[Manavs]

sactown, on 18 March 2010 - 01:16 AM, said:

This is cool, thanks a bunch. That magazine had all kinds of cool stuff. Accidentally went to page 41 first and read that high intensity cardio goes after muscle not fat after the carbs are gone. Not very intuitive.
I feel like I am about kindergarten with this stuff, but it is fascinating. The tie in with human genome project and gene expression just makes it better for me. If I understand the chemistry, I am more likely to believe in it and do it.

I see what you mean about protein from food not having enough BCAA's to reach the required level. The post below mine (maybe above this one) mentioned specific powders and supplements. At 220 and 21% body fat, how much am I looking at needing and does the supplement vary on gym days vs. non gym days?

My pleasure sactown -

Little tid bits like the cardio are very cool. But always think of the body in terms of a matrix and not linear. For example, if your doing a ketogenic diet where your eating moderate fats and low carbs, your body will convert only what it needs into glucose and no more. for that type of diet you need a low intensity. but if your eating moderate carbs as your fuel source and low fats then you will benefit from high intensity cardio to burn off any excess carbs so they dont store fat.

its a big mathematical equation where all the variables are somehow tied into eachother. think xmas lights, one goes out they all get affected.

i'd put you still at the 3scoop (21g) mark per. its only going to make you leaner and keep you more anabolic(growing). keep it the same on gym days and non - as your body mass is still the same on both days. you are feeding the lean mass, not the energy output levels.(thats dietary carbs and/or fat)

[GolfSpy Dave]

I have one other sort of body/fitness question to bounce off you...
For about two weeks now, I have stopped drinking coffee during the day and substituted bottled water.
I still drink 2 cups in the morning, but the two that I typically drank during the day are gone.

What is weird is that my energy is much better and more level. Fewer lows, as a bar, typically Atkins type of Cliff's Builder bar will take care of the low.
Can I attribute this all to better hydration by removing the diuretic in caffeine and boosting water intake, or is there another body system involved?

[Manavs]

sactown, on 18 March 2010 - 02:17 AM, said:

I have one other sort of body/fitness question to bounce off you...
For about two weeks now, I have stopped drinking coffee during the day and substituted bottled water.
I still drink 2 cups in the morning, but the two that I typically drank during the day are gone.

What is weird is that my energy is much better and more level. Fewer lows, as a bar, typically Atkins type of Cliff's Builder bar will take care of the low.
Can I attribute this all to better hydration by removing the diuretic in caffeine and boosting water intake, or is there another body system involved?

im a big fan of caffeine used properly. there is a caffeine crash that some experience. sounds like by removing the afternoon coffee's plus water increase has obviously worked for you. i'm not a doctor and nor do i play one on tv - so your second part of that question may have an adrenal response -

I found some interesting half life things on wikipedia that help you find your why - if its in your system for 5 hours, then the additional cups later in the day could be keeping you awake or at least not sleeping as well, therefore, your not as refreshed and struggling the next day with energy and repeating the same cycle. again just a thought -

