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Edit 4/3/12 -- Does lighter really mean longer?


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#16 jmiller065

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:52 PM

It is not my intent to be dissagreeable though the ave. PGA tour pro's smash factor with a driver is 1.49 according to the PGA stats...A nice smash factor table is on the Andrew Rice Golf site..He lists the ave for every club for both the PGA & LPGA players..Google him under "ave. PGA smash factor"....I just have a thing about accuracy when numbers ar used...Fairways & Greens 4ever...


I didn't think you were being 'disagreeable' lol, 1.48 is about right I updated my post for correctness as noted, at least it was in 2004 - 2008 --> http://blog.swingman...ondistances.pdf

Anyways smash factor + ball speed = more distance without a lot of swing speed being increased. Now if you can pull at 1.48 on a 120mph SS you gonna bomb the heck out of it. would go further then a 1.48 at 118mph SS obviously.

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
:srixon-small: Z-Star
 
Favorite Quotes
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course... the space between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#17 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:57 PM

Driver #1	Driver #2
108mph	108mph
114mph	116mph
118mph	117mph
119mph	117mph
118mph	117mph
120mph	117mph
117mph	120mph
119mph	120mph
119mph	117mph
116mph	116mph

This is some data I have been looking at in your sample of SS.

Change between low swing speed and high swing speed
Driver #1 ~ 6mph
Driver #2 ~ 4mph

Total counts for same swing speeds
Driver #1 ~ 114 (1), 116 (1), 117 (1), 118 (2), 119 (3), 120 (1)
Driver #2 ~ 116 (2), 117 (5), 120 (2)

Change in mph from swing to swing
Driver #1 ~ +4 (114 to 118), +1 (118 to 119), -1 (119 to 118), +2 (118 to 120), -3 (120 to 117), +2 (117 to 119), 0 (119 to 119), -3 (119 to 117)
Driver #2 ~ +1 (166 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), 0 (117 to 117), +3 (117 to 120), 0 (120 to 120), -3 (120 to 117), -1 (117 to 116)


Ball Speed translates more into distance then swing speed, obviously if your smash factor on a 120mph SS is a 1 you will lose a lot of ball speed. If the smash factor is a perfect 1.50 smash factor you will get better ball speed with a slower swing speed.

Assuming you have a 100mph SS with a smash factor of 1.40 and a ball speed of 140mph... Then you take a swing and get 98mph SS and a 1.45 smash factor the ball speed increases to 145mph. With everything being equal you get about 2yards more carry from 1mph of ball speed, so the increase from 140 ball speed to 145 would be 10 additional yards swinging 2mph slower.

Tour players get an average of 1.48 (edited for correctness) on smash factor for their drives optimizing their distance by not swinging harder just making great contact with the ball.

If you were selecting a driver I would pick Driver #2 as you get very consistent swing speeds on this club. Use Driver #2 to optimize my conditions to maximize my launch angle, spin rate and get a consistent smash factor around 1.45 even if that means a slightly slower SS.


Interesting way to look at the stats. Because both clubs were going esstentially the same speed, I'm not sure I'm ready to draw any conclusions about which is better. I think in the end it's like what RR said, go with what personally feels best for you. Alternatively, I think Tyk made a great point about lighter clubs, it's not about how hard you hit the first swing, it's about how hard you are swinging after 35 holes.

Two things I did when swinging:

1) No swing thoughts
2) No ball

The reason for #1 is I swing much better without a cluttered mind and with a loose body. The reason for #2 is I didn't want smash factor to be a consideration. By swinging as fast as I could and not factoring in ball distance, I was trying to reduce the amount of variables that could affect the conclusion.

#18 jmiller065

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

1) swing speed doesn't translate into distance exactly at 2.5 yards. It is more about energy transfer to the ball in the swing and ball speed that translates into distance. Thus the smash factor calculation, and max COR under USGA rules of 0.830. You can bust one at 130mph get a 1.30 smash factor

2) weight of the club head has nothing to do if you can swing it after 35 holes, a heaver weighted head will make the shaft flex more then if the lighter weighted head was placed on the same shaft. So the heavier head would give you a little more flex and kick for speed after 35 holes then the lighter one :)

Here is a really good explanation on smash factor --> http://www.planetrut...24/Default.aspx

Basically the lighter club is only worth it if you can get about the same smash factor as the the heaver head, then the 2mph more swing speed would translate into ball speed and more distance.

