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Edit 4/3/12 -- Does lighter really mean longer?


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#16 JMiller

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

1) swing speed doesn't translate into distance exactly at 2.5 yards. It is more about energy transfer to the ball in the swing and ball speed that translates into distance. Thus the smash factor calculation, and max COR under USGA rules of 0.830. You can bust one at 130mph get a 1.30 smash factor

2) weight of the club head has nothing to do if you can swing it after 35 holes, a heaver weighted head will make the shaft flex more then if the lighter weighted head was placed on the same shaft. So the heavier head would give you a little more flex and kick for speed after 35 holes then the lighter one :)

Here is a really good explanation on smash factor --> http://www.planetrut...24/Default.aspx

Basically the lighter club is only worth it if you can get about the same smash factor as the the heaver head, then the 2mph more swing speed would translate into ball speed and more distance.

I have a 165ball speed average at a 112-115 swing speed... so roughly I am getting between 1.4732 and 1.4348 in terms of smash factor of the ball speed stays the same at 165mph. Now If i could keep the 1.4732 and have the 115 that bumps the ball speed to 169mph 4mph extra ball speed ~ 8 more yards of carry

KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
Cleveland 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75" (0.25" under), 59.5* - 62.5* (0.5* flat), 21* - 43* (standard loft) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. 48-10 @ 35.25", 63.0* w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. 54-12 @ 35.25", 63.0* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. 60-M @ 35.25", 63.0* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58 --> Irons & 48* ~ two 5" build-up wraps + one full double sided wrap
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58 --> 54* & 60* ~ one 3" build-up wrap + one 5" build-up wrap + one 7" build-up wrap + one full double sided wrap


#17 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:05 PM

1) swing speed doesn't translate into distance exactly at 2.5 yards. It is more about energy transfer to the ball in the swing and ball speed that translates into distance. Thus the smash factor calculation, and max COR under USGA rules of 0.830. You can bust one at 130mph get a 1.30 smash factor

Here is a really good explanation on smash factor --> http://www.planetrut...24/Default.aspx

Basically the lighter club is only worth it if you can get about the same smash factor as the the heaver head, then the 2mph more swing speed would translate into ball speed and more distance.

I have a 165ball speed average at a 112-115 swing speed... so roughly I am getting between 1.4732 and 1.4348 in terms of smash factor of the ball speed stays the same at 165mph. Now If i could keep the 1.4732 and have the 115 that bumps the ball speed to 169mph 4mph extra ball speed ~ 8 more yards of carry


I promise I do understand smash factor and why factors into total distance, but whenever you do an experiment, you want to reduce the number of variables as much as possible in order to come to a better conclusion. By assuming a smash factor of 1.5, then swing speed is all that is taken into account. By swinging as fast as I can each time, I'm removing the human element of guessing what an 80% swing is.

There are a few variables I couldn't remove (for now), mainly the swing weights were not the same between the two clubs and the club head shape was not the same.


2) weight of the club head has nothing to do if you can swing it after 35 holes, a heaver weighted head will make the shaft flex more then if the lighter weighted head was placed on the same shaft. So the heavier head would give you a little more flex and kick for speed after 35 holes then the lighter one :)


I'm not sure I completely buy that there is a significant effect when a club head is lighter. Most driver heads weigh 200g, driver #1's head is 190g. 10g at the tip isn't going to do a huge amount to the shaft flex, though as clubs get longer the effect will increase. I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong here though, these are just my assumptions.

But as a simple test, swing a regular hammer a hundred times, then swing a sledge hammer a hundred times and tell me there's no difference :). Going from a 335g club to a 275g club is an 18% weight reduction and could be significant for some people.

#18 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:25 AM

There are so many things here that you are not taking into account like spin, and shaft flex, and the technologies that add kick to the shafts, but there is one thing that is glaring to me and your hammer example really brought it home.