Metabolism and half-life

Caffeine is metabolized in the liver into three primary metabolites: paraxanthine (84%), theobromine (12%), and theophylline (4%)
Caffeine from coffee or other beverages is absorbed by the stomach and small intestine within 45 minutes of ingestion and then distributed throughout all tissues of the body.[45] It is eliminated by first-order kinetics.[46] Caffeine can also be ingested rectally, evidenced by the formulation of suppositories of ergotamine tartrate and caffeine (for the relief of migraine)[47] and chlorobutanol and caffeine (for the treatment of hyperemesis).[48]
The half-life of caffeine —the time required for the body to eliminate one-half of the total amount of caffeine — varies widely among individuals according to such factors as age, liver function, pregnancy, some concurrent medications, and the level of enzymes in the liver needed for caffeine metabolism. In healthy adults, caffeine's half-life is approximately 4.9 hours. In women taking oral contraceptives, this is increased to 5–10 hours,[49] and in pregnant women the half-life is roughly 9–11 hours.[50] Caffeine can accumulate in individuals with severe liver disease, increasing its half-life up to 96 hours.[51] In infants and young children, the half-life may be longer than in adults; half-life in a newborn baby may be as long as 30 hours. Other factors such as smoking can shorten caffeine's half-life.[52] Fluvoxamine reduced the clearance of caffeine by 91.3%, and prolonged its elimination half-life by 11.4-fold (from 4.9 hours to 56 hours).[53]
Caffeine is metabolized in the liver by the cytochrome P450 oxidase enzyme system (to be specific, the 1A2 isozyme) into three metabolic dimethylxanthines,[54] each of which having its own effects on the body:
Paraxanthine (84%): Has the effect of increasing lipolysis, leading to elevated glycerol and free fatty acid levels in the blood plasma.
Theobromine (12%): Dilates blood vessels and increases urine volume. Theobromine is also the principal alkaloid in the cocoa bean, and therefore chocolate.
Theophylline (4%): Relaxes smooth muscles of the bronchi, and is used to treat asthma. The therapeutic dose of theophylline, however, is many times greater than the levels attained from caffeine metabolism.
Each of these metabolites is further metabolized and then excreted in the urine.

[GolfSpy Dave]

Yet again good info
No idea about caffeine half life. Never thought of it that way. First ingestion at 6am and then second at 930 puts me within the first decay. Another cup at 230 is still close to the second one. No problem sleeping, but was prone to the cat nap. No quick nap since dropping supplemental coffee.

Didn't really need to know that I can get caffeine in rectal delivery form though...

[caddyjoe77]

Manavs, on 17 March 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

dammit thats above my paygrade. but lemme do some math -

insert another math warning here

lets put it this way - the common suggestion is to put 6-8 scoops of BCAA's in a gallon and drink it throughout the day. 10 for a really huge guy, and 6 for a my female competitors. if you dont want to carry a gallon jug, i say at least drink a serving during training and in the middle of the night to prevent catabolism, additionally have one in between meals.

each scoop has 7 grams of a 2:1:1 mix of BCAA's - so if my math is correct thats -

3,500mg of Leucine
1,750mg of Isoleucine
and 1,750mg of Valine
per scoop

your second question yes - the serving recommendation is by bodyweight as the more lean muscle you have the greater the demand for BCAA's

1 scoop <150lbs
2 scoops 150-200lbs
3 scoops >200lbs

so your numbers would be more along
10,500mg of Leucine
5,250mg of Isoleucine
and 5,250mg of Valine
per dose

thats some pretty serious muscle building aminos as long as your using forms of aminos that are bioavailable (that should keep you from asking math questions j/k LOL)

I was checking out the chained BCAA stack...looks really impressive and i am going to get some. Ok, so im wondering that once i reach my goal which is 205....i was there once and looked great.....so thats my goal and if i get below that i will be happy. So...even when i drop the weight...read fat deposits lol....continue with the 3 scoops. The way i figure it, and i could be wrong, but the lighter one gets, then i would need to continue intaking that much as to not get catabolic and turn it to fat correct? Something along those lines?

Math?? I love math!!....im getting my minor in it lol. So you mean arganine? as in: "L-Arginine L-Malate is a excellent form of arginine which designed to pump blood to your muscles,improve nutrient delivery to muscle cells,and create & sustain"pumps""....from http://www.honestjoy...20DL-Malate.htm

BTW, i have implemented your recommendations with the egg whites and the protein in the afternoon. I dont feel as worn out at the end of a work out now....you know the burned out dead muscle feeling...but its a good feeling.

So here is my analytical minded nerd thought: Most folks say your body cannot absorb more than 20 ish grams of protein in one serving....so thereby taking BCAA's are you actually tricking your body into being able to absorb more protein? Which makes more muscle mass and burns more fatty deposits as long as you stay anabolic and not catabolic?

thanks again for your help

Joe

[Manavs]

caddyjoe77, on 18 March 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

I was checking out the chained BCAA stack...looks really impressive and i am going to get some. Ok, so im wondering that once i reach my goal which is 205....i was there once and looked great.....so thats my goal and if i get below that i will be happy. So...even when i drop the weight...read fat deposits lol....continue with the 3 scoops. The way i figure it, and i could be wrong, but the lighter one gets, then i would need to continue intaking that much as to not get catabolic and turn it to fat correct? Something along those lines?

