[R.P. Jacobs II]

I was listening to The Drive(Golf Channel) this morning and one of the questions posed to the announcers, along with Peter Jacobson as a guest,was should the Pro-Ams be shortened to nine holes, with say, a mandatory lunch &/or "lesson" substituted for the other nine holes...Then they got into a discussion on the pros/cons of the events & it was great to hear Jacobson take the position that Wednesdays(& many times Tuesday has been added due to the demand)are the most important day of the tournament week because it's only because of those sponsors that these guys are able to play for the money that they do & get the superstar treatment that they receive on tour...

The Pro's biggest ****** seems to be the time that these event consume, mainly the six hour rounds...Having played in Nationwide, Champions(it actually was pre "Champion" title) & PGA Pro-Ams, I never was part of a six hour round..The longest was 5 1/2 hours, & the main reason for the lengthy play was the number of ams who payed to play..Shotgun start, players on every tee w/ half the tees having two groups..I only played in one Senior Pro-Am, & our Pro, who was touted in the press as "a great guy" & a real Horatio Alger success story(club pro to Senior Major Champion)couldn't have been worse..A client had invited me to play in his threesome & @ the time I was playing to a +1 & my client was an 8 & the third am was an 11..As far as pro-am groupings go, this was a dream threesome for the pro..I've been in two others where one am was playing his first round...EVER..Incredible, but true..He was a reporter covering the tournament..The other was playing for ther first time in 12 years..Anyway, this senior pro showed up w/attitude(we believe he was hung over) & it went downhill from there...And to top it off, he cheated...I'm not going to go into it here, except to say that I'd seen alot in my then, 32 years of playing, & I was stunned..I only looked @ his caddie & as our eyes met, it's that situation where he knew & my eyes told him that I knew...Nothing more was said though I will say that it was the most disgusting moment I've ever witnessed on a golf course..

Tiger stopping in mid-backswing due to a camera click?..In a Wednesday Pro-Am?..PLEASE!..I again agree with Peter Jacobson that Tiger has mental issues far greater than that camera click to let that effect him on a day where it's acccepted that it's gonna be a circus..But I digress...What are your thoughts on the Pro-Ams?..Should the format be changed?..If so, how would you set one up?..And if you have any war stories from one(or more)either as a player or fan, please share..The Best..Fairways & Greens 4ever...

[jmiller065]

Well if you force someone to do something that they really don't want to do in their routine the day before the tournament is set to tee off (Wednesday for a Thursday start) then the pros are going to be a little grumpy. For males how often has you wife/ girl friend dragged you into a shopping mall and you hated it but were forced to do so to make her happy. I feel that Pros view the Pro-AM the exact same way, they are being dragged into it by the tour and sponsors and they would much rather be preparing for the tournament on their own terms.

I am not that big of a Tiger fan but I think I understand his mental approach or have a guess at the very least. I think that Tiger stops in his swing to a camera click in the Pro-AM because he is trying to use the 6 hours to get final tournament preparation done the day before the tournament starts and not breaking routine. Ben Hogan once he hit his first ball on the practice tee would go into a mental cocoon, not saying a single word to anyone really until the round was over. A read somewhere that a lady asked him for an autograph when he was on the practice tee before his round, his response was "I am sorry ma'am I have already started me round." Tiger has this type of cocoon but not AS extreme obviously he says SOME things to his playing partners at times. He might as well use the circus like atmosphere to mentally prepare for the tournament in itself as that is how crowds are for tigers grouping 'circus like' anyways.

I think that I would have to agree to shorten a pro-am to 9 holes with clinics provided afterwards, each pro gives a 30 minute clinic on what the group thinks could be useful information to them. As a +1 I would think that for you it would be whatever was your weakest link. Same for the 8 and really the 11., most of the time that is a short game, putting, course management type of questions at 11 or better. This entire thing would have taken 3.5 hours tops.