Newton's 2 law of motion says that force = mass x acceleration. So let us say that you have a club that weighs 325 grams and you swing it at 116.65 mph, after you convert so that all the units are right then we find that you have struck that ball with a force of call it 17 newtons or 3.8 pounds of force. Now if you stike the ball at the same speed but the club now weighs 265 grams you have a force of about 14 newtons or 3.14 pounds of force. Now cutting to the chase, in order to hit the ball with the same for with a lighter club you need to swing the club at 143 mph.

So while you may be able to generate more speed with a lighter club, which you have not proven, you can not generate as much force as you can with a club that weighs more.

The fallacy of this arguement is that you strike the ball with the head of the club. If the head weighs the same then it makes sense to lighten the shaft and grip and other weight. Since we are almost there in this arguement, you can effect the swing speed by lightening the arms also. Whether your wear a watch while playing golf or a golf glove or a heavy ring, can affect the swing speed.

OEM's do not try to lower the weight of the head of the club for this reason. They want to make the components light and then weight in different locations to effect ball flight but if you simply make the head lighter to speed up the swing speed you are making a grave error.

I went back through here and tried to glean what part of the club was lighter and it looked as if you did not say what was lighter, just overall club weight.

Arm length is also a determining factor. While we can not alter that, just look at Michelle Wie and Bubba Watson. They have long and skinny arms. Since the pivot point is the spine than they have an advantage. At my club we have two guys that are 6'10" tall. They both bomb the ball because when you add the drive length to they arm length they generate huge club head speed. Both of them use belly putters but they use them like standard putter.

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#19 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:24 AM

There are so many things here that you are not taking into account like spin, and shaft flex, and the technologies that add kick to the shafts, but there is one thing that is glaring to me and your hammer example really brought it home.


Newton's 2 law of motion says that force = mass x acceleration. So let us say that you have a club that weighs 325 grams and you swing it at 116.65 mph, after you convert so that all the units are right then we find that you have struck that ball with a force of call it 17 newtons or 3.8 pounds of force. Now if you stike the ball at the same speed but the club now weighs 265 grams you have a force of about 14 newtons or 3.14 pounds of force. Now cutting to the chase, in order to hit the ball with the same for with a lighter club you need to swing the club at 143 mph.

So while you may be able to generate more speed with a lighter club, which you have not proven, you can not generate as much force as you can with a club that weighs more.

The fallacy of this arguement is that you strike the ball with the head of the club. If the head weighs the same then it makes sense to lighten the shaft and grip and other weight. Since we are almost there in this arguement, you can effect the swing speed by lightening the arms also. Whether your wear a watch while playing golf or a golf glove or a heavy ring, can affect the swing speed.

OEM's do not try to lower the weight of the head of the club for this reason. They want to make the components light and then weight in different locations to effect ball flight but if you simply make the head lighter to speed up the swing speed you are making a grave error.

I went back through here and tried to glean what part of the club was lighter and it looked as if you did not say what was lighter, just overall club weight.

Arm length is also a determining factor. While we can not alter that, just look at Michelle Wie and Bubba Watson. They have long and skinny arms. Since the pivot point is the spine than they have an advantage. At my club we have two guys that are 6'10" tall. They both bomb the ball because when you add the drive length to they arm length they generate huge club head speed. Both of them use belly putters but they use them like standard putter.


Yes, arm length, weight on the hands, spin, shaft flex, etc will affect overall distance, but the argument for lighter clubs is that they can be swung faster and therefore generate greater speed.

I think you did hit on a possible major flaw in my tests though. The head of driver #1 is 190g and the head of driver #2 is 200g. Thus the drag coefficient is going to affect driver #1 more than driver #2. This could explain why the swing speeds were so similar. Unfortunately, I don't have another shaft I can swap into my R11s to make a more accurate test.