I have a 165ball speed average at a 112-115 swing speed... so roughly I am getting between 1.4732 and 1.4348 in terms of smash factor of the ball speed stays the same at 165mph. Now If i could keep the 1.4732 and have the 115 that bumps the ball speed to 169mph 4mph extra ball speed ~ 8 more yards of carry

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
:srixon-small: Z-Star
 
Favorite Quotes
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course... the space between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#19 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:05 PM

1) swing speed doesn't translate into distance exactly at 2.5 yards. It is more about energy transfer to the ball in the swing and ball speed that translates into distance. Thus the smash factor calculation, and max COR under USGA rules of 0.830. You can bust one at 130mph get a 1.30 smash factor

Here is a really good explanation on smash factor --> http://www.planetrut...24/Default.aspx

Basically the lighter club is only worth it if you can get about the same smash factor as the the heaver head, then the 2mph more swing speed would translate into ball speed and more distance.

I have a 165ball speed average at a 112-115 swing speed... so roughly I am getting between 1.4732 and 1.4348 in terms of smash factor of the ball speed stays the same at 165mph. Now If i could keep the 1.4732 and have the 115 that bumps the ball speed to 169mph 4mph extra ball speed ~ 8 more yards of carry


I promise I do understand smash factor and why factors into total distance, but whenever you do an experiment, you want to reduce the number of variables as much as possible in order to come to a better conclusion. By assuming a smash factor of 1.5, then swing speed is all that is taken into account. By swinging as fast as I can each time, I'm removing the human element of guessing what an 80% swing is.

There are a few variables I couldn't remove (for now), mainly the swing weights were not the same between the two clubs and the club head shape was not the same.


2) weight of the club head has nothing to do if you can swing it after 35 holes, a heaver weighted head will make the shaft flex more then if the lighter weighted head was placed on the same shaft. So the heavier head would give you a little more flex and kick for speed after 35 holes then the lighter one :)


I'm not sure I completely buy that there is a significant effect when a club head is lighter. Most driver heads weigh 200g, driver #1's head is 190g. 10g at the tip isn't going to do a huge amount to the shaft flex, though as clubs get longer the effect will increase. I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong here though, these are just my assumptions.

But as a simple test, swing a regular hammer a hundred times, then swing a sledge hammer a hundred times and tell me there's no difference :). Going from a 335g club to a 275g club is an 18% weight reduction and could be significant for some people.

#20 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:25 AM

There are so many things here that you are not taking into account like spin, and shaft flex, and the technologies that add kick to the shafts, but there is one thing that is glaring to me and your hammer example really brought it home.


Newton's 2 law of motion says that force = mass x acceleration. So let us say that you have a club that weighs 325 grams and you swing it at 116.65 mph, after you convert so that all the units are right then we find that you have struck that ball with a force of call it 17 newtons or 3.8 pounds of force. Now if you stike the ball at the same speed but the club now weighs 265 grams you have a force of about 14 newtons or 3.14 pounds of force. Now cutting to the chase, in order to hit the ball with the same for with a lighter club you need to swing the club at 143 mph.

So while you may be able to generate more speed with a lighter club, which you have not proven, you can not generate as much force as you can with a club that weighs more.

The fallacy of this arguement is that you strike the ball with the head of the club. If the head weighs the same then it makes sense to lighten the shaft and grip and other weight. Since we are almost there in this arguement, you can effect the swing speed by lightening the arms also. Whether your wear a watch while playing golf or a golf glove or a heavy ring, can affect the swing speed.

OEM's do not try to lower the weight of the head of the club for this reason. They want to make the components light and then weight in different locations to effect ball flight but if you simply make the head lighter to speed up the swing speed you are making a grave error.

I went back through here and tried to glean what part of the club was lighter and it looked as if you did not say what was lighter, just overall club weight.

Arm length is also a determining factor. While we can not alter that, just look at Michelle Wie and Bubba Watson. They have long and skinny arms. Since the pivot point is the spine than they have an advantage. At my club we have two guys that are 6'10" tall. They both bomb the ball because when you add the drive length to they arm length they generate huge club head speed. Both of them use belly putters but they use them like standard putter.