Lets be honest you are a single player that gets paired with a 3 other golfers randomly, you don't know who they are before the round. They all know you from the local tournaments and club house as being a great player. You then get on the course and the peace of play is about as fast as a snail can move. This is going to get on your nerves, you don't want a casual weekend round playing more then 4.5 hours do you? Now you are told before the tee goes in the ground that you have a guy in your group that has never played golf before or anther one hasn't played in 12 years. What is your first thought? I know that mine would be 'ahh s*** this is gonna be a long f***ing day!'. You had no idea if you were gonna get a good group or a piss poor one. All you know is that you will be waiting 15 to 20 minutes or more per hole, and a lot of times standing at the tee waiting to hit or standing in the fairway waiting for your group to play up and the green to clear.

I know when I play as a single and get paired up with people that a lot of times I walk to my ball and realize that everyone else is walking around or driving the cart around searching for a ball in the trees 50 yards behind me. I then have to wait for them to find the ball, pick a club, hit hope that the thing gets past my ball. I have seen someone take 4 swings to get there ball to move past my drive. That is just going to kill your rhythm that people like to get into when playing golf. Walking pace, tempo, stay nice relaxed and lose. It is hard to stay relaxed and lose when playing partners are all over the map over 18 holes.

I think that I have to agree with the idea of shortening that situation to 9 holes and a 30 minute clinic for the 3 people paired with the pro. Make it more enjoyable for everyone involved=.

[wdgolf]

Quote

Well if you force someone to do something that they really don't want to do in their routine the day before the tournament is set to tee off (Wednesday for a Thursday start) then the pros are going to be a little grumpy. For males how often has you wife/ girl friend dragged you into a shopping mall and you hated it but were forced to do so to make her happy. I feel that Pros view the Pro-AM the exact same way, they are being dragged into it by the tour and sponsors and they would much rather be preparing for the tournament on their own terms.

I'm of the opinion that the Pros need to be professionals. You don't always get to do what you enjoy in your job, but biting the hand that feeds is a terribly way to complain about it.

Quote

I think that I would have to agree to shorten a pro-am to 9 holes with clinics provided afterwards, each pro gives a 30 minute clinic on what the group thinks could be useful information to them. As a +1 I would think that for you it would be whatever was your weakest link. Same for the 8 and really the 11., most of the time that is a short game, putting, course management type of questions at 11 or better. This entire thing would have taken 3.5 hours tops.

The issue with this is just because you are good at something, doesn't make you a good teacher at it. Plus, the pro am should be considered another practice round for them and they get a lot more out of that than giving out lessons, which requires a completely different mentality.

[RoverRick]

I watch an interview earlier today with Zach Johnson that took place during yesterdays Pro-Am and he was asked about doing away with or changing the pro-am. He said something to the effect of, are you kidding me? Wednesdays are the most important day of the week. We raise lots of money for charities, and we get to play with customers of our sponsors, where would we be with out sponsors. This is our opportunity to give back. And it is one of my favorite days of the week. Thursday thru Sunday are serious business and is just a sport. Wednesday, we get to play with real people.


I can not say that Zach has always been my favorite player, but he made giant step to becoming one with a attitude like that.

[GolfSpy Matt]

First things first: PGA Pros are paid boatloads of money to play golf. You can't suck it up and PLAY GOLF with 3 guys who are paying thousands of dollars for the privilege of playing with you?

Everyone has a part of their job they don't like, but that's not an excuse to do that part of your job badly or with attitude. There are people (or kids, back when I was a classroom teacher) I'd rather not teach, but guess what? I teach them, and I do it with a smile on my face, because that's the job. Your attitude is up to you: you can piss and moan about the part of your job that you don't like or you can choose to find what's enjoyable about it and smile.

As for format changes, I've caddied in two PGA Pro-Ams and I didn't find the pace of play to be too awful. At the event I caddied in (BMW Championship) the rule was that once you could no longer make birdie (with your handicap) you picked up. This was nice because it kept things moving. Not sure if this is the rule everywhere, but perhaps it should be.

