backspin cancels out sidespin ? myth or not ?

[bcgolf]

Am considering ordering MP53. Shaftfit.com says I can play DG S300, PX 5.5 flighted or Dynalite G XP S300, depending on what trajectory I want.

Have tried PX 5.0 and 5.5 before and hated the boardy feel, so that one is out. Tried DG S300 before and loved feel, extra weight is also beneficial for my timing as I tend to swing and transition too fast. Never tried XP S300.

Now I'm a high ballflight hitter, due to tendency to flip. So with that in mind (flipping and extra weight for timing) DG S300 seems best choice to keep ballflight low, allthough I worry slightly about being able to stop my approaches on the green as its low launch low spin, and the ability to get sufficient height with the long irons.

 

BUT I was wondering if XP S300 wouldn't be a safer bet, escpecially when I get the flipping under control I presume my resulting ballflight will be automatically lower, and when the swing is off, am feeling tired and so on, I get more launch and spin from it.

BUT 2 ... I read somewhere that backspin cancels out sidespin (which I find hard to believe, as there is no backspin and sidespin, there is just spin that gets artificially broken down into back and side, right ?)

 

So twofold question:

- which shaft you think is most suitable when I get the flipping under control (am not looking for extra distance, just want good dispersion, can live with high ballflight, can always club up and grip down when lower flight is needed in the wind)

- does backspin cancel out sidespin (or practically applied, if you want as little draw or fade bias in you ballflight, would you go with a high spin shaft or a low spin shaft)

 

I know the correct answer is go get fit, but that is not an option unfortunately, neither have I got access to MP53 with both shafts.

[RoverRick]

BC I recently went and tested shafts trying to get the launch down, and spin down. I no longer flip the club, I trap the ball. I ended up with C tapers in extra stiff.

 

These are the lowest launching, lowest spinning shaft there is. I have had no issues with stopping the ball on the green or working the ball. I am trying some KBS Tours later in the week, mainly because I was not sure at the time I ordered them if I could play the C Tapers in XS. I played them great every since then but I got a really good deal on the Tours so I thought I would try them. They are just stiff. I will end up selling the extra shafts next week.

 

Now according to the LM for me, there was only 4.5 degrees and 1800 rpms between the highest launching and spinning (KBS Tour 90) and the lowest, KBS C Tapers. All the others were in between. When you take KBS out of the options, and compare the PX 5.5 to the S300 than there was 2.5 degrees difference and 1400 rpms. So instead of backing the ball up I hit and the ball rolls about 6 feet.

 

Bottom line is that if you do not have a running off the green issue now, the shaft change will not have much effect.

 

According to the launch monitor I would see the most distance of these two shafts with the S300 (6 yards) but I have not had the distance it say I would gain with the C Tapers so you can not go by them. Also, while I would say that I have had some lower ball flight, it has not limited my ability to hit it hight when I needed to.

 

As far as does back spin cancel side spin, I do not know, but I have a ton of back spin and still work the ball.

[GolfSpy WD]

The advice I was given was fix the flipping first. Having the hands forward will product more backspin. You and I hit the ball high because flipping creates extra club loft.

[well01]

No such thing as side spin.

[GolfSpy WD]

which I find hard to believe, as there is no backspin and sidespin, there is just spin that gets artificially broken down into back and side, right

 

The ball spins on an axis. Hitting down on the ball generates backspin. Hitting the ball with a open/close club face or swing path generates side spin. Off center hits will also affect backspin and side spin. So you're adding two different spins together which make up the axis angle, but I don't think this causes each other to cancel out.

 

I couldn't find anything that gave a measure of whether backspin and sidespin negatively affect each other, but I did find a research paper that concluded that both backspin and sidespin were greater with higher moment of inertia or shallower center of gravity. This doesn't disprove the "more sidespin less backspin" theory, but it does show the opposite result due to clubhead design.

 

http://birch.seas.harvard.edu/files/Numerical%20Analysis%20of%20Golf%20Club%20Head.pdf

[well01]

Trackman guys can explain this better but backspin AND sidespin don't exist. The myth that backspin cancels out sidespin isn't really an accurate way of explaining what happens. The ball only spins one way...90 degrees to its axis. The ball curves when the axis is tilted. There is an explanation for why the axis gets tilted less with clubs that have more loft but I probably can't explain it correctly. I think there is a video out on youtube somewhere....maybe try a search for "Joe Mayo Trackman" or something like that.