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Driver -   :nike-small:Ccvert Tour / MRC  Kuro Kage Black / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Fairway Metals - :titelist-small: 980F 13 & 17*  / Project X  PXV / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Hybrid -  :benhogan-small:  CFT 21&24* / Project X  PXV  / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:  MP 53 5 iron/ KBS C Taper Lite/ Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

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Putter -   :cameron-small:  Coronado with BestGrip Major Leaguer Leather Putter Grip

Balls -    :titelist-small:  Pro V1x or :taylormade-small:  Project a or Tour Preferred
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#21 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:24 AM

There are so many things here that you are not taking into account like spin, and shaft flex, and the technologies that add kick to the shafts, but there is one thing that is glaring to me and your hammer example really brought it home.


Newton's 2 law of motion says that force = mass x acceleration. So let us say that you have a club that weighs 325 grams and you swing it at 116.65 mph, after you convert so that all the units are right then we find that you have struck that ball with a force of call it 17 newtons or 3.8 pounds of force. Now if you stike the ball at the same speed but the club now weighs 265 grams you have a force of about 14 newtons or 3.14 pounds of force. Now cutting to the chase, in order to hit the ball with the same for with a lighter club you need to swing the club at 143 mph.

So while you may be able to generate more speed with a lighter club, which you have not proven, you can not generate as much force as you can with a club that weighs more.

The fallacy of this arguement is that you strike the ball with the head of the club. If the head weighs the same then it makes sense to lighten the shaft and grip and other weight. Since we are almost there in this arguement, you can effect the swing speed by lightening the arms also. Whether your wear a watch while playing golf or a golf glove or a heavy ring, can affect the swing speed.

OEM's do not try to lower the weight of the head of the club for this reason. They want to make the components light and then weight in different locations to effect ball flight but if you simply make the head lighter to speed up the swing speed you are making a grave error.

I went back through here and tried to glean what part of the club was lighter and it looked as if you did not say what was lighter, just overall club weight.

Arm length is also a determining factor. While we can not alter that, just look at Michelle Wie and Bubba Watson. They have long and skinny arms. Since the pivot point is the spine than they have an advantage. At my club we have two guys that are 6'10" tall. They both bomb the ball because when you add the drive length to they arm length they generate huge club head speed. Both of them use belly putters but they use them like standard putter.


Yes, arm length, weight on the hands, spin, shaft flex, etc will affect overall distance, but the argument for lighter clubs is that they can be swung faster and therefore generate greater speed.

I think you did hit on a possible major flaw in my tests though. The head of driver #1 is 190g and the head of driver #2 is 200g. Thus the drag coefficient is going to affect driver #1 more than driver #2. This could explain why the swing speeds were so similar. Unfortunately, I don't have another shaft I can swap into my R11s to make a more accurate test.

I did look around at various lightweight clubs. The Cleveland 270 has a 39g shaft and a 25g grip, so it still has a 200g head. I also looked at the Tour Edge XGC-4, TM Superfast 2.0, and Adams Speedline Ultralight. All have 200g heads. The only heads I could find that went lower than 200g were the Acer Leggera, Maltby BM3 (if you swap out the weight), and Wishon 739 CCG.

#22 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:41 AM

Yes, arm length, weight on the hands, spin, shaft flex, etc will affect overall distance, but the argument for lighter clubs is that they can be swung faster and therefore generate greater speed.

I think you did hit on a major flaw in my tests though. The head of driver #1 is 190g and the head of driver #2 is 200g. Thus the drag coefficient is going to affect driver #1 more than driver #2. This could easily explain why the swing speeds were so similar. Unfortunately, I don't have another shaft I can swap into my R11s to make a more accurate test.

I did look around at various lightweight clubs. The Cleveland 270 has a 39g shaft and a 25g grip, so it still has a 200g head. I also looked at the Tour Edge XGC-4, TM Superfast 2.0, and Adams Speedline Ultralight. All have 200g heads. The only heads I could find that went lower than 200g were the Acer Leggera and Maltby BM3 if you swap out the weight.


But that is the point of my arguement. You do not want or probably can not find a head lighter than 200 grams. Now with these number plugged into my arguement, I do everything on a spreadsheet because I am lazy and do not want to have to constantly punch in number in a calculator.

Your 116.65 swing speed with a 200 gram head means you hit with a 10.4 newton force. To get the same force with a 190 gram head you have to have a swing speed of 123 mph.

Also drag would be more affected by the aerodynamics of the club than the weight.

Now I do not know if changing the swing weight has the same effect as changing the overall weight. I would think a heavier head would swing faster.