I did look around at various lightweight clubs. The Cleveland 270 has a 39g shaft and a 25g grip, so it still has a 200g head. I also looked at the Tour Edge XGC-4, TM Superfast 2.0, and Adams Speedline Ultralight. All have 200g heads. The only heads I could find that went lower than 200g were the Acer Leggera, Maltby BM3 (if you swap out the weight), and Wishon 739 CCG.

#20 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:41 AM

Yes, arm length, weight on the hands, spin, shaft flex, etc will affect overall distance, but the argument for lighter clubs is that they can be swung faster and therefore generate greater speed.

I think you did hit on a major flaw in my tests though. The head of driver #1 is 190g and the head of driver #2 is 200g. Thus the drag coefficient is going to affect driver #1 more than driver #2. This could easily explain why the swing speeds were so similar. Unfortunately, I don't have another shaft I can swap into my R11s to make a more accurate test.

I did look around at various lightweight clubs. The Cleveland 270 has a 39g shaft and a 25g grip, so it still has a 200g head. I also looked at the Tour Edge XGC-4, TM Superfast 2.0, and Adams Speedline Ultralight. All have 200g heads. The only heads I could find that went lower than 200g were the Acer Leggera and Maltby BM3 if you swap out the weight.


But that is the point of my arguement. You do not want or probably can not find a head lighter than 200 grams. Now with these number plugged into my arguement, I do everything on a spreadsheet because I am lazy and do not want to have to constantly punch in number in a calculator.

Your 116.65 swing speed with a 200 gram head means you hit with a 10.4 newton force. To get the same force with a 190 gram head you have to have a swing speed of 123 mph.

Also drag would be more affected by the aerodynamics of the club than the weight.

Now I do not know if changing the swing weight has the same effect as changing the overall weight. I would think a heavier head would swing faster.

I think this fixation on swing speed is misplaced. I can swing really fast. I can hit the ball 350 yards everytime. 200 yards down the fairway and 150 yards right of the fairway. It makes no difference how far you hit the ball. It only matters how far off line you hit the ball.

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#21 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

But that is the point of my arguement. You do not want or probably can not find a head lighter than 200 grams. Now with these number plugged into my arguement, I do everything on a spreadsheet because I am lazy and do not want to have to constantly punch in number in a calculator.


But I did find a head lighter than 200g. For me, if the ultimate discovery in this thread is don't use sub 200g heads, then that's something new I've learned.

Your 116.65 swing speed with a 200 gram head means you hit with a 10.4 newton force. To get the same force with a 190 gram head you have to have a swing speed of 123 mph.


The opposite to this argument is how much force it takes to get the club head to 116.65 mph? A lighter club head would require less force, no? Therefore I should be swinging the lighter clubhead faster...

Also drag would be more affected by the aerodynamics of the club than the weight.


Yes and no. Both clubs have titanium faces that are mostly flat, slightly convex. I'm not going to try to make any assumptions about aerodynamics, but any driver has face that is inherently not very aerodynamic.


Now I do not know if changing the swing weight has the same effect as changing the overall weight. I would think a heavier head would swing faster.

I think this fixation on swing speed is misplaced. I can swing really fast. I can hit the ball 350 yards everytime. 200 yards down the fairway and 150 yards right of the fairway. It makes no difference how far you hit the ball. It only matters how far off line you hit the ball.


The reason for the fixation on swing speed is that all lightweight clubs are promoted as easier to swing faster. The question is if I swing two drivers, hit the ball perfectly in the center of the clubface with the same degree of draw/fade, will the lighter club be faster (and therefore longer?). The only way to answer this question is to keep all other variables constant.