[GolfSpy WD]

BTW, I just spoke to Terry Felty over at Big Sticks Golf in Burlington, MA where I'm going to be taking lessons later. He agreed that it doesn't make any sense to get fit until after you've fixed the flipping problem, spend your money on lessons instead.

 

One thing he said about the Tour Striker is you have to be careful because it might fix your irons but cause you to hit down on your driver.

[RoverRick]

True, there is only one spin on the ball. Side spin is the term used to express how far off of the vertical or absolute straight spin. It could be discribed in the form of an angle, but do you really have any concept of 4.3* or 1.2* vs 1500 rpms vs 100 rpms sidespin. These numbers are easier to understand. By dividing this into two numbers and calling it back spin and side spin we can grasp the concept better than saying that the spin is so many degrees off of the ideal vertical position. Futhermore, it is easier to say that if it is spinning one way it is negative side spin and another way it is positive side spin. If the ball had no spin than a ball off of the driver would travel about 150 yards. Too much spin is bad. A draw spin causes the ball to travel (hits and rolls) more than a fade spin (hits and stops). So while there is no such thing as side spin, and negative spin we are talking simply about the terms used to discribe the spin of the golf ball.

[JMiller]

True, there is only one spin on the ball. Side spin is the term used to express how far off of the vertical or absolute straight spin. It could be described in the form of an angle, but do you really have any concept of 4.3* or 1.2* vs 1500 rpms vs 100 rpms sidespin. These numbers are easier to understand. By dividing this into two numbers and calling it back spin and side spin we can grasp the concept better than saying that the spin is so many degrees off of the ideal vertical position. Futhermore, it is easier to say that if it is spinning one way it is negative side spin and another way it is positive side spin. If the ball had no spin than a ball off of the driver would travel about 150 yards. Too much spin is bad. A draw spin causes the ball to travel (hits and rolls) more than a fade spin (hits and stops). So while there is no such thing as side spin, and negative spin we are talking simply about the terms used to describe the spin of the golf ball.

 

This sums it up really well, good information here.

 

Here is a link of data taken from track man and axis tilt --> http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter7.pdf

 

If someone wants to figure out the axis tilt for the Bubba Watson hook at about 150 yards in the Masters for for it.

[Shambles]

@ RoverRick and wdgolf :

 

Nicely explained. Habit and common practice does make communication restricted and misleading at times. Tom Wishon explained spin in like manner. I will not even try to quote him as, between the two of you, the matter appears to have been sufficiently explained for basic purposes.

 

@ bcgolf :

 

I am uncertain if your idea of " flipping " is the same as mine. In my mind, it is an additional manipulation of the club during the swing to bring it to square before the ball is struck. One of the signs I see is that the player finds a need, at least initially in his life as a golfer, to address the ball farther forward in his stance and also has a tendency to hit the ball higher with a steeper drop when it loses it's go forward momentum. The end result, to the best of my knowledge, is that the player robs himself of distance, also initially. In time and with much practice, even with flipping, distance can be gained but I really have no idea if that player will still be playing with less distance than naturally belongs to his swing.

 

If you have access to a very good fitter who understands his business, I suggest you ask him to do a fitting of your hands to your grips and, if needed, have your grips adjusted accordingly. It won't automatically eliminate flipping but it will make the elimination easier to achieve by reducing the tendency to manipulate. Whether you do this or not, you will still need to give your attention to your swing and a fair amount of practice. I just happen to believe the difficulty of making the change will be reduced by the proper size grips for your hands.

 

It's not an absolute necessity, and might not actually be your problem. Obviously I am making a very wild guess considering your bare bones description. I just happen to be in the mood to make wild guesses at the moment. However, I doubt you will be wasting money making sure your grips are proper for your hands. There are many subtle parts of the golf swing that are made easier with the proper fit.

 

 

Shambles

[well01]

True, there is only one spin on the ball. Side spin is the term used to express how far off of the vertical or absolute straight spin. It could be discribed in the form of an angle, but do you really have any concept of 4.3* or 1.2* vs 1500 rpms vs 100 rpms sidespin.

Why do you say sidespin is the term used to express how far off of the vertical or absolute straight spin? Almost everytime I hear someone talk about sidespin or read something about sidespin that person actually thinks the ball is spinning both sideways and backwards. Thats the whole problem and is just adding to the confusion of people thinking backspin cancels out sidespin. I'm not saying I have concept of 4.3* or 1.2* but I also have no concept of 1500 rpms vs 100 rpms sidespin.