Math?? I love math!!....im getting my minor in it lol. So you mean arganine? as in: "L-Arginine L-Malate is a excellent form of arginine which designed to pump blood to your muscles,improve nutrient delivery to muscle cells,and create & sustain"pumps""....from http://www.honestjoy...20DL-Malate.htm

BTW, i have implemented your recommendations with the egg whites and the protein in the afternoon. I dont feel as worn out at the end of a work out now....you know the burned out dead muscle feeling...but its a good feeling.

So here is my analytical minded nerd thought: Most folks say your body cannot absorb more than 20 ish grams of protein in one serving....so thereby taking BCAA's are you actually tricking your body into being able to absorb more protein? Which makes more muscle mass and burns more fatty deposits as long as you stay anabolic and not catabolic?

thanks again for your help

Joe

No worries Joe, anything i can do for this forum -

Here's the thing, the idea is to maintain or increase lean mass and lose body fat. Your goal of 205 is a little misleading because it is the total of both lean mass and fat (plus bones). So depending how fat you actually are now - you did say 21% at 220 - so roughly 48.4 lbs of fat putting you at 171.6 lbs of lean mass - give or take - call it 5lbs.

I'm willing to say that a better goal would be to increase your lean muscle mass to 180lbs lowering your BF to 25lbs and putting you at the magical 205#. that would have your BF at ~13.8%.

I neglected to do this math at the onset of the prior post and apologize. but as they say in the NFL - upon further review, 2 scoops for your lean mass would be a more appropriate dose - then again bodybuilders tend to overdo things and use big overflowing scoops. in this case would not hurt and def help.

Good to hear on the egg whites and protein - well done!

re: protein intake - they are right and they are also wrong. the studies don't take into consideration the actual lean mass which is what in the end creates the demand - lets use yourself, 220# 21%bf the RDA protein intake for you is the same for a 220lbs bodybuilder with 2%bf? cmon it doesnt make sense. the empirical data behind the supplementation of 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight for normal humans - 1.5g for athletes and 2.0g for BB's works! the problem is in the actual food, to build muscle you need copious amounts of food because of all the waste (reads catabolic) materials found in the food. If you were to design a perfect protein for humans - you would get zero waste and literally your excrement would not stink. (we happen to be in the process of making this product for the past 10 years)

but if you were to turn on the anabolic signal via the branch chains - YES that would get the process going and making your body more ready to accept the food. Thats why i take a serving of BCAA's 15 mins before i eat. Anabolism builds and catabolism destroys. BCAA's are anabolic, and anti-catabolic by nature.

MM

[caddyjoe77]

HI Michael

actually it was 239..so probably more like somewhere around 28 percent. I dont have calipers to give an accurate test, but i can tell you that if i measure with a sewing tape around my bellybutton its 39.5 and my neck is 16.5....I know that is not the best way to measure but that should be a rough idea. Yes, i got really fat over the last 6 months when i wasnt allowed to do anything but eat and drink...which included beers...far too many. Regardless i am making the change necessary.

thats the reason that i figured my goal should be at around 200. I will google later to see what formula you are actually using to figure out the bone structure and fat vs muscle. right now i have to get to work....

[Manavs]

caddyjoe77, on 19 March 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

HI Michael

actually it was 239..so probably more like somewhere around 28 percent. I dont have calipers to give an accurate test, but i can tell you that if i measure with a sewing tape around my bellybutton its 39.5 and my neck is 16.5....I know that is not the best way to measure but that should be a rough idea. Yes, i got really fat over the last 6 months when i wasnt allowed to do anything but eat and drink...which included beers...far too many. Regardless i am making the change necessary.

thats the reason that i figured my goal should be at around 200. I will google later to see what formula you are actually using to figure out the bone structure and fat vs muscle. right now i have to get to work....

