[Shambles]

RoverRick, on 17 May 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

I think it's simply easier for us to hit in to out for the draw than to hit out to in for the fade. We spend all our time fighting the fade or slice and the idea of letting it happen must be troublesome to the mind.


Shambles

[GolfSpy T]

RoverRick, on 16 May 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

Rick, my friend, you may despise me before this thread ends, but you're wrong in your assertion that the toe must be ahead of the heel (closed) to hit a draw. This is among the most wide-spread myths where the physics of ball flight (specifically curvature) are concerned.Curvature (how the ball tilts on its axis) is determined by the relationship between face angle (where the face is pointing at impact) AND the swing path. If for example my club face is 2* open to the target line at impact (heel ahead of toe), but my swing path is 5 degrees open to the target line, the resulting ball flight will be a draw. Likewise it's possible to hit a fade with a closed face (the same relationship applies).

Few question the latter as most of us have come over the top with a closed face and produced a pull fade/hook. It's much harder for the average golfer to hit the the first shot I described, which I believe has led to prevailing belief that the club face has to be closed (toe ahead of heel) to hit a draw. Granted, that's mostly how it happens, but in terms of the pure physics of ball flight face angle alone does not determine curvature.

This is probably the definitive explanation on the subject. What I love about this guy is he's not afraid to take on some of the top teachers (Haney) when they give swing advice that flies in the face of the actual science of it. There are too many teachers who don't understand the basic laws of ball flight, and their students are probably hurting because of it.

[well01]

Good explanation by golfspy t. Just to add I have worked with an instructor who has the trackman numbers of over 70 tour players. Only two played a closed face draw (pull draw) and I think there were 8 or 9 that played an open face fade (push fade). All the other players hit draws with an open face or fades with a closed face.

[RoverRick]

RoverRick, on 16 May 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Actually the word spin makes this a wrong statement. I conceed that there is no difference in "draw" and "fade" spin. However, in order to hit a draw, in simplest terms, the toe of the club needs to be ahead of the heel. Due to the shape of the club, this will slightly lower the loft, causing the ball to launch and land at lower angles making it travel farther. In order to hit a fade, generally, the heel is ahead of the toe, creating more loft, so it launches and lands at steeper angles and goes higher, and thus travels less and rolls less. Yes, you can hit a low fade and a high draw, I hit both today, but in general terms a draw goes farther than a fade,

My latest mistake is that in an effort to keep this sort of on topic, which was about the effects of the spin, not necessarily how to achieve this spin, I said that IN THE SIMPLEST TERMS, the toe needs to move past the heel at impact. This was not the only way to do so. This happens to be the way that I do it, along with a number of other set up changes that were actually addressed in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

So in an effort to keep this misunderstanding from happening again I am now considering altering my signature to the following.




While I have made every effort to ensure the accuracy of the above statement I assume no responsibilities for errors, omissions, or damages therein caused.

[GolfSpy T]

RoverRick, on 16 May 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

My latest mistake is that in an effort to keep this sort of on topic, which was about the effects of the spin, not necessarily how to achieve this spin, I said that IN THE SIMPLEST TERMS, the toe needs to move past the heel at impact. This was not the only way to do so. This happens to be the way that I do it, along with a number of other set up changes that were actually addressed in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

So in an effort to keep this misunderstanding from happening again I am now considering altering my signature to the following.

While I have made every effort to ensure the accuracy of the above statement I assume no responsibilities for errors, omissions, or damages therein caused.

Rick - not to keep beating on you, but are you sure that's how you do it? I'm wondering if you've had this verified by Trackman or Flightscope, etc.. This is more of a curiosity for me as the more I learn about ball flight physics the more I question some of what I've been told over the years. Joe Mayo (from the video) suggests that ball flight with the driver is determined 90% by the face angle. So theoretically hitting a ball that truly starts right of the target line that then draws left should actually be easier to accomplish with a slightly open face and an inside to out path than it would be by trying to close the face before (or during) impact.

Again...since having witnessed first hand (video & other analysis tools) that what I think I'm doing and what I'm actually doing are very different things, this is a point of curiosity for me (as opposed to me trying to tell you wrong about how you think you personally hit a draw).