 

These numbers are easier to understand. By dividing this into two numbers and calling it back spin and side spin we can grasp the concept better than saying that the spin is so many degrees off of the ideal vertical position.

How is that easier to understand...It confuses people and is wrong. What concept is easier to understand? I went to a clinic last year from a VERY popular teacher. There were probably 50 people at the clinic and 4 or 5 camera's rolling. He claimed Driver fittings are flawed because they focus on reducing backspin. He said while this will add distance it will decrease accuracy because you need more backspin to cancel out the sidespin.

 

A draw spin causes the ball to travel (hits and rolls) more than a fade spin (hits and stops).

100% wrong. A draw and fade with equal ball speeds, launch angles, and spin rates will go equal distances and roll equal distances. This sounds like when people used to say the draws landed with topspin and rolled further. Trackman and other tracking devices have showed that everything else being equal there is no distance advantage to a draw or fade. Maybe it goes further for you because your draw impact alignments are better than your fade impact alignments.

[GolfSpy WD]

How is that easier to understand...It confuses people and is wrong. What concept is easier to understand? I went to a clinic last year from a VERY popular teacher. There were probably 50 people at the clinic and 4 or 5 camera's rolling. He claimed Driver fittings are flawed because they focus on reducing backspin. He said while this will add distance it will decrease accuracy because you need more backspin to cancel out the sidespin.

 

What teacher was this? It sounds like he's advocating compensating one swing flaw (slice) with another (hitting down on the ball)...

[Tony Covey MGS]

Why do you say sidespin is the term used to express how far off of the vertical or absolute straight spin? Almost everytime I hear someone talk about sidespin or read something about sidespin that person actually thinks the ball is spinning both sideways and backwards. Thats the whole problem and is just adding to the confusion of people thinking backspin cancels out sidespin. I'm not saying I have concept of 4.3* or 1.2* but I also have no concept of 1500 rpms vs 100 rpms sidespin.

 

 

How is that easier to understand...It confuses people and is wrong. What concept is easier to understand? I went to a clinic last year from a VERY popular teacher. There were probably 50 people at the clinic and 4 or 5 camera's rolling. He claimed Driver fittings are flawed because they focus on reducing backspin. He said while this will add distance it will decrease accuracy because you need more backspin to cancel out the sidespin.

 

 

100% wrong. A draw and fade with equal ball speeds, launch angles, and spin rates will go equal distances and roll equal distances. This sounds like when people used to say the draws landed with topspin and rolled further. Trackman and other tracking devices have showed that everything else being equal there is no distance advantage to a draw or fade. Maybe it goes further for you because your draw impact alignments are better than your fade impact alignments.

 

The idea that backspin cancels sidespin is ludicrous. A golf ball rotates on a single axis. Backspin cannot cancel sidespin because the latter doesn't actually exist. There is only spin (even if we use the sidespin to try and make things easier to conceptualize). You'd be amazed at how little some Top Teachers actually understand about the physics of ball flight.

 

well01 is correct. All factors being equal, a draw does not produce more carry (or roll) than a fade. Again, we're simply talking about spin along an axis so whether or not the combination of face angle and impact moves the ball left to right or right to left is inconsequential as far as comparative distance is concerned.

 

The perception to the contrary is due to the fact that the tendency is to hit balls high to the right (open face/more loft), or low to the left (closed face/less loft). A higher launch angle will produce a softer landing, a lower launch will roll more. The actual differences in distance, however, are due to differences in the effective loft at impact, not the directionality of the spin axis.

 

For example let's say I hit two shots. If both are hit with a vertical launch angle of 12.5 degrees, and I generate 150 MPH of ball speed, which creates 2800 RPM of actual spin, and the only difference between the two shots is that one has a spin axis of 5 degrees ("fade spin") and the other has a spin axis of -5 degrees ("draw spin"), If we have absolutely identical weather conditions, carry distance, and roll distance for the two shots will be absolutely identical.

 

You can see this for yourself using FlightScope's Trajectory Optimizer.

 

 

[well01]

What teacher was this? It sounds like he's advocating compensating one swing flaw (slice) with another (hitting down on the ball)...

