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Swingweight, How could I have been so wrong?


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#1 RoverRick

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:52 AM

Anyone who every played a set of Hogan irons will know that Hogan used light weight shaft because Mr. Hogan thought it was important to feel the head during the swing. Therefore, as I understand swingweight, they have a higher swingweight. I have for the most part always played or adjusted them so that they had a higher swingweight. I thought I played better with a higher swingweight. I subscribed to the theory that you could feel the head better.

I added the C Taper X Stiff shafts to my irons, and the swingweight was totally different. I added 92 grams of masking tape under the grips on my wedge yesterday. The purpose of this was to make the grip bigger. I only calculated the weight later on because I could really feel the difference.. So I took this out on the course yesterday and found that the swingweight was totally different. The C Taper is balanced different anyway, but with this tape, and a shaft that is almost 40 grams more than I had before, I am now playing a club that is totally different than I have ever played. But, I did notice, and the weather was hot yesterday, that my PW was only a couple of yards less than my 9 iron.

So after playing 18 holes with the wedge, I decided to go ahead and redo all of the clubs, hybrids thru gap wedge. (A special shoutout to Pure Grips because in order to take the grips off I just hooked the gun up to the compressor and shot off the grip, then after I was finished with the tape I reinstalled the grips. Way Cool!)

I have added this amount of tape to the driver, not really for swingweight but for grip comfort, and never gave swingweight a second thought. But I did this before I ever played the driver. I hit three balls in the back yard and cut off the grip and and added one I liked with the "proper" size. Well, after I did this to the irons and the hybrids I realized that that it was just not a grip size felt better but that the total weight of the club, while up, felt lighter. And much more to my liking.

So today, I have my new swingweighted clubs with a lighter swingweight but a very heavy club. C Tapers are 130 g. 200+ g for head, 50 g grip and 92 g of tape.

WOW! How could I have been so wrong about what swingweight is best for me? I could not feel the weight of the head compared to my old clubs, and since one of they guys I was playing with had my old clubs I could compare. But I swung these so easily it is ridiculous. I have never has a better day stricking the irons. All I wanted to do was hit full iron shots. It was cold (wind shirt weather) wet, windy this morning. 3 inches of rain last night, and the ball was flying like winter, but these irons were so sweet to hit. I had some distance control problems because sometimes the ball flew short and sometimes it was long, but it was just me trying to adjust.

I am still going to do a review on the C Tapers and KBS Hybrids after I adjust to them but this swingweight deal was something that came up out of the blue.

#2 finalist

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:08 AM

What swing weight before and after?

Jack played heavy clubs that had a very light swing weight C9 i think? It's all personal preference.
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#3 RoverRick

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:21 AM

I honestly do not know. I did not care about what the swingweight was, I just know what I liked. I thought I liked to feel the head during the swing. But today and yesterday I learned that is not the case. I do not really feel the head and the only thing I can really compare it to is a broadsword.

It is very heavy but not when you swing it. All day long it was like I was just holding a grip and making a swing, like I was just slicing the perfect divot out of the turf. The ball flight on every shot was nearly perfect. They flew long or short of the most part but several times I was right in line with the flag stick.

I first noticed this yesterday with the PW. I had 3 or 4 tap in birdies with this club with a perfect (as seen on TV) ball flight. I also had plenty of other shot yesterday but today, they were all beautiful strokes. Enough so that the guys I have been playing with since 2004 told me if I played like that next weekend I was going to have to find another group because I was no longer in their league.

I also put these shafts in clubs that I have played since 2004 until December. The Hogan Hybrids. They always had a head heavy feel and I struck them well before. Today they felt better than ever.

I only hope that tomorrow I do not wake up and be unable to hit it out of my shadow.

#4 RoverRick

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:43 AM

What swing weight before and after?

Jack played heavy clubs that had a very light swing weight C9 i think? It's all personal preference.



I found an online calculator and a list of the components and measured and here is what I came up with. The from the factory swingweight of a Mizuno MP62 is D2-D4. My new swingweight is F7. These numbers really mean nothing to me but I do like the new feel.

I guess I was wrong because I thought that with a higher swing weight, the head felt heavier, but this is a higher swingweight, and I do not feel the head. But like I said, I cared nothing about the number, just knew if I liked the way it felt.