I would not like to see it cut to 9 holes as I don't think people would be as enthused about participating. Sensible or not, it undercuts the perception of the event. "We just played nine" versus "We played a round." Big difference, especially for the amount of money that these guys are paying.

Finally, WD beat me to the point that just because you can play doesn't mean you can teach. Plus, I think a pro's bad attitude would be even more evident in a clinic as opposed to the round.

[Tyk]

Sponsors should be able to solve this all on their own. If a pro is an ass about the Pro-Am and doesn't want to support and promote their company, don't sponsor him.

To play devils advocate a bit though; I can see how the Pro-Ams would get pretty tiresome for the pros. We the masses see it as "one day" but alot of these guys are playing almost every week. To go with jmiller's analogy: ya, I can put a smile on my face for a day of shopping with the wife. Maybe even once a month. If its once a week I'm going to end up sleeping on the couch!

One would like to think that these guys should be able to conduct themselves like professionals and view it as part of the job. But these guys are on tour only because they are skilled golfers. Not because they are great guys, or patient, or have great attitudes or appreciative or anything like that. Their JOB is to play a game and make money doing it. While the amateur sees it as the sponsors are making this all happen, the pro's attitude could be more like "I gotta play well to reap the benefits, one day a week playing with hacks isn't helping me do that!"

[jmiller065]

I am obviosuly playing the flip side of the argument for a reason...
You make valid points and I agree with all of you...

However, think about it this way...
Do you think that these guys would be playing golf even if the big prize polls deals weren't around?
Hmm a few names come to mind that didn't make a lot off golf like the players that are around now do.
Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Gene Sarazen, Seve Ballesteros. I could keep going from golfers before 1990 (Jack and Arny started the media wave that we know today).

So I guess all other sports should start pimping out their athletes for a 'Pro-AM' the day before the super bowel for example. Football, Basketball, Hockey any other sport that has a professional organized group doesn't do that to their players. Heck the other sports if the person has a terrible game they get paid the same regardless.

In golf taking out the sponsorships of the player to play equipment and support a product they get paid for their ability and where they finish that week. I think it is a fair statement to say that some people would like to prepare to make there check a little differently then being thrown into a circus that golf named the 'Pro-AM'. We will pimp you out right before the super bowel each week golfers, that shouldn't be an issue in your preparation for the big game.

[wdgolf]

jmiller065, on 22 March 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

I am obviosuly playing the flip side of the argument for a reason...
You make valid points and I agree with all of you...

However, think about it this way...
Do you think that these guys would be playing golf even if the big prize polls deals weren't around?
Hmm a few names come to mind that didn't make a lot off golf like the players that are around now do.
Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Gene Sarazen, Seve Ballesteros. I could keep going from golfers before 1990 (Jack and Arny started the media wave that we know today).

So I guess all other sports should start pimping out their athletes for a 'Pro-AM' the day before the super bowel for example. Football, Basketball, Hockey any other sport that has a professional organized group doesn't do that to their players. Heck the other sports if the person has a terrible game they get paid the same regardless.

In golf taking out the sponsorships of the player to play equipment and support a product they get paid for their ability and where they finish that week. I think it is a fair statement to say that some people would like to prepare to make there check a little differently then being thrown into a circus that golf named the 'Pro-AM'. We will pimp you out right before the super bowel each week golfers, that shouldn't be an issue in your preparation for the big game.

Totally different business models. Amateurs playing football with someone like Ndamukong Suh aren't going to want to play football for very long. In baseball, hockey, and basketball, they play almost every day, so they literally can't squeeze in an amateur game. That said, there are many charity games out there similar to a Pro Am.

One of the great things about golf too is professionals and amateurs can play on equal footing because of handicap and tee locations, so from a business point of view, it makes a lot of sense and it helps the sport continue to grow.

[R.P. Jacobs II]

jmiller, you're right about the tempo..It's very, very difficult..The Champion's pro-am that I spoke of was the best grouping I've been in, handicap-wise, & it still took us almost five hours & fifteen minutes because of the mess in front of us..I think 9 holes + a lunch & small clinic w/the pro would be a nice afternoon, and when it was over, you wouldn't feel as though you were just put through a meat grinder..