I would rather not say...don't really think it's my place to say. I do know the videos are out there on the internet. I'm not really sure if he was talking about swing flaws or not. The way I took it was he actually thought a drive with more backspin was more accurate because it didn't allow the ball to spin sideways as much. Obviously, this is crazy and i'm sure he now realizes how wrong he was.

 

The idea that backspin cancels sidespin is ludicrous. A golf ball rotates on a single axis. Backspin cannot cancel sidespin because the latter doesn't actually exist. There is only spin (even if we use the sidespin to try and make things easier to conceptualize). You'd be amazed at how little some Top Teachers actually understand about the physics of ball flight.

 

well01 is correct. All factors being equal, a draw does not produce more carry (or roll) than a fade. Again, we're simply talking about spin along an axis so whether or not the combination of face angle and impact moves the ball left to right or right to left is inconsequential as far as comparative distance is concerned.

 

The perception to the contrary is due to the fact that the tendency is to hit balls high to the right (open face/more loft), or low to the left (closed face/less loft). A higher launch angle will produce a softer landing, a lower launch will roll more. The actual differences in distance, however, are due to differences in the effective loft at impact, not the directionality of the spin axis.

 

For example let's say I hit two shots. If both are hit with a vertical launch angle of 12.5 degrees, and I generate 150 MPH of ball speed, which creates 2800 RPM of actual spin, and the only difference between the two shots is that one has a spin axis of 5 degrees ("fade spin") and the other has a spin axis of -5 degrees ("draw spin"), If we have absolutely identical weather conditions, carry distance, and roll distance for the two shots will be absolutely identical.

 

You can see this for yourself using FlightScope's Trajectory Optimizer.

 

Good Post!!

[RoverRick]

A draw spin causes the ball to travel (hits and rolls) more than a fade spin (hits and stops).

 

 

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

[Shambles]

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

 

I think it's simply easier for us to hit in to out for the draw than to hit out to in for the fade. We spend all our time fighting the fade or slice and the idea of letting it happen must be troublesome to the mind.

 

 

Shambles

[Tony Covey MGS]

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

 

Rick, my friend, you may despise me before this thread ends, but you're wrong in your assertion that the toe must be ahead of the heel (closed) to hit a draw. This is among the most wide-spread myths where the physics of ball flight (specifically curvature) are concerned.Curvature (how the ball tilts on its axis) is determined by the relationship between face angle (where the face is pointing at impact) AND the swing path. If for example my club face is 2* open to the target line at impact (heel ahead of toe), but my swing path is 5 degrees open to the target line, the resulting ball flight will be a draw. Likewise it's possible to hit a fade with a closed face (the same relationship applies).

 

Few question the latter as most of us have come over the top with a closed face and produced a pull fade/hook. It's much harder for the average golfer to hit the the first shot I described, which I believe has led to prevailing belief that the club face has to be closed (toe ahead of heel) to hit a draw. Granted, that's mostly how it happens, but in terms of the pure physics of ball flight face angle alone does not determine curvature.

 

This is probably the definitive explanation on the subject. What I love about this guy is he's not afraid to take on some of the top teachers (Haney) when they give swing advice that flies in the face of the actual science of it. There are too many teachers who don't understand the basic laws of ball flight, and their students are probably hurting because of it.

 

 

[well01]

Good explanation by golfspy t. Just to add I have worked with an instructor who has the trackman numbers of over 70 tour players. Only two played a closed face draw (pull draw) and I think there were 8 or 9 that played an open face fade (push fade). All the other players hit draws with an open face or fades with a closed face.

[RoverRick]

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

 

 

My latest mistake is that in an effort to keep this sort of on topic, which was about the effects of the spin, not necessarily how to achieve this spin, I said that IN THE SIMPLEST TERMS, the toe needs to move past the heel at impact. This was not the only way to do so. This happens to be the way that I do it, along with a number of other set up changes that were actually addressed in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

 

So in an effort to keep this misunderstanding from happening again I am now considering altering my signature to the following.

 

 

 

 

While I have made every effort to ensure the accuracy of the above statement I assume no responsibilities for errors, omissions, or damages therein caused.

[Tony Covey MGS]

My latest mistake is that in an effort to keep this sort of on topic, which was about the effects of the spin, not necessarily how to achieve this spin, I said that IN THE SIMPLEST TERMS, the toe needs to move past the heel at impact. This was not the only way to do so. This happens to be the way that I do it, along with a number of other set up changes that were actually addressed in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

 

So in an effort to keep this misunderstanding from happening again I am now considering altering my signature to the following.