I don't think we've strayed too far off topic. Spin is spin. Of course, what I think is true is backspin doesn't counteract sidespin, a flatter axis does.

More loosely related, this relatively simple concept of a spin access makes it much easier to understand why uphill and downhill lies behave the way they do.

[revkev]

Alright I'm the nub here - this is a very intriguing question for me because I'm wondering how much of a factor the ball plays in spin rate off the driver and longer clubs and how much that difference actually causes in curvature when the ball is tilted on its axis as it spins.

Given the relatively small difference in spin rates off the driver between all types and models of golf balls I wouldn't think it would be all that much. Proline balls are not the balata babies of our youth - they don't spin all that much more than their two piece friends but is that additional spin enough that I shouldn't be recommending a proline ball to my middle handicapper friends? I always do, they rarely listen and then they wonder why they struggle so around the greens - of course some practice there or a lesson might help too.

In regards to the original question I'm not as conversant as to which shaft will help produce the desired results but I do wonder about the fitting vs. the flipping - If a player were using the wrong equipment could that not be a partial cause for the flipping? I'd think the solution would be to do both - take lessons and during the course of the lessons get fit or make the desired equipment change according to the recommendations of your pro and your fitter.

[RoverRick]

GolfSpy T, on 17 May 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Rick - not to keep beating on you, but are you sure that's how you do it? I'm wondering if you've had this verified by Trackman or Flightscope, etc.. This is more of a curiosity for me as the more I learn about ball flight physics the more I question some of what I've been told over the years. Joe Mayo (from the video) suggests that ball flight with the driver is determined 90% by the face angle. So theoretically hitting a ball that truly starts right of the target line that then draws left should actually be easier to accomplish with a slightly open face and an inside to out path than it would be by trying to close the face before (or during) impact.

Again...since having witnessed first hand (video & other analysis tools) that what I think I'm doing and what I'm actually doing are very different things, this is a point of curiosity for me (as opposed to me trying to tell you wrong about how you think you personally hit a draw).

I don't think we've strayed too far off topic. Spin is spin. Of course, what I think is true is backspin doesn't counteract sidespin, a flatter axis does.

More loosely related, this relatively simple concept of a spin access makes it much easier to understand why uphill and downhill lies behave the way they do.

With the irons, I have only been able to hit draws and hooks and bigger hooks, and "Elmer Fing Large" hooks, until I changed shafts to the X100s and the C Tapers XS. I have has some luck recently with fades. Tee shots with irons before that were basically a prayer of how far left I wanted it to go. Usually praying that it stayed inside the tree line.


But I am possitive that for the last couple of years before EVERY tee shot with driver, fairway metal, or hybrid, and the past couple of weeks with irons. I deside if I want a fade or a draw. I decide where I want to start the ball and where I want it to end. I pick one side or the other of the tee box, rarely picking the middle. Then if I am going to hit a draw I move the ball ball back in my stance, inside the shirt logo, and move my trail foot back 4 to 6 inches, and take a practice swing and focus on turning my hands over, I think about if I were driving the cart and want to turn left I would turn the steering wheel to the left. The harder I want the ball to turn the further back in my stance I put the ball and the harder I "turn the steering wheel". As far as the swing, I do not really adjust the swing, because I have worked hard to have an inside to out swing. And not come over the top. I still do that occassionally and do pull the ball but usually no more than once a round, and often not even that. I am not the longest driver in the world but I am almost always in the fairway. I also try to focus on hitting the ball a half an inch towards the toe of the driver in the center of the face.

To hit a fade, I move the ball up further in my stance and outside the shirt logo. I move my right foot back about 4 inches, and focus on holding off my finish. While with a draw, I will finsh with the club pointing down over my left shoulder, but with a fade I will finish with the club pointed up.

I have tried to focus on swinging out to in with a fade and that causes me to double cross myself and hit a pull hook into double bogeyland.

I also decide if I want to hit it high or low. This is simply a matter of adjusting my spine and thus shoulder angle. A low shot, I have more level shoulders and a high shot I have my left shoulder higher.