I think this fixation on swing speed is misplaced. I can swing really fast. I can hit the ball 350 yards everytime. 200 yards down the fairway and 150 yards right of the fairway. It makes no difference how far you hit the ball. It only matters how far off line you hit the ball.

Instinct Putting

2012 KBS Shaft Review

In my
:taylormade-small: golf bag today.
 

Driver -   :nike-small:Ccvert Tour / MRC  Kuro Kage Black / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Fairway Metals - :titelist-small: 980F 13 & 17*  / Project X  PXV / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Hybrid -  :benhogan-small:  CFT 21&24* / Project X  PXV  / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:  MP 53 5 iron/ KBS C Taper Lite/ Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:   MP68 6-P / KBS C Taper Lite / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips
Wedge- :vokey-small: Series 200 Oil Can 52 & 60* / Dynameic Gold  Wedge Leather Wrap Grips

Putter -   :cameron-small:  Coronado with BestGrip Major Leaguer Leather Putter Grip

Balls -    :titelist-small:  Pro V1x or :taylormade-small:  Project a or Tour Preferred
Shoes -   :footjoy-small:  M Project

post-14368-079422000%201371736688.jpg


#23 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

But that is the point of my arguement. You do not want or probably can not find a head lighter than 200 grams. Now with these number plugged into my arguement, I do everything on a spreadsheet because I am lazy and do not want to have to constantly punch in number in a calculator.


But I did find a head lighter than 200g. For me, if the ultimate discovery in this thread is don't use sub 200g heads, then that's something new I've learned.

Your 116.65 swing speed with a 200 gram head means you hit with a 10.4 newton force. To get the same force with a 190 gram head you have to have a swing speed of 123 mph.


The opposite to this argument is how much force it takes to get the club head to 116.65 mph? A lighter club head would require less force, no? Therefore I should be swinging the lighter clubhead faster...

Also drag would be more affected by the aerodynamics of the club than the weight.


Yes and no. Both clubs have titanium faces that are mostly flat, slightly convex. I'm not going to try to make any assumptions about aerodynamics, but any driver has face that is inherently not very aerodynamic.


Now I do not know if changing the swing weight has the same effect as changing the overall weight. I would think a heavier head would swing faster.

I think this fixation on swing speed is misplaced. I can swing really fast. I can hit the ball 350 yards everytime. 200 yards down the fairway and 150 yards right of the fairway. It makes no difference how far you hit the ball. It only matters how far off line you hit the ball.


The reason for the fixation on swing speed is that all lightweight clubs are promoted as easier to swing faster. The question is if I swing two drivers, hit the ball perfectly in the center of the clubface with the same degree of draw/fade, will the lighter club be faster (and therefore longer?). The only way to answer this question is to keep all other variables constant.

#24 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:57 AM

As I pointed out as far as the 10 gram lighter head goes you have to hit it almost 6 mph faster to generate as much force according to issac newton. You have not demonstrated that you can actually swing a club head that is lighter faster. You had a much greater variation between swings with the same club than you did with different clubs. Also by having a heavier head you have more effect of gravity helping with the down swing.
As far as aerodynamics goes the club faces are pretty much the same so the aero effect comes from the back of the club. Notice on some 18 wheelers now the have a tapered fin section on the back which reduces the drag by the wind. Since 1995 or so the bed of Chevrolet pickups is two inches narrower at the back than the front and it is more fuel efficient to drive with the tailgate up than down. The callaway razr fit has a little fin on the back for aero purposes SUVs have a fin on the back for aero. There are so many things that are done for aero that are subtle and mostly unnoticed. I am not convinced that have any effect on the golf club but when my razr fit arrives some year I will be able to answer that better.
Hogan fairway woods (wooden woods) back in the 80's had a "speed slot" for aero.
If the club is lighter in theory you can swing it faster. But if the head is lighter you must swing it much faster to even maintain the same force applied to the ball.

Instinct Putting

2012 KBS Shaft Review

In my
:taylormade-small: golf bag today.
 