 

While I have made every effort to ensure the accuracy of the above statement I assume no responsibilities for errors, omissions, or damages therein caused.

 

Rick - not to keep beating on you, but are you sure that's how you do it? I'm wondering if you've had this verified by Trackman or Flightscope, etc.. This is more of a curiosity for me as the more I learn about ball flight physics the more I question some of what I've been told over the years. Joe Mayo (from the video) suggests that ball flight with the driver is determined 90% by the face angle. So theoretically hitting a ball that truly starts right of the target line that then draws left should actually be easier to accomplish with a slightly open face and an inside to out path than it would be by trying to close the face before (or during) impact.

 

Again...since having witnessed first hand (video & other analysis tools) that what I think I'm doing and what I'm actually doing are very different things, this is a point of curiosity for me (as opposed to me trying to tell you wrong about how you think you personally hit a draw).

 

I don't think we've strayed too far off topic. Spin is spin. Of course, what I think is true is backspin doesn't counteract sidespin, a flatter axis does.

 

More loosely related, this relatively simple concept of a spin access makes it much easier to understand why uphill and downhill lies behave the way they do.

[revkev]

Alright I'm the nub here - this is a very intriguing question for me because I'm wondering how much of a factor the ball plays in spin rate off the driver and longer clubs and how much that difference actually causes in curvature when the ball is tilted on its axis as it spins.

 

Given the relatively small difference in spin rates off the driver between all types and models of golf balls I wouldn't think it would be all that much. Proline balls are not the balata babies of our youth - they don't spin all that much more than their two piece friends but is that additional spin enough that I shouldn't be recommending a proline ball to my middle handicapper friends? I always do, they rarely listen and then they wonder why they struggle so around the greens - of course some practice there or a lesson might help too.

 

In regards to the original question I'm not as conversant as to which shaft will help produce the desired results but I do wonder about the fitting vs. the flipping - If a player were using the wrong equipment could that not be a partial cause for the flipping? I'd think the solution would be to do both - take lessons and during the course of the lessons get fit or make the desired equipment change according to the recommendations of your pro and your fitter.

[RoverRick]

Rick - not to keep beating on you, but are you sure that's how you do it? I'm wondering if you've had this verified by Trackman or Flightscope, etc.. This is more of a curiosity for me as the more I learn about ball flight physics the more I question some of what I've been told over the years. Joe Mayo (from the video) suggests that ball flight with the driver is determined 90% by the face angle. So theoretically hitting a ball that truly starts right of the target line that then draws left should actually be easier to accomplish with a slightly open face and an inside to out path than it would be by trying to close the face before (or during) impact.

 

Again...since having witnessed first hand (video & other analysis tools) that what I think I'm doing and what I'm actually doing are very different things, this is a point of curiosity for me (as opposed to me trying to tell you wrong about how you think you personally hit a draw).

 

I don't think we've strayed too far off topic. Spin is spin. Of course, what I think is true is backspin doesn't counteract sidespin, a flatter axis does.

 

More loosely related, this relatively simple concept of a spin access makes it much easier to understand why uphill and downhill lies behave the way they do.

 

With the irons, I have only been able to hit draws and hooks and bigger hooks, and "Elmer Fing Large" hooks, until I changed shafts to the X100s and the C Tapers XS. I have has some luck recently with fades. Tee shots with irons before that were basically a prayer of how far left I wanted it to go. Usually praying that it stayed inside the tree line.

 

 

But I am possitive that for the last couple of years before EVERY tee shot with driver, fairway metal, or hybrid, and the past couple of weeks with irons. I deside if I want a fade or a draw. I decide where I want to start the ball and where I want it to end. I pick one side or the other of the tee box, rarely picking the middle. Then if I am going to hit a draw I move the ball ball back in my stance, inside the shirt logo, and move my trail foot back 4 to 6 inches, and take a practice swing and focus on turning my hands over, I think about if I were driving the cart and want to turn left I would turn the steering wheel to the left. The harder I want the ball to turn the further back in my stance I put the ball and the harder I "turn the steering wheel". As far as the swing, I do not really adjust the swing, because I have worked hard to have an inside to out swing. And not come over the top. I still do that occassionally and do pull the ball but usually no more than once a round, and often not even that. I am not the longest driver in the world but I am almost always in the fairway. I also try to focus on hitting the ball a half an inch towards the toe of the driver in the center of the face.