#5 BK in TEXAS

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:54 PM

I guess I was wrong because I thought that with a higher swing weight, the head felt heavier, but this is a higher swingweight, and I do not feel the head.

Swingweights kinda confuse me too. Maybe because I never really looked into them much.

Anyway, I like to think of a club as either head heavy, shaft heavy, or balanced. Then the total weight either heavy, medium, or light. I prefer them slightly head heavy & medium total weight.

But then......I've never really experimented with the extremes either so.......


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In my bag, October 2014

Cobra AMP CELL PRO 10.5˚ Stock Shaft (Regular Flex)

Cobra Bio Cell 16˚ Fairway - ProjectX PXv Shaft - (Regular Flex)
Cobra Bio Cell 20˚ Fairway - ProjectX PXv Shaft - (Regular Flex)
Titleist 913H 24˚, 28˚ Hybrid -
KBS Tour 90 Shafts (Regular Flex)

Mizuno MP-52 6-PW; KBS Tour 90 Shafts (Regular Flex)
Callaway Jaws Wedges 52˚,56˚,60˚ DG Spinner Shafts
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#6 jmiller065

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:26 PM

I added the C Taper X Stiff shafts to my irons, and the swingweight was totally different.


In my experience KBS C-Taper (stepless) swing weights traditionally meaning that the swing weight would not change if the shaft you removed weighs the same as the C-Taper might change 1point at the most, majority of people will not be able to feel a difference in swing weight changes less then 2 points. KBS Tour (stepped) will typically drop 2 swing weight points with everything remaining the same it does not swing weight traditionally. So if you start at a D2 you will finish at a D0 with KBS Tour, KBS C-Taper would be D2 to D2 roughly. Both shafts have a 52% balance point but have very different tip section designs to achieve spin and launch angle conditions they were looking for, C-Taper just has more weight in the tip section for a stiffer tip design.


What swing weight before and after?

Jack played heavy clubs that had a very light swing weight C9 I think? It's all personal preference.


I Think you might be confused, C9 is lighter then typical swing weights in OEMs today standard is D2 which is 3 points heavier then C9. Jack used to 'back weight' or 'counter weight' all of his clubs making them swing weight lighter.

0.600 diameter grips on a 0.600 butt shaft are designed to take one layer of double sided tape without changing the grips over all diameter. Build up tape is primarily used to get in between offered grip sizes or as 'lower hand build up'. With that said, one FULL strip (about 10" for most grips) of build up is 2 grams added to the butt section, this is about 0.5 swing weight point on the grip end. As I said above majority of people will not notice a change of less then 2 swing weight points, some will most won't. To build up a standard size you need two wraps of build-up (4 grams added) and one wrap of double sided (2+1 so to speak). This would REDUCE swing weight by about 1 point, from D2 to D1 if everything else stayed the same.

NOTE: duct tape, household masking tape, double sided tape all have different thicknesses and weight to them, I am basing these numbers on the fact you have build-up tape produced specifically for golf, that is exactly 1/64" in the end result of build-up. It is not going to be the same if you build up with double sided, smaller thickness masking tape, duct tape, etc.

I have 3 wraps of build under my lower hand on my grips, they are a 0.590 core so the build up effects them slightly differently then it would on a 0.580 or 0.600 core. Regardless I have added roughly 3grams of tape under my grips so about 1.5 swing weight points. The end result is my shafts swing weighting -1 point roughly less then what they would without build up tape.

In short, 5 grams on the grip end is -1 swing weight point, 2 grams on the head side is about +1 swing weight point.

swing weight technical stuff --> http://advancedballs...ing_weights.pdf
swing weight charts --> http://www.golf-comp...hart-woods.html

EDIT: 92grams of tape would be something absurd in terms of tape wraps, it would be about 46wraps, I am inclined to think that this number is not accurate :)

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
:srixon-small: Z-Star
 
Favorite Quotes
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course... the space between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#7 RoverRick

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:49 PM

96 grams may be an absurd number. When I convert that to ounces I get 3.4. I do not have a gram scale, and while I deal with metric wieghts and measures everyday, what a gram or an ounce feels like is nothing to me. That is about the third of a can of beer and I can hold that in my mouth.:P and that is the only reference I have. (yes I know that is fluid ounces) Having said that the swingweight calculation that I did on the internet does not seem remotely right. but since I have never done that before I have no reference.