Driver -   :nike-small:Ccvert Tour / MRC  Kuro Kage Black / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Fairway Metals - :titelist-small: 980F 13 & 17*  / Project X  PXV / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Hybrid -  :benhogan-small:  CFT 21&24* / Project X  PXV  / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:  MP 53 5 iron/ KBS C Taper Lite/ Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:   MP68 6-P / KBS C Taper Lite / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips
Wedge- :vokey-small: Series 200 Oil Can 52 & 60* / Dynameic Gold  Wedge Leather Wrap Grips

Putter -   :cameron-small:  Coronado with BestGrip Major Leaguer Leather Putter Grip

Balls -    :titelist-small:  Pro V1x or :taylormade-small:  Project a or Tour Preferred
Shoes -   :footjoy-small:  M Project

post-14368-079422000%201371736688.jpg


#25 jmiller065

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:05 PM

You don't need to consider aerodynamics when talking about how weight attached to the shaft will effect flex. Place a shaft into a Frequency machine, stick a 210gram weight on the tip of the shaft then get the frequency reading for that shaft and 210grams of weight. Then remove the 210gram weight and attach ha 190gram weight in the same fashion then get the reading from the machine for that weight. The 210grams will frequency lower then the 190grams meaning that the shaft plays softer in the 210grams then the 190grams. Majority of frequency machines come with a ASTM standard 205 tip weight included for measuring raw shafts. Frequency changes if you move up or down from the 205gram tip weight.


Back to the topic 'is light longer' that answer is simple, they only go longer when the smash factor is equal. For a lot of better players they find it easier to control the face by feel with a heavier head and thus providing a more consistent swing speed and smash factor. Average swing speed is completely misleading, it is more about your consistent swing speed in a set, call it the normal tempo and swing speed that produces the best results.

I provided data that showed you were more all over the map on Driver #1 finding you most frequent swing speed (consistent normal swing speed) of 118-119 only 50% of the time. On Driver #2 the fluctuation were less apparent and more consistent by 20% over Driver #1 finding 117-118 (consistent normal swing speed) a total of 70% of the time for the 10 swing sample that you provided.

The threshold for Driver #1 to at least match Driver #2 in terms of distance, Assuming a swing speed of 116.5 and smash factor of 1.45 this gives us a ball speed of 168.925.

Driver #1 needs to have at least a 1.4255 smash to match the Driver #2 at least 70% of your swings other wise for your normal swing Driver #2 will produce more consistent better results.

You would need to find the 1.45 at least 70% of the time (the percentage you have your normal swing speed for Driver #2) to make the driver #1 longer for your average consistent swing speed, if you did then the ball speed is increased to 171.825.

171.825 - 168.925 = 2.9mph extra ball speed if you can get the 1.45 smash the same percentage as the heavier driver. Assuming that 1mph ball speed = 2 yards carry then you are looking at 5.8 additional yards!!!


Removing spin and some other factors on distance just translating ball speed at 2yards per 1mph with the ball speeds listed above (this obviously is not the case in real life thanks ot wind drag and spin on the ball.

50% of your swing will go 343.65 with Driver #1
70% of your Drives will go 337.85 with Driver #2

now what happens on the 50% you are off on tempo swinging slower of faster on Driver #1...
If you do not get at least 1.4255 20% of the time then you start losing distance to Driver #2 for the 20% it will find you average smash factor.

The reaming 30% is mostly about the average smash factor and threshold where Driver #1 is longer then Driver #2 just like it was for when you found the tempo perfectly to replicate the swing speed on Driver #2. because the changes were only 2mph on Driver #2 rather then I think 4mph on Driver #1 I would have to assume you will get a higher smash factor more often on Driver #2 then Driver #1

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
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"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
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The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#26 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

As I pointed out as far as the 10 gram lighter head goes you have to hit it almost 6 mph faster to generate as much force according to issac newton. You have not demonstrated that you can actually swing a club head that is lighter faster. You had a much greater variation between swings with the same club than you did with different clubs. Also by having a heavier head you have more effect of gravity helping with the down swing.
As far as aerodynamics goes the club faces are pretty much the same so the aero effect comes from the back of the club. Notice on some 18 wheelers now the have a tapered fin section on the back which reduces the drag by the wind. Since 1995 or so the bed of Chevrolet pickups is two inches narrower at the back than the front and it is more fuel efficient to drive with the tailgate up than down. The callaway razr fit has a little fin on the back for aero purposes SUVs have a fin on the back for aero. There are so many things that are done for aero that are subtle and mostly unnoticed. I am not convinced that have any effect on the golf club but when my razr fit arrives some year I will be able to answer that better.
Hogan fairway woods (wooden woods) back in the 80's had a "speed slot" for aero.
If the club is lighter in theory you can swing it faster. But if the head is lighter you must swing it much faster to even maintain the same force applied to the ball.