#22 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:57 AM

As I pointed out as far as the 10 gram lighter head goes you have to hit it almost 6 mph faster to generate as much force according to issac newton. You have not demonstrated that you can actually swing a club head that is lighter faster. You had a much greater variation between swings with the same club than you did with different clubs. Also by having a heavier head you have more effect of gravity helping with the down swing.
As far as aerodynamics goes the club faces are pretty much the same so the aero effect comes from the back of the club. Notice on some 18 wheelers now the have a tapered fin section on the back which reduces the drag by the wind. Since 1995 or so the bed of Chevrolet pickups is two inches narrower at the back than the front and it is more fuel efficient to drive with the tailgate up than down. The callaway razr fit has a little fin on the back for aero purposes SUVs have a fin on the back for aero. There are so many things that are done for aero that are subtle and mostly unnoticed. I am not convinced that have any effect on the golf club but when my razr fit arrives some year I will be able to answer that better.
Hogan fairway woods (wooden woods) back in the 80's had a "speed slot" for aero.
If the club is lighter in theory you can swing it faster. But if the head is lighter you must swing it much faster to even maintain the same force applied to the ball.

In my :taylormade-small: Golf Bag for Dry Fairways.

 

:titelist-small:  910D3 10.5* on Mitsubishi Rayon Corp, Fubuki Zt S

:titelist-small:  913F 15* on Aldilia VooDoo SNV8 S

:mizuno-small:  MP FLI HI 2-3-4 on KBS Hybrid S

:mizuno-small:  MP53 5 and MP68 6-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold S300

ScфrGolf   48. 53, & 59 on True Temper Dynamic Gold Wedge

:scotty-small: Coronado

 

In the Walking Wet Fairways Bag

:taylormade-small: SLDR 10.5* on Paderson Kinetexx IMRT R

:benhogan-small: CFT 17*, 21*, & 24* Hybrids on Project X PXv 6.0

:benhogan-small: CFT Apex Edge 5-E on KBS C Taper Lite S

Wedges and Putter are the same.

 

:titelist-small: Pro V1X

:footjoy-small:

 

All grips are Best Grips Micro-Perforated

 


#23 JMiller

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:05 PM

You don't need to consider aerodynamics when talking about how weight attached to the shaft will effect flex. Place a shaft into a Frequency machine, stick a 210gram weight on the tip of the shaft then get the frequency reading for that shaft and 210grams of weight. Then remove the 210gram weight and attach ha 190gram weight in the same fashion then get the reading from the machine for that weight. The 210grams will frequency lower then the 190grams meaning that the shaft plays softer in the 210grams then the 190grams. Majority of frequency machines come with a ASTM standard 205 tip weight included for measuring raw shafts. Frequency changes if you move up or down from the 205gram tip weight.


Back to the topic 'is light longer' that answer is simple, they only go longer when the smash factor is equal. For a lot of better players they find it easier to control the face by feel with a heavier head and thus providing a more consistent swing speed and smash factor. Average swing speed is completely misleading, it is more about your consistent swing speed in a set, call it the normal tempo and swing speed that produces the best results.

I provided data that showed you were more all over the map on Driver #1 finding you most frequent swing speed (consistent normal swing speed) of 118-119 only 50% of the time. On Driver #2 the fluctuation were less apparent and more consistent by 20% over Driver #1 finding 117-118 (consistent normal swing speed) a total of 70% of the time for the 10 swing sample that you provided.

The threshold for Driver #1 to at least match Driver #2 in terms of distance, Assuming a swing speed of 116.5 and smash factor of 1.45 this gives us a ball speed of 168.925.

Driver #1 needs to have at least a 1.4255 smash to match the Driver #2 at least 70% of your swings other wise for your normal swing Driver #2 will produce more consistent better results.

You would need to find the 1.45 at least 70% of the time (the percentage you have your normal swing speed for Driver #2) to make the driver #1 longer for your average consistent swing speed, if you did then the ball speed is increased to 171.825.

171.825 - 168.925 = 2.9mph extra ball speed if you can get the 1.45 smash the same percentage as the heavier driver. Assuming that 1mph ball speed = 2 yards carry then you are looking at 5.8 additional yards!!!


Removing spin and some other factors on distance just translating ball speed at 2yards per 1mph with the ball speeds listed above (this obviously is not the case in real life thanks ot wind drag and spin on the ball.