However, what I did at the butt of the club I put two wraps of two inch wide masking tape around the diameter of the shaft. I then moved down and put three wraps or so around the next two inches until it was the same size as the butt, and so on for the next two inches and there are five wraps. So the grip is really huge. I did this stickly to change the size of the grip and gave no thought to the weight being added to the club. I calculated that I used .85 or so meters. I could get that much tape and weigh it but did not. I calculated it based on what he roll of tape said it weighed.

As I said, I never cared and honestly did not pay attention to swingweight numbers because C0, D1, and D4 mean less to me than 50 grams. All I know is that not only did I like the feel of the grip much better after it was larger, I loved the way the feel of the weight changed. Where previously liked a head heavy club, I like this feel better.

The thing that was the most interesting to me was that changing from a 90 gram steel shaft to a 130 gram shaft made the club feel so much heavier, but adding weight under the grip made it feel not as heavy.

I read the thread on "The Secret Grip" or back weighted grip a couple of months ago. I found it interesting that they would say that by adding weight to the butt you could improve distance and accuracy. Winn says with their lighter grips you can add distance and accuracy. I have used them and know that that is a fact, but since their grips only last a couple of rounds (a slight exaggeration, they last 20 rounds) I went back to regular grips. So how can both be right?

#8 jmiller065

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:47 PM

Take the weight of the grip will change the swing weight faster then tape will, for example going from a standard 50gram grip down to a a WinnLite Pro at 25grams that is going to add about 5 swing weight points alone to the club roughly. Go from a D2 to a D9 or E0, sounds heavy as heck but it really is not that is with everything staying the same with the exception of 25grams in weight for a grip.

5 wraps (1/2 wraps, full wraps is 10 grams) would be about 5 to 8 grams in added weight around 1 to 1.5 points of change, butt of the club is 5grams per 1 point...

The head of the golf club is about 2grams per 1 point in swing weight, you get faster results with changing head weight then adding butt weight.

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
:srixon-small: Z-Star
 
Favorite Quotes
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course... the space between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#9 GolfSpy Bones

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:58 PM

My new swingweight is F7. These numbers really mean nothing to me but I do like the new feel.

Holy sh!t, thats like a brick attached to a shaft. When I played my Burner at 44.5", I had to add a ton of lead tape to get it to a D6; when I put that head on my Black Ops at 46" (total length) without taking the tape off, it felt like I had a 10lb weight on the end of the shaft and it measured at F0.



#10 jmiller065

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:39 PM

Holy sh!t, thats like a brick attached to a shaft. When I played my Burner at 44.5", I had to add a ton of lead tape to get it to a D6; when I put that head on my Black Ops at 46" (total length) without taking the tape off, it felt like I had a 10lb weight on the end of the shaft and it measured at F0.


I must have missed the part about F7, good lord that is a lot of weight on that sucker, I like something that is about D4 +/- 1point, I haven't swing weighted my clubs in a long time with the tape on them, I don't really care like you said it feels good to me and preforms well.

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
:srixon-small: Z-Star
 
Favorite Quotes
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course... the space between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#11 R.P. Jacobs II

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:12 PM

RR, please excuse me for veering OT, however I wanted to thank JMiller for posting that site, golpsych, on the the other thread...There are'nt too many posts on that thread so I didn't know when he'd get back to it...If the mental side of the game interests you, there are some excellent articles on the site....Again, apologies for temporary hijack :)...Fairways & Greens 4ever...

What's Inside My Sun Mountain H2N0 Stand Bag:

-TMaG RBZ ST 2 Tour(Breast Cancer Pink Head by WalkerJames) 10.5*, Graphite Design Tour AD 9003 S(74gr)

-Adams Speedline XTD Super LS VST 3FM(Breast Cancer Fill) 15*, RT Tech Midas S(88gr)

-Adams Idea XTD Super LS VST Hybrid 19*, Fubuki AX 350

-Mizzy MP-68(4i-8i),TT DG TI S400, +1/2", +2*

-SCOR 43*,47*,51*,55*,59*, Genious 12 Firm +,  +1/2"

-Scotty Studio Select Fastback Custom 1.5, 35", 350gr HW(Not from the shop, notta Tour Issue/Circle T, just a poor ass retail model B))-Breast Cancer Fill

-Golf Pride Decade Multi-Compound Cord, Mizzy Blue/Black

-Stones Tour B330-S

-Shoes: A bunch, depends on my slacks, lol
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I Am A Very Kind, Compassionate & Understanding Man......