The more I think about it, the more I think the lack of difference in speed must be due to aerodynamics between the two club heads. 2am responses on the forum don't always lead to most well thought out posts :). Mainly I think this because if you stick your hand out of a moving car at 70mph, the slightest movements increases/decreases drag significantly. At 116mph, it's even more pronounced, not that I've ever driven that fast, as least not with the windows open...

I *could* do a test where I remove the weights from my driver to see if removing 10g will add 6mph to my swing speed to test this, but I'm not sure I want to constantly screw and unscrew the weights...

#27 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

You don't need to consider aerodynamics when talking about how weight attached to the shaft will effect flex. Place a shaft into a Frequency machine, stick a 210gram weight on the tip of the shaft then get the frequency reading for that shaft and 210grams of weight. Then remove the 210gram weight and attach ha 190gram weight in the same fashion then get the reading from the machine for that weight. The 210grams will frequency lower then the 190grams meaning that the shaft plays softer in the 210grams then the 190grams. Majority of frequency machines come with a ASTM standard 205 tip weight included for measuring raw shafts. Frequency changes if you move up or down from the 205gram tip weight.


Very good points and something I hadn't thought of.


Back to the topic 'is light longer' that answer is simple, they only go longer when the smash factor is equal. For a lot of better players they find it easier to control the face by feel with a heavier head and thus providing a more consistent swing speed and smash factor. Average swing speed is completely misleading, it is more about your consistent swing speed in a set, call it the normal tempo and swing speed that produces the best results.

I provided data that showed you were more all over the map on Driver #1 finding you most frequent swing speed (consistent normal swing speed) of 118-119 only 50% of the time. On Driver #2 the fluctuation were less apparent and more consistent by 20% over Driver #1 finding 117-118 (consistent normal swing speed) a total of 70% of the time for the 10 swing sample that you provided.

The threshold for Driver #1 to at least match Driver #2 in terms of distance, Assuming a swing speed of 116.5 and smash factor of 1.45 this gives us a ball speed of 168.925.

Driver #1 needs to have at least a 1.4255 smash to match the Driver #2 at least 70% of your swings other wise for your normal swing Driver #2 will produce more consistent better results.

You would need to find the 1.45 at least 70% of the time (the percentage you have your normal swing speed for Driver #2) to make the driver #1 longer for your average consistent swing speed, if you did then the ball speed is increased to 171.825.

171.825 - 168.925 = 2.9mph extra ball speed if you can get the 1.45 smash the same percentage as the heavier driver. Assuming that 1mph ball speed = 2 yards carry then you are looking at 5.8 additional yards!!!


Removing spin and some other factors on distance just translating ball speed at 2yards per 1mph with the ball speeds listed above (this obviously is not the case in real life thanks ot wind drag and spin on the ball.

50% of your swing will go 343.65 with Driver #1
70% of your Drives will go 337.85 with Driver #2

now what happens on the 50% you are off on tempo swinging slower of faster on Driver #1...
If you do not get at least 1.4255 20% of the time then you start losing distance to Driver #2 for the 20% it will find you average smash factor.

The reaming 30% is mostly about the average smash factor and threshold where Driver #1 is longer then Driver #2 just like it was for when you found the tempo perfectly to replicate the swing speed on Driver #2. because the changes were only 2mph on Driver #2 rather then I think 4mph on Driver #1 I would have to assume you will get a higher smash factor more often on Driver #2 then Driver #1


Boy I wish 70% of my drives went 337.85 yard :D

I wouldn't be surprised if average smash factor was higher on Driver #2, but it's something I don't have the tools to test. Would love to see a MGS Labs article on the subject that considers all these factors.

#28 RoverRick

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:20 PM

My point in the "not well thought out 2 am response" was that since you can not change the shape of the face or front profile of the club without affecting the performance you were left with changing the body and rear of the club. This is what Callaway did with the Razr Fit. This sounds great, and Adams Speedline touts an aerodynamic shape but I do not expect to see any significant difference because of aerodynamics.

I believe that the whole aerodynamic thing is a marketing gimmick. I believe they actually did it, I just do not believe that there were "significant" improvements because of this in the golf club arena

You could measure the effect of aero by using a smaller head (3 or 5 wood) on a driver shaft.