Have I varified this with a Trackman or something, NO. I was shocked when the SkyCaddie guy showed up and mapped the course, no one will come here with one of those. I can hear the guys at the club now, "I hope you got enough wire to hook to the ball, cause I'm a gonna hit it a fur piece." (I hope you read that with the proper redneck accent.)

As I have stated in other post, after the drive to the closest Trackman, and I do not think it is a Trackman, I never have my best swing so I have not even thought about it. Besides, for the same reason I have avoided looking at the video you posted until after I write this, it really does not matter what the club and ball are actually doing. I make these changes and the ball flies the way I want it to.

I have also worked with some friends and had them make the changes in set up and they also can now move the ball around. One guy went from a 106 to 83 in two weeks just because he stopped hitting his drives into the woods, OB or water. But he does not stop to think about every shot and now is reverting back to his old ways. (thank goodness because he was killing me with the bets.)

We have not strayed too far off topic now, because the topic has evolved to this. But in my first statement which did in fact change the direction of the topic.

Uphill and downhill have an effect on the shoulder level realive to the flight path. In order to make proper contact, it is advised that you match your shoulder level, spine ange, to the slope of the ground. This should have little effect on side spin, because that is determined by face angle. However, downhill will deloft the club, and uphill will add loft to the club. Yesterday I had a sever downhill lie 50 yards from the green and a pond between me and the green. I had to swing down the hill to hit the ball. I laid my 60 degree wedge against the slope and could tell that I was not going to have enough loft to clear the other bank, so I lined up and told the guys that I had dirt on my ball that I thought would make it not roll to the hole so I was going to wash it before I got to the green. I took a full swing with the 60 it skipped off the water twice and hit the upslope and bounce up on the green and rolled 8 feet from the hole. I knew that the ball would be spinning so hard that it would skip off the water. Well, I hoped that it would skip off the water.

Sidehill has a greater affect on the left or right spin of the ball.

[jmiller065]

Well, for me personally I try to use a square face to the target and my path changes the shape. Doesn't always happen that way however

You can hit a straight shot 3 different ways (in the trackman data that I posted before towards the bottom.) this means you can hit a draw and fade a lot of different ways.

[RoverRick]

revkev, on 17 May 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Alright I'm the nub here - this is a very intriguing question for me because I'm wondering how much of a factor the ball plays in spin rate off the driver and longer clubs and how much that difference actually causes in curvature when the ball is tilted on its axis as it spins.

Given the relatively small difference in spin rates off the driver between all types and models of golf balls I wouldn't think it would be all that much. Proline balls are not the balata babies of our youth - they don't spin all that much more than their two piece friends but is that additional spin enough that I shouldn't be recommending a proline ball to my middle handicapper friends? I always do, they rarely listen and then they wonder why they struggle so around the greens - of course some practice there or a lesson might help too.

In regards to the original question I'm not as conversant as to which shaft will help produce the desired results but I do wonder about the fitting vs. the flipping - If a player were using the wrong equipment could that not be a partial cause for the flipping? I'd think the solution would be to do both - take lessons and during the course of the lessons get fit or make the desired equipment change according to the recommendations of your pro and your fitter.

I spin the ball too much with all my clubs, except wedges, can not have too much spin (IMO). This was robbing me of distance. The recent addition of the GD Tour AD DI 7 has gotten me many yards because it killed the spin. The heavier shaft has also helped in my control. Enough so that it has had a ripple effect in my bag. I replaced my hybrid graphite shafts with KBS Hybrid steel shafts. These have now been called sniper rifle clubs because of my ability to hit them long and straight. My 3 wood has been expelled completely. I am testing iron shafts now, and until tonight , I have KBS C Tapers that are extremely accurate. They may be too stiff for me and I notice that if I play more than 18 holes the distance really suffers, which is why I am trying some KBS Tours for the next week, I have to really be on my game to take full advantage of the XS shafts. That is why I am trying the KBS Tours in Stiff. That and I got a set for $100 so why not.