I quess what has always left me shaking my head is how many really, really poor golfers, & I mean chops(30++handicappers) show up for these pro-ams..Not to sound arrogant, though there's no way that I would subject others to my game if it was that poor..I'd be embarrassed to be with my friends, much less strangers...The reporter that I mentioned earlier said he'd been to the range 3-4 times that week and a co-worker went w/him to show him the "basic" grip, swing, etc...He bought a dozen Titleist DTs & we were given 1 dozen ProV1s & when we finished, he had 6 balls left..Honest to God!..18 frickin balls!!..That's 1.5 balls/hole..I truly did feel sorry for our pro..It was a Nationwide event & 3 of his last four drives were in the trees left..He was a rookie & he said this was the most "tragic" experience he'd ever had on a golf course..Honest to God, he said that..Brutal, yea, but "tragic?"..Hardly..A little overly-dramatic, though he actually went into the greenside trap w/the guy on 18 to show him how to hit a burried shot...The kid was a class act..

I understand the downside of the current pro-am set-up, though until a "better" way to say thank you to the sponsors & supporters is found, a round of golf is what we have..And the event is a thank you...Who else but a bunch of spoiled little brats who get to play on the finest manicured fairways/greens in the world & get treated like royalty @ every event would cry about one afternoon, whether it be five or six hours, and complain & act like a rube?..Some do forget that it is a game & it's for entertainment..Your's & mine..If we don't buy the clubs, magazines, etc. & watch the tournaments on TV & more importantly, go to the tournaments, these clowns go away..They have to get "real" jobs..A few might even have to, God Forbid, teach one of the chops that they so detest(Though in fairness, I detest 'em too)..

No, they should listen to Arnold, Fuzzy, & Jake and thank their God every night that they were blessed to be able to play a game for a living and have the opportunity to earn more money than 99% of the population will ever have...Oh well, gotta go..Our season opening "moon lighters swat"..18 holes in under 3 hours..Now that's golf!!..Later..Fairways & Greens 4ever...

[finalist]

I'm wondering how the Pro cheated in the OP's first post? What did he do?

[Lambo]

I think it would hurt the tour from a charity point of view.

We've all heard horror stories about pro ams, but they are an important part of the tournament raising money to put back into the community.

I've played in two of them here in Greensboro, and had a great time. We actually won the pro am one year, so that was very fun. All I can say is that both times my pro was a great guy and seemed to enjoy being out there with us. Now I'm sure the money they get for the day helps ease the pain a tad bit.

It's a different game when you have a crowd along the ropes starin at you during your back swing!

[R.P. Jacobs II]

GolfSpy Matt, on 22 March 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

First things first: PGA Pros are paid boatloads of money to play golf. You can't suck it up and PLAY GOLF with 3 guys who are paying thousands of dollars for the privilege of playing with you?

Everyone has a part of their job they don't like, but that's not an excuse to do that part of your job badly or with attitude. There are people (or kids, back when I was a classroom teacher) I'd rather not teach, but guess what? I teach them, and I do it with a smile on my face, because that's the job. Your attitude is up to you: you can piss and moan about the part of your job that you don't like or you can choose to find what's enjoyable about it and smile.

As for format changes, I've caddied in two PGA Pro-Ams and I didn't find the pace of play to be too awful. At the event I caddied in (BMW Championship) the rule was that once you could no longer make birdie (with your handicap) you picked up. This was nice because it kept things moving. Not sure if this is the rule everywhere, but perhaps it should be.

I would not like to see it cut to 9 holes as I don't think people would be as enthused about participating. Sensible or not, it undercuts the perception of the event. "We just played nine" versus "We played a round." Big difference, especially for the amount of money that these guys are paying.

Finally, WD beat me to the point that just because you can play doesn't mean you can teach. Plus, I think a pro's bad attitude would be even more evident in a clinic as opposed to the round.

