe on the planet. On that side of the business, they don't have to compete with anything akin to a TaylorMade, Titleist, or even Callaway. It's an easier market for them, and the chance of making a meaningful mistake is much lower.

[GolfSpy Matt]

I hear what you're saying, T, and I understand that winning can change a lot, but Rory doesn't have "it". You can call Tiger a giant douche, and I might not even disagree with you, but he's got "it". Jordan, another giant douche, had it. I don't think you can develop, teach, or learn it; you've got it or you don't. I love golf, but watching Rory is just watching golf. Watching Tiger is different.

I think this connects back to a topic we had going a while back about golfers lacking personality. Too many clones on tour, and, sorry, but Rory is right off the assembly line. Tiger is different, and different is better (as long as you win).

[RoverRick]

I tell you who the next big deal is. Bud Cauley. He qualified and played in the US Open. Made the cut finished 63, played in 8 events last year, made every cut, finished 116 on the money list. This year he has made 4 of 4 cuts and one top 25. No wins yet but they will come. He also beat Rickie Fowler on the amateur level.

I have no idea how it actually works, but it seems like Titleist sponsors everyone unless they can get a gig somewhere else. They may pay pretty big bucks but I have never heard of anyone going back to Titleist. Just the people who go away from them to the more lucrative contracts at the other OEMs.

[RookieBlue7]

RoverRick, on 10 February 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

I tell you who the next big deal is. Bud Cauley. He qualified and played in the US Open. Made the cut finished 63, played in 8 events last year, made every cut, finished 116 on the money list. This year he has made 4 of 4 cuts and one top 25. No wins yet but they will come. He also beat Rickie Fowler on the amateur level.

I have no idea how it actually works, but it seems like Titleist sponsors everyone unless the can get a gig somewhere else. They may pay pretty big bucks but I have never heard of anyone going back to Titleist. Just the people who go away from them to the more lucrative contracts at the other OEMs.

I can tell you no one touches Titleist's tee up money on the putter market. Of course no one else touches TaylorMade in any of the other markets as far as tee up money.

[GolfSpy T]

GolfSpy Matt, on 10 February 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I hear what you're saying, T, and I understand that winning can change a lot, but Rory doesn't have "it". You can call Tiger a giant douche, and I might not even disagree with you, but he's got "it". Jordan, another giant douche, had it. I don't think you can develop, teach, or learn it; you've got it or you don't. I love golf, but watching Rory is just watching golf. Watching Tiger is different.

I think this connects back to a topic we had going a while back about golfers lacking personality. Too many clones on tour, and, sorry, but Rory is right off the assembly line. Tiger is different, and different is better (as long as you win).

Matt - I think the "it" that Tiger has is different. He wins (or at least he won) more than anybody else, and often did it by golf's equivalent of blowout margins. Winning, for Tiger, was the whole of "it".

When you look at MJ, and before him, Magic, and before him (though probably not as quite the marketing force) Muhammed Ali, what they all had in common was an infectious charisma. The only thing infectious about Tiger is (insert your favorite venereal disease here).

I could be wrong, but Rory displays hints of a quiet charisma. As he matures it might become something bigger. It might be nothing.

Watching Tiger is only different because he was such a supreme talent. If he doesn't win, he's nothing from a marketing standpoint. Comparing Tiger to MJ, and Muhammad Ali (pre-Parkinson's)...those guys continued to move the needle after their careers were over.

Unless his attitude changes dramatically (transforms himself into an Arnold Palmer type), the minute Tiger's career is over, so is his ability to move product.

20 years from now, nobody is going to refer to hm as "Mr. Woods" and that, I think, speaks volumes about how he's actually perceived.

[GolfSpy Matt]

GolfSpy T, on 11 February 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Matt - I think the "it" that Tiger has is different. He wins (or at least he won) more than anybody else, and often did it by golf's equivalent of blowout margins. Winning, for Tiger, was the whole of "it".

When you look at MJ, and before him, Magic, and before him (though probably not as quite the marketing force) Muhammed Ali, what they all had in common was an infectious charisma. The only thing infectious about Tiger is (insert your favorite venereal disease here).

I could be wrong, but Rory displays hints of a quiet charisma. As he matures it might become something bigger. It might be nothing.

Watching Tiger is only different because he was such a supreme talent. If he doesn't win, he's nothing from a marketing standpoint. Comparing Tiger to MJ, and Muhammad Ali (pre-Parkinson's)...those guys continued to move the needle after their careers were over.

Unless his attitude changes dramatically (transforms himself into an Arnold Palmer type), the minute Tiger's career is over, so is his ability to move product.

20 years from now, nobody is going to refer to hm as "Mr. Woods" and that, I think, speaks volumes about how he's actually perceived.

T, I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Jordan's "personality" was a creation of Nike's marketing department (sound familiar?). There's no question he still sells shoes, but what has he (the person) done since he quit playing? Magic and Ali I'll grant you, they're a different sort. As to whether or not Tiger will move product after he's retired...what golfer does? Arnie has a new clothing line, but what's he done for Callaway? Is Jack moving lots of drivers?