50% of your swing will go 343.65 with Driver #1
70% of your Drives will go 337.85 with Driver #2

now what happens on the 50% you are off on tempo swinging slower of faster on Driver #1...
If you do not get at least 1.4255 20% of the time then you start losing distance to Driver #2 for the 20% it will find you average smash factor.

The reaming 30% is mostly about the average smash factor and threshold where Driver #1 is longer then Driver #2 just like it was for when you found the tempo perfectly to replicate the swing speed on Driver #2. because the changes were only 2mph on Driver #2 rather then I think 4mph on Driver #1 I would have to assume you will get a higher smash factor more often on Driver #2 then Driver #1

KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
Cleveland 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75" (0.25" under), 59.5* - 62.5* (0.5* flat), 21* - 43* (standard loft) w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. 48-10 @ 35.25", 63.0* w/ KBS Tour-V X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. 54-12 @ 35.25", 63.0* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. 60-M @ 35.25", 63.0* w/ True Temper Dynamic Gold s400
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58 --> Irons & 48* ~ two 5" build-up wraps + one full double sided wrap
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58 --> 54* & 60* ~ one 3" build-up wrap + one 5" build-up wrap + one 7" build-up wrap + one full double sided wrap


#24 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

As I pointed out as far as the 10 gram lighter head goes you have to hit it almost 6 mph faster to generate as much force according to issac newton. You have not demonstrated that you can actually swing a club head that is lighter faster. You had a much greater variation between swings with the same club than you did with different clubs. Also by having a heavier head you have more effect of gravity helping with the down swing.
As far as aerodynamics goes the club faces are pretty much the same so the aero effect comes from the back of the club. Notice on some 18 wheelers now the have a tapered fin section on the back which reduces the drag by the wind. Since 1995 or so the bed of Chevrolet pickups is two inches narrower at the back than the front and it is more fuel efficient to drive with the tailgate up than down. The callaway razr fit has a little fin on the back for aero purposes SUVs have a fin on the back for aero. There are so many things that are done for aero that are subtle and mostly unnoticed. I am not convinced that have any effect on the golf club but when my razr fit arrives some year I will be able to answer that better.
Hogan fairway woods (wooden woods) back in the 80's had a "speed slot" for aero.
If the club is lighter in theory you can swing it faster. But if the head is lighter you must swing it much faster to even maintain the same force applied to the ball.


The more I think about it, the more I think the lack of difference in speed must be due to aerodynamics between the two club heads. 2am responses on the forum don't always lead to most well thought out posts :). Mainly I think this because if you stick your hand out of a moving car at 70mph, the slightest movements increases/decreases drag significantly. At 116mph, it's even more pronounced, not that I've ever driven that fast, as least not with the windows open...

I *could* do a test where I remove the weights from my driver to see if removing 10g will add 6mph to my swing speed to test this, but I'm not sure I want to constantly screw and unscrew the weights...

#25 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

You don't need to consider aerodynamics when talking about how weight attached to the shaft will effect flex. Place a shaft into a Frequency machine, stick a 210gram weight on the tip of the shaft then get the frequency reading for that shaft and 210grams of weight. Then remove the 210gram weight and attach ha 190gram weight in the same fashion then get the reading from the machine for that weight. The 210grams will frequency lower then the 190grams meaning that the shaft plays softer in the 210grams then the 190grams. Majority of frequency machines come with a ASTM standard 205 tip weight included for measuring raw shafts. Frequency changes if you move up or down from the 205gram tip weight.


Very good points and something I hadn't thought of.


Back to the topic 'is light longer' that answer is simple, they only go longer when the smash factor is equal. For a lot of better players they find it easier to control the face by feel with a heavier head and thus providing a more consistent swing speed and smash factor. Average swing speed is completely misleading, it is more about your consistent swing speed in a set, call it the normal tempo and swing speed that produces the best results.