Matt, I've played in a PGA & a 2 Nationwide pro-ams over the past three years & we played a scramble format where, if a guy was "out of" a hole, the most shots he could hit on a par 4 from the fairway was 2 and on a par 5 it would've been 3 shots..You played your own ball into the hole, so since one of us was in the hole, he'd pick up, or in one event, he'd get a putt from the best shot on the green..These events weren't bad at all from a playing standpoint, it's just that they let so many ams play, and as I said, 9 tees had two foursomes on 'em..But in the Nationwide event, it was $3000/man, $9000/group, so that's $81,000..That's big money for charity @ a Nationwide event so I guess it's a good thing...Fairways & Greens 4ever...

[RoverRick]

216 PGA Tour Pros made more than $100K last year, 189 of them made more than $200K, and 142 made $500K and 89 made more than a million dollars. I am having a very difficult time working up sympathy about them having to spend 6 hours on Wednesday playing golf with people that can afford to pay $5,000 to play golf. I may write more after I find some tissue.

[R.P. Jacobs II]

finalist, on 22 March 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I'm wondering how the Pro cheated in the OP's first post? What did he do?

I'm going to refrain from naming him for obvious reasons, though if you've followed the Senior/Champions Tour, based on my prior description, you should be able to guess who it is, though I will not confirm that so please don't ask..Thanks in advance for understanding...

Anyway, what he did was he knowingly played a ball that was not his own & posted a bidie on the hole, & he was low Pro by a shot for the $10,000 check...

How it happened was he hit his drive into some heavy feskew grass left of the fairway about 275-280 out..I was about 5-8 yds ahead of him @ right center fairway..On the tee we showed our balls & he played a V1 #1 w/three red dots below the #1..I play the same w/a pink "BC" on the side(breast cancer-my mom's a two time survivor & I'm involved with the orginization)..Anyway, he's over there w/his caddie & he's covered every square inch looking..It was longer than 5 minutes, though we were backed up so there was no rush..I had started over to help & he waved me off,so since he had been acting like a P***K thus far, I said the hell with it & waited @ my ball..His caddy was walking back to get the bag, & we thought to also get him another ball when we hear him yell, "Yea, I got it"..I didn't really think anything of it, because, well, think about it, here's a Senior major champion, a pro, bla, bla, bla...

He rips this shot out & it rolls up onto the green about 12' below & right of the hole..Hell of a shot..I put mine about a foot to the right of his, same length..Walking up his caddie is taking the bag left to the side of the green near the next tee..The pro is next to me when I'm wiping off my ball& he asks me if I'd mind cleaning his..No problem I say..As I'm wiping his ball I notice it's "clean"..No dots, marks, nothing..He had walked to his caddie to get his putter & his caddie walked to me to get his ball..I had looked @ the ball probably 3-4 times though I made a point of doing it again in front of his caddie & when I handed him the ball I made a point of saying"*** said this was his ball"..The caddie looked @ it, & he too turned it(looking for the three dots I presumed)& then looked @ me & after a slight awkwaard silence, said "Thanks"..All I can say is that his look said it all..

That was not the ball that he hit off of the tee..Funny thing, on the next hole, we both ended up in the same trap off the tee & as I was standing there, I looked and, low & behold, there was a Titleist Pro V1 with the three dot line(red) under the #1...I've seen amateurs cheat, & I've been fortunate to have played with a few pros, & other than a few "generous" marks on the green, which are always debatable, I've never, ever seen a pro cheat..Until that day..I don't know why, though it was sorta like when I found out that there was no Santa..A big let-down....Oh well...Fairways & Greens 4ever...

[R.P. Jacobs II]

I just noticed this, and that is that this subject shouldn't be in The Putter category..Sorry bout that..Typical..Oh yea, please excuse the typos..As I've said before, my spell check doesn't work so I'm on my own..I have a dictionary next to my PC, though sometimes I get lazy..lol...Fairways & Greens 4ever..