I had a flipping problem. My problems were not caused by the wrong equipment. It was most likely caused by poor swing mechanics. Starting the swing with the shoulder, caused me to flip and expend most of the energy too soon. I videoed myself with the iPhone and put it on the computer and identified the problem. I then stated focusing on hitting with forward shaft lean. Hitting down on the ball. But I also had a flawed grip. I found that I had stop worrying about what I was doing wrong, and learn how to do it right. Starting with the plan, the grip, the stance, the waggle, the backswing, the thru swing etc... (yes, I think you need to have a plan before you pick up the club to make the shot so it goes before the grip)

I will say that the weak shafts that I was using, which were recommended by someone that does it for a living, obviously all you have to do to be a golf "professional" is derive your living from the gold industry, but this is another story. The shafts did not cause my problems, but once my other problems were solved, the shaft problem became more evident.

You list your equipment here and from the looks of it, it is fairly modern, it is something that is playable by someone of your skill level, and it is fairly balanced. You may need to be refit later on but it is more important to have the proper mechanics. I can play a decent round now with the scrapes of clubs found in the garage with proper mechanics. But I could not play well, with poor mechanics and a brand new $4,000 set of clubs.

[jmiller065]

Sorry OT: Rover you might just be in-between the flexes or fit into S+ a little better, soft stepping the X-Stiff one time might help some. You can kind of look at this basic fitting and get an idea KBS Tour XS plays a lot differently then C-Taper XS with the different tip design and stepped vs stepless feel --> http://kbsgolfshafts...system-overview

Back on topic, I think that both the RPMs and degrees are a bit confusing, RPMs might be simpler to understand because it is directly related to the backspin.
170mph ball speed at 13* launch angle with -5* & 2500 RPM is -231 RPM where 3000rpm back spin is -261 RPM, a degree angle is static RPMs are not, so it is a little easier to translate into shot shape with the degrees over the RPMs.

What is interesting is that on both +5 and -5 everything holding the same 2500 RPM, 170mph ball speed was 3 yards longer carry then 3000rpm on the Optimizer. So that tells you how much you can lose per 500 RPM of spin as a high swing speed player. -5* @ 3500 rpm, 170mph ball speed is only a 277 carry where, the spin reduced by 1000RPM is 293 carry +16yards just from reducing spin

[RoverRick]

I reduced my backspin by probably more 2000 rpms on the driver, not real sure because I have not hit both drivers on a LM but I went from 240 yards to 275 yards average, and simply changed equipment. However, this was after I fixed my flawed swing mechanics.

If you put new 20 inch rims and tires on an 84 Caprice Classic you still have an 84 Caprice Classic.

[well01]

RoverRick, on 17 May 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

I reduced my backspin by probably more 2000 rpms on the driver, not real sure because I have not hit both drivers on a LM but I went from 240 yards to 275 yards average, and simply changed equipment. However, this was after I fixed my flawed swing mechanics.

If you put new 20 inch rims and tires on an 84 Caprice Classic you still have an 84 Caprice Classic.

Lol...you must have some super human skills to know how many rpms you reduced on your driver without being on a LM. Saying you reduced by more than 2000 rpms is kinda ridiculous. I guess you could of had the worst fit driver in the world, completly changed your impact angles, and switched to the best fit driver in world.

[RoverRick]

well01, on 17 May 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Lol...you must have some super human skills to know how many rpms you reduced on your driver without being on a LM. Saying you reduced by more than 2000 rpms is kinda ridiculous. I guess you could of had the worst fit driver in the world, completly changed your impact angles, and switched to the best fit driver in world.

That was based on what I saw using different shafts but not this shaft on a LM. The lighter more flexible shafts, that were recommended spun in the 5000+ rpm range, but the heavier Fubiki K I tried was 3000+ range. The Tour AD DI 7 really reduces the spin and instead of the hit and stop that I have grown accustom to it rolls several yards, looks like 20 or 30 from the tee. I have a much more penetrating ball flight also.

I also saw a reduction from 6700 rpms on the LM with a 6 iron to 4300 with the C Tapers. Still have no issue with it running off the green. Now I get maybe 5 yards roll with a 5 iron and a hop and stop with a pitching wedge, vs hop and stop 5 irons, and hop and back up with a pitching wedge.