I provided data that showed you were more all over the map on Driver #1 finding you most frequent swing speed (consistent normal swing speed) of 118-119 only 50% of the time. On Driver #2 the fluctuation were less apparent and more consistent by 20% over Driver #1 finding 117-118 (consistent normal swing speed) a total of 70% of the time for the 10 swing sample that you provided.

The threshold for Driver #1 to at least match Driver #2 in terms of distance, Assuming a swing speed of 116.5 and smash factor of 1.45 this gives us a ball speed of 168.925.

Driver #1 needs to have at least a 1.4255 smash to match the Driver #2 at least 70% of your swings other wise for your normal swing Driver #2 will produce more consistent better results.

You would need to find the 1.45 at least 70% of the time (the percentage you have your normal swing speed for Driver #2) to make the driver #1 longer for your average consistent swing speed, if you did then the ball speed is increased to 171.825.

171.825 - 168.925 = 2.9mph extra ball speed if you can get the 1.45 smash the same percentage as the heavier driver. Assuming that 1mph ball speed = 2 yards carry then you are looking at 5.8 additional yards!!!


Removing spin and some other factors on distance just translating ball speed at 2yards per 1mph with the ball speeds listed above (this obviously is not the case in real life thanks ot wind drag and spin on the ball.

50% of your swing will go 343.65 with Driver #1
70% of your Drives will go 337.85 with Driver #2

now what happens on the 50% you are off on tempo swinging slower of faster on Driver #1...
If you do not get at least 1.4255 20% of the time then you start losing distance to Driver #2 for the 20% it will find you average smash factor.

The reaming 30% is mostly about the average smash factor and threshold where Driver #1 is longer then Driver #2 just like it was for when you found the tempo perfectly to replicate the swing speed on Driver #2. because the changes were only 2mph on Driver #2 rather then I think 4mph on Driver #1 I would have to assume you will get a higher smash factor more often on Driver #2 then Driver #1


Boy I wish 70% of my drives went 337.85 yard :D

I wouldn't be surprised if average smash factor was higher on Driver #2, but it's something I don't have the tools to test. Would love to see a MGS Labs article on the subject that considers all these factors.

#26 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:20 PM

My point in the "not well thought out 2 am response" was that since you can not change the shape of the face or front profile of the club without affecting the performance you were left with changing the body and rear of the club. This is what Callaway did with the Razr Fit. This sounds great, and Adams Speedline touts an aerodynamic shape but I do not expect to see any significant difference because of aerodynamics.

I believe that the whole aerodynamic thing is a marketing gimmick. I believe they actually did it, I just do not believe that there were "significant" improvements because of this in the golf club arena

You could measure the effect of aero by using a smaller head (3 or 5 wood) on a driver shaft.

Removing the weights from your driver would also give you a true apples to apples test, taking out the aero and some other variables.

jmiller provided a formula for smash factor that reiterated my main point. Clubhead mass is directly proportional to the smash factor.

Posted Image

So as I stated you will have to increase your speed by 6 mph to make up for 10 grams of clubhead weight. I think the better test would be to add weight to the head. Even if you are swinging a little slower but use a heavier clubhead you get more force with the heavier head. Running the numbers, if you have a 190 gram head than you get the same force into the ball swinging at 123 mph as a 200 g head at 116 and a 210 g head at 111 and a 225g head at 104.

Using this Smash Factor formula and 10 as the spin loft. These same heads get the following smash factor. 190=1.45 200=1.464 210=1.478 and 225=1.495

So this validates my point that by going lighter you have to increase speed a lot in order maintain the same smash factor.

Of course by simply adding weight to the driver head with lead tape or whatever you will alter the center of gravity and therefore the launch angle. Raising the launch angle raises the spin loft which is inversely proportional and lowers the smash factor.

In my :taylormade-small: Golf Bag for Dry Fairways.