Personally, I wouldnt worry about bodyfat calipers, tape measures or even the scale for that matter. i use them all as tools but really its the mirror that will tell you everything you need to know - are you where you want to be - if not make the necessary adjustments to one of the variables. (btw the DEXA is the only true accurate way to measure BF).

Best
Michael

[NGage]

Ok....my brain hurts from reading all that.


How about a simple and quick recommendation for pre and post workout shakes?

[Manavs]

NGage, on 20 March 2010 - 06:08 PM, said:

Ok....my brain hurts from reading all that.


How about a simple and quick recommendation for pre and post workout shakes?

My most humblest of apologize NGage.


Quick answer - Pre- An whey protein isolate shake with waxy maize starch and a tablespoon of peanut butter.

Post - same minus the peanut butter

Long winded answer -

I'd rather eat a light protein like egg whites with oatmeal 90mins before working out, then have a pre workout NO drink . Drink my BCAA's during the workout. Followed by another serving of BCAA's post with waxy maize starch immediately post. 20mins later have chicken and rice.

I have found alot of research in the last few months taking me away from shakes and using more amino acids and real foods.

[GolfSpy Matt]

Manavs, on 20 March 2010 - 05:14 PM, said:

My most humblest of apologize NGage.


Quick answer - Pre- An whey protein isolate shake with waxy maize starch and a tablespoon of peanut butter.

Post - same minus the peanut butter

Long winded answer -

I'd rather eat a light protein like egg whites with oatmeal 90mins before working out, then have a pre workout NO drink. Drink my BCAA's during the workout. Followed by another serving of BCAA's post with waxy maize starch immediately post. 20mins later have chicken and rice.

I have found alot of research in the last few months taking me away from shakes and using more amino acids and real foods.

Stupid question alert: How do you get amino acids other than shakes and food?

[caddyjoe77]

i would have to guess through a supplement. I am ordering some "chained" If you go to bodybuilding.com etc...you can get a lot of choices from just typing in BCAA's into the search.

hope that helps

[NGage]

Manavs, on 20 March 2010 - 05:14 PM, said:

My most humblest of apologize NGage.


Quick answer - Pre- An whey protein isolate shake with waxy maize starch and a tablespoon of peanut butter.

Post - same minus the peanut butter

Long winded answer -

I'd rather eat a light protein like egg whites with oatmeal 90mins before working out, then have a pre workout NO drink like WTF. Drink my BCAA's during the workout. Followed by another serving of BCAA's post with waxy maize starch immediately post. 20mins later have chicken and rice.

I have found alot of research in the last few months taking me away from shakes and using more amino acids and real foods.

I got the friendly apology...then it went to "blah, blah, blah and a tablespoon of peanut butter.....post - same minus the peanut butter". Then...something about egg whites and oatmeal with more science-y recipe stuff.

How about a direct link to some pics of product?
(but you can skip pics of egg whites and oatmeal )

[Manavs]

MSaternus, on 20 March 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:

Stupid question alert: How do you get amino acids other than shakes and food?

Shakes, Food, Intravenously, or supplementation. But be warned amino acids by themselves taste horrible!!!! Thats why most products have sugar in them to mask it.

caddyjoe77, on 20 March 2010 - 09:37 PM, said:

i would have to guess through a supplement. I am ordering some "chained" If you go to bodybuilding.com etc...you can get a lot of choices from just typing in BCAA's into the search.

hope that helps

a1supplements.com is where i order stuff online, or you can shoot me a pm.

NGage, on 20 March 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

I got the friendly apology...then it went to "blah, blah, blah and a tablespoon of peanut butter.....post - same minus the peanut butter". Then...something about egg whites and oatmeal with more science-y recipe stuff.

How about a direct link to some pics of product?
(but you can skip pics of egg whites and oatmeal )

Waxy Maize Starch - fast carb pre and/or post


Whey Protein Isolate - Pre and/or Post



All natural no sodium peanut butter - NO SKIPPY!

[NGage]

Thanks....like an idiot, I'll take those pics to the store and look for those in person.