 

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RP Jacobs II

 


#12 RookieBlue7

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:23 PM

Basic swingweight figuring conversions:

1/2" = 3 swing weight points

2 gr club head weight = 1 swing weight point

5 gr grip = 1 swing weight point

9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point

4* flatter lie or more up right lie = increase or decrease 1 swing weight point

As for C-Tapers, I've found they balance VERY differently than any other shaft I've ever swingweighted . The same exact weight in those and the DG Tour Issues, for me, produced a 4 point swing (lighter sw). Got around it with tip weights.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade Tour Issue Superfast 2.0 LCG w/ USPG Black Ops Pearl X 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade SLDR TS 13* with Aldila NV 75X
3 Hybrid: Adams Super LSP 18* (bent to 17*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams Super LSP 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
5-7I : Tour Issued Adams CB2 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour issue S400 hardstepped 1x
8-GW: Tour Issued Adams CB1 w/ Dynamic Gold S400 hardstepped 1x

SW: 56* Cleveland CG12 (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Cleveland CG12 (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
Putter: Mannkrafted Widebody Rattler 34", 71* lie, 4* loft

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.


#13 jmiller065

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:16 PM

Well I just figured I would settle the back and forth and put a post into KBS and their official thread, I'll wait on a response, If I am wrong and have been in the past I'll admit to it.

In the case my above statements of C-Taper's swing weighting more traditionally then the KBS Tour model are wrong once KBS responds, then my applogizes for the poor information. But I really don't see them coming in at a 4point drop, KBS Tour was a 2 point drop and it has a weaker tip section.

My Equipment
KZG VC-420 ML (10.5* Loft & 0.2* Open Face Angle) @ 44.50" w/ RT Technologies Ares LT (65g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB3 Tour 16.5* @ 42.50" w/ RT Technologies Zeus (85g) Stiff (Tipped 1/2")
Tour Edge Exotics CB2 19.0* @ 40.00" w/ RT Technologies Midas (98g) Stiff (Tipped 1")
:cleveland-small: 588 MB 3i - 9i @ 38.75" - 35.75", 59.0* - 62.0*, 21* - 43* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 48-10 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 54-12 @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour X-Stiff (Soft Stepped 1x)
Fourteen MT-28 V5 T.S. Black 60-M @ 35.25", 62.0* w/ KBS Tour Wedge X-Stiff
:yes-small: Callie-f @ 33.25", 3.5* Loft, 69* Lie, 3/4 Shaft Offset, Pure Midsize Round Grip
Lamkin Crossline Full Cord M58, 2 build up wraps under right hand, 1 full double sided wrap
:srixon-small: Z-Star
 
Favorite Quotes
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Albert Einstein
"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course... the space between your ears." ~ Bobby Jones

The genius of Bruce Rearick (bargolf):
1. Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them
2. It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.


#14 RoverRick

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:08 PM

That F7 calculation that I got off an internet site is totally wrong. As I understand it that would be a brick on a stick. By adding the weight under the grip, I moved the center of gravity so that the head feels less heavy. And that was my point, I thought I liked a head heavy feel, but I like this better. Since I posted the original thing, however, I have come to the conclusion that the Extra Stiff C Tapers may be too much for me. I am still testing but I have a set of KBS Tours in Stiff that I ordered.

I used an online calculator where you put in the numbers and it tells you the swingweight and did it quickly. Obviously that is not correct.

I figured that I could sell the C Tapers and X100's or KBS Tours whichever I decide is not best for me and get my money back because I am getting them all pretty cheap. The tours will be here before the weekend and I will pop the C Tapers out and put in the Tours, and play the weekend with them. That will give be about a week with each shaft.


Edit: The point was not really how it affected the swingweight number but how you could add weight under the grip, and the club would feel lighter in the swing. I had given no real thought to the weight when doing this I just knew it felt better.

#15 GolfSpy Bones

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:27 AM

A swingweight scale is one of the best golfing investments I've made.






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