 

:titelist-small:  910D3 10.5* on Mitsubishi Rayon Corp, Fubuki Zt S

:titelist-small:  913F 15* on Aldilia VooDoo SNV8 S

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:mizuno-small:  MP53 5 and MP68 6-P on True Temper Dynamic Gold S300

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:scotty-small: Coronado

 

In the Walking Wet Fairways Bag

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:benhogan-small: CFT 17*, 21*, & 24* Hybrids on Project X PXv 6.0

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Wedges and Putter are the same.

 

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#27 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

My point in the "not well thought out 2 am response" was that since you can not change the shape of the face or front profile of the club without affecting the performance you were left with changing the body and rear of the club. This is what Callaway did with the Razr Fit. This sounds great, and Adams Speedline touts an aerodynamic shape but I do not expect to see any significant difference because of aerodynamics.

I believe that the whole aerodynamic thing is a marketing gimmick. I believe they actually did it, I just do not believe that there were "significant" improvements because of this in the golf club arena

You could measure the effect of aero by using a smaller head (3 or 5 wood) on a driver shaft.

Removing the weights from your driver would also give you a true apples to apples test, taking out the aero and some other variables.

jmiller provided a formula for smash factor that reiterated my main point. Clubhead mass is directly proportional to the smash factor.

Posted Image

So as I stated you will have to increase your speed by 6 mph to make up for 10 grams of clubhead weight. I think the better test would be to add weight to the head. Even if you are swinging a little slower but use a heavier clubhead you get more force with the heavier head. Running the numbers, if you have a 190 gram head than you get the same force into the ball swinging at 123 mph as a 200 g head at 116 and a 210 g head at 111 and a 225g head at 104.

Using this Smash Factor formula and 10 as the spin loft. These same heads get the following smash factor. 190=1.45 200=1.464 210=1.478 and 225=1.495

So this validates my point that by going lighter you have to increase speed a lot in order maintain the same smash factor.

Of course by simply adding weight to the driver head with lead tape or whatever you will alter the center of gravity and therefore the launch angle. Raising the launch angle raises the spin loft which is inversely proportional and lowers the smash factor.


I think we're already in agreement here. Also, the "not well thought out 2am response" was in reference to my own posts, not yours.

As for aerodynamics it may be a moot point across big OEMs with expensive wind tunnel test facilities, but it could be a factor when comparing the big OEMs to the component guys.

#28 finalist

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:51 PM

I like a little heavier static weight. Especially with short game clubs. There's nothing worse than playing a round of golf and towards the end of the round my arms sometimes feel a little more primed and stronger from lifting and carry my bag for the past number of holes (walking and carrying my bag). A club that is light will feel way too light and I can feel lost on how to swing it. It happens very easily with short game shots like chips and putts if the clubs are too light. If I ride I don't get that sensation.

Heavier woods feel like I am more in control.
I spy with my little eye something...

#29 JMiller

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:03 PM

I think we are all finally on the same page here.

I think that the lightweight heads have a good potential to be longer then the heaver head. HOWEVER, you still need to control the impact and get the same results as the heaver head.

I am a golfer from hitting light weight clubs hate the feeling, I don't know where the head is in my swing causing inconsistent strikes. A lot of better players prefer heavier heads and shafts for the simple FEEL factor to get consistent strikes on the ball.

That is where lead tape comes in at. To move the CG by a quarter-inch requires no less than the addition of 10 4-inch-long strips of half-inch wide lead tape, all placed in the same area of the head toward which the CG movement is desired. One strip of 4-inch-long strips of half-inch wide lead tape is about one swing weight point. Majority of people can not tell the difference between D0-D1 but can D0-D3. so 3 strips is basically what ends up being needed to make any significant feel change in swing weight.

In my set for Driver I like about D2-3, Fairway D3-4, Hybrid D3-4, Irons D4, Wedges D5-6 that allows me to feel the head in the swing and control it a bit better. Lead tape isn't pretty on club but if it gives you better feel to find better contact well worth it.

Cheers!

KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" (2" Bore Depth) w/ Graphite Design Tour AD DI-7 Stiff
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