 

To hit a fade, I move the ball up further in my stance and outside the shirt logo. I move my right foot back about 4 inches, and focus on holding off my finish. While with a draw, I will finsh with the club pointing down over my left shoulder, but with a fade I will finish with the club pointed up.

 

I have tried to focus on swinging out to in with a fade and that causes me to double cross myself and hit a pull hook into double bogeyland.

 

I also decide if I want to hit it high or low. This is simply a matter of adjusting my spine and thus shoulder angle. A low shot, I have more level shoulders and a high shot I have my left shoulder higher.

 

Have I varified this with a Trackman or something, NO. I was shocked when the SkyCaddie guy showed up and mapped the course, no one will come here with one of those. I can hear the guys at the club now, "I hope you got enough wire to hook to the ball, cause I'm a gonna hit it a fur piece.":P (I hope you read that with the proper redneck accent.)

 

As I have stated in other post, after the drive to the closest Trackman, and I do not think it is a Trackman, I never have my best swing so I have not even thought about it. Besides, for the same reason I have avoided looking at the video you posted until after I write this, it really does not matter what the club and ball are actually doing. I make these changes and the ball flies the way I want it to.

 

I have also worked with some friends and had them make the changes in set up and they also can now move the ball around. One guy went from a 106 to 83 in two weeks just because he stopped hitting his drives into the woods, OB or water. But he does not stop to think about every shot and now is reverting back to his old ways. (thank goodness because he was killing me with the bets.)

 

We have not strayed too far off topic now, because the topic has evolved to this. But in my first statement which did in fact change the direction of the topic.

 

Uphill and downhill have an effect on the shoulder level realive to the flight path. In order to make proper contact, it is advised that you match your shoulder level, spine ange, to the slope of the ground. This should have little effect on side spin, because that is determined by face angle. However, downhill will deloft the club, and uphill will add loft to the club. Yesterday I had a sever downhill lie 50 yards from the green and a pond between me and the green. I had to swing down the hill to hit the ball. I laid my 60 degree wedge against the slope and could tell that I was not going to have enough loft to clear the other bank, so I lined up and told the guys that I had dirt on my ball that I thought would make it not roll to the hole so I was going to wash it before I got to the green. I took a full swing with the 60 it skipped off the water twice and hit the upslope and bounce up on the green and rolled 8 feet from the hole. I knew that the ball would be spinning so hard that it would skip off the water. Well, I hoped that it would skip off the water.

 

Sidehill has a greater affect on the left or right spin of the ball.

[JMiller]

Well, for me personally I try to use a square face to the target and my path changes the shape. Doesn't always happen that way however

 

You can hit a straight shot 3 different ways (in the trackman data that I posted before towards the bottom.) this means you can hit a draw and fade a lot of different ways.

[RoverRick]

Alright I'm the nub here - this is a very intriguing question for me because I'm wondering how much of a factor the ball plays in spin rate off the driver and longer clubs and how much that difference actually causes in curvature when the ball is tilted on its axis as it spins.

 

Given the relatively small difference in spin rates off the driver between all types and models of golf balls I wouldn't think it would be all that much. Proline balls are not the balata babies of our youth - they don't spin all that much more than their two piece friends but is that additional spin enough that I shouldn't be recommending a proline ball to my middle handicapper friends? I always do, they rarely listen and then they wonder why they struggle so around the greens - of course some practice there or a lesson might help too.

 

In regards to the original question I'm not as conversant as to which shaft will help produce the desired results but I do wonder about the fitting vs. the flipping - If a player were using the wrong equipment could that not be a partial cause for the flipping? I'd think the solution would be to do both - take lessons and during the course of the lessons get fit or make the desired equipment change according to the recommendations of your pro and your fitter.

 

I spin the ball too much with all my clubs, except wedges, can not have too much spin (IMO). This was robbing me of distance. The recent addition of the GD Tour AD DI 7 has gotten me many yards because it killed the spin. The heavier shaft has also helped in my control. Enough so that it has had a ripple effect in my bag. I replaced my hybrid graphite shafts with KBS Hybrid steel shafts. These have now been called sniper rifle clubs because of my ability to hit them long and straight. My 3 wood has been expelled completely. I am testing iron shafts now, and until tonight , I have KBS C Tapers that are extremely accurate. They may be too stiff for me and I notice that if I play more than 18 holes the distance really suffers, which is why I am trying some KBS Tours for the next week, I have to really be on my game to take full advantage of the XS shafts. That is why I am trying the KBS Tours in Stiff. That and I got a set for $100 so why not.