Removing the weights from your driver would also give you a true apples to apples test, taking out the aero and some other variables.

jmiller provided a formula for smash factor that reiterated my main point. Clubhead mass is directly proportional to the smash factor.

Posted Image

So as I stated you will have to increase your speed by 6 mph to make up for 10 grams of clubhead weight. I think the better test would be to add weight to the head. Even if you are swinging a little slower but use a heavier clubhead you get more force with the heavier head. Running the numbers, if you have a 190 gram head than you get the same force into the ball swinging at 123 mph as a 200 g head at 116 and a 210 g head at 111 and a 225g head at 104.

Using this Smash Factor formula and 10 as the spin loft. These same heads get the following smash factor. 190=1.45 200=1.464 210=1.478 and 225=1.495

So this validates my point that by going lighter you have to increase speed a lot in order maintain the same smash factor.

Of course by simply adding weight to the driver head with lead tape or whatever you will alter the center of gravity and therefore the launch angle. Raising the launch angle raises the spin loft which is inversely proportional and lowers the smash factor.

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In my
:taylormade-small: golf bag today.
 

Driver -   :nike-small:Ccvert Tour / MRC  Kuro Kage Black / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Fairway Metals - :titelist-small: 980F 13 & 17*  / Project X  PXV / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Hybrid -  :benhogan-small:  CFT 21&24* / Project X  PXV  / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:  MP 53 5 iron/ KBS C Taper Lite/ Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips

Irons -  :mizuno-small:   MP68 6-P / KBS C Taper Lite / Best Grips Micro Perforated Leather Grips
Wedge- :vokey-small: Series 200 Oil Can 52 & 60* / Dynameic Gold  Wedge Leather Wrap Grips

Putter -   :cameron-small:  Coronado with BestGrip Major Leaguer Leather Putter Grip

Balls -    :titelist-small:  Pro V1x or :taylormade-small:  Project a or Tour Preferred
Shoes -   :footjoy-small:  M Project

post-14368-079422000%201371736688.jpg


#29 GolfSpy WD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

My point in the "not well thought out 2 am response" was that since you can not change the shape of the face or front profile of the club without affecting the performance you were left with changing the body and rear of the club. This is what Callaway did with the Razr Fit. This sounds great, and Adams Speedline touts an aerodynamic shape but I do not expect to see any significant difference because of aerodynamics.

I believe that the whole aerodynamic thing is a marketing gimmick. I believe they actually did it, I just do not believe that there were "significant" improvements because of this in the golf club arena

You could measure the effect of aero by using a smaller head (3 or 5 wood) on a driver shaft.

Removing the weights from your driver would also give you a true apples to apples test, taking out the aero and some other variables.

jmiller provided a formula for smash factor that reiterated my main point. Clubhead mass is directly proportional to the smash factor.

Posted Image

So as I stated you will have to increase your speed by 6 mph to make up for 10 grams of clubhead weight. I think the better test would be to add weight to the head. Even if you are swinging a little slower but use a heavier clubhead you get more force with the heavier head. Running the numbers, if you have a 190 gram head than you get the same force into the ball swinging at 123 mph as a 200 g head at 116 and a 210 g head at 111 and a 225g head at 104.

Using this Smash Factor formula and 10 as the spin loft. These same heads get the following smash factor. 190=1.45 200=1.464 210=1.478 and 225=1.495

So this validates my point that by going lighter you have to increase speed a lot in order maintain the same smash factor.

Of course by simply adding weight to the driver head with lead tape or whatever you will alter the center of gravity and therefore the launch angle. Raising the launch angle raises the spin loft which is inversely proportional and lowers the smash factor.


I think we're already in agreement here. Also, the "not well thought out 2am response" was in reference to my own posts, not yours.

As for aerodynamics it may be a moot point across big OEMs with expensive wind tunnel test facilities, but it could be a factor when comparing the big OEMs to the component guys.

#30 finalist

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:51 PM

I like a little heavier static weight. Especially with short game clubs. There's nothing worse than playing a round of golf and towards the end of the round my arms sometimes feel a little more primed and stronger from lifting and carry my bag for the past number of holes (walking and carrying my bag). A club that is light will feel way too light and I can feel lost on how to swing it. It happens very easily with short game shots like chips and putts if the clubs are too light. If I ride I don't get that sensation.

Heavier woods feel like I am more in control.
I spy with my little eye something...




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