 

I had a flipping problem. My problems were not caused by the wrong equipment. It was most likely caused by poor swing mechanics. Starting the swing with the shoulder, caused me to flip and expend most of the energy too soon. I videoed myself with the iPhone and put it on the computer and identified the problem. I then stated focusing on hitting with forward shaft lean. Hitting down on the ball. But I also had a flawed grip. I found that I had stop worrying about what I was doing wrong, and learn how to do it right. Starting with the plan, the grip, the stance, the waggle, the backswing, the thru swing etc... (yes, I think you need to have a plan before you pick up the club to make the shot so it goes before the grip)

 

I will say that the weak shafts that I was using, which were recommended by someone that does it for a living, obviously all you have to do to be a golf "professional" is derive your living from the gold industry, but this is another story. The shafts did not cause my problems, but once my other problems were solved, the shaft problem became more evident.

 

You list your equipment here and from the looks of it, it is fairly modern, it is something that is playable by someone of your skill level, and it is fairly balanced. You may need to be refit later on but it is more important to have the proper mechanics. I can play a decent round now with the scrapes of clubs found in the garage with proper mechanics. But I could not play well, with poor mechanics and a brand new $4,000 set of clubs.

[JMiller]

Sorry OT: Rover you might just be in-between the flexes or fit into S+ a little better, soft stepping the X-Stiff one time might help some. You can kind of look at this basic fitting and get an idea KBS Tour XS plays a lot differently then C-Taper XS with the different tip design and stepped vs stepless feel --> http://kbsgolfshafts.com/fit-system/fit-system-overview

 

Back on topic, I think that both the RPMs and degrees are a bit confusing, RPMs might be simpler to understand because it is directly related to the backspin.

170mph ball speed at 13* launch angle with -5* & 2500 RPM is -231 RPM where 3000rpm back spin is -261 RPM, a degree angle is static RPMs are not, so it is a little easier to translate into shot shape with the degrees over the RPMs.

 

What is interesting is that on both +5 and -5 everything holding the same 2500 RPM, 170mph ball speed was 3 yards longer carry then 3000rpm on the Optimizer. So that tells you how much you can lose per 500 RPM of spin as a high swing speed player. -5* @ 3500 rpm, 170mph ball speed is only a 277 carry where, the spin reduced by 1000RPM is 293 carry +16yards just from reducing spin

[RoverRick]

I reduced my backspin by probably more 2000 rpms on the driver, not real sure because I have not hit both drivers on a LM but I went from 240 yards to 275 yards average, and simply changed equipment. However, this was after I fixed my flawed swing mechanics.

 

If you put new 20 inch rims and tires on an 84 Caprice Classic you still have an 84 Caprice Classic.

[well01]

I reduced my backspin by probably more 2000 rpms on the driver, not real sure because I have not hit both drivers on a LM but I went from 240 yards to 275 yards average, and simply changed equipment. However, this was after I fixed my flawed swing mechanics.

 

If you put new 20 inch rims and tires on an 84 Caprice Classic you still have an 84 Caprice Classic.

 

 

Lol...you must have some super human skills to know how many rpms you reduced on your driver without being on a LM. Saying you reduced by more than 2000 rpms is kinda ridiculous. I guess you could of had the worst fit driver in the world, completly changed your impact angles, and switched to the best fit driver in world.

[RoverRick]

Lol...you must have some super human skills to know how many rpms you reduced on your driver without being on a LM. Saying you reduced by more than 2000 rpms is kinda ridiculous. I guess you could of had the worst fit driver in the world, completly changed your impact angles, and switched to the best fit driver in world.

 

 

That was based on what I saw using different shafts but not this shaft on a LM. The lighter more flexible shafts, that were recommended spun in the 5000+ rpm range, but the heavier Fubiki K I tried was 3000+ range. The Tour AD DI 7 really reduces the spin and instead of the hit and stop that I have grown accustom to it rolls several yards, looks like 20 or 30 from the tee. I have a much more penetrating ball flight also.

 

I also saw a reduction from 6700 rpms on the LM with a 6 iron to 4300 with the C Tapers. Still have no issue with it running off the green. Now I get maybe 5 yards roll with a 5 iron and a hop and stop with a pitching wedge, vs hop and stop 5 irons, and hop and back up with a pitching wedge.