[Moecat]

http://www.scotsman....urses-1-2308855

WHEN Tom Watson says he’s about to get up on his soabox, you can almost feel your ears pricking up in anticipation.

And, though he may have been digressing as he did so during an interview about Turnberry and his exploits there over the years, the five-time Open champion certainly came out with some interesting observations about the length of modern-day golf courses and, more significantly, the challenge they provide for the average golfer.

“I don’t have a problem with people building new courses; what I do have a problem with is people building courses that aren’t playable to the majority of people,” he declared. “Don’t build courses that are so difficult that the average player has no fun playing them.”

With both feet now firmly planted on that soapbox, Watson highlighted an initiative that was launched in America last year by his good friend Barney Adams, the founder of equipment manufacturer Adams Golf. Called ‘Tee It Forward’, its goal is to help golfers have more fun on the course and enhance their overall performance by playing from a set of tees best suited to their abilities. By playing from forward tees, Adams wants to see amateur golfers have the chance to play the course at the same relative distance as a touring professional would over 18 holes. The playing field is levelled by giving golfers the opportunity to play from distances that are properly aligned with their abilities.

You can see what Adams is trying to achieve when Watson, a man who knows exactly what he is speaking about when it comes to any matter related to the Royal & Ancient game, reels off some statistics. For example, he pointed out that the average club that professionals hit in for their second shot at a 460-yard par-4 is an 8-iron. Yet, he added, the majority of club golfers are struggling to get up with a driver followed by a 3-wood at par-4s measuring just over 400 yards.

“Far too many par-4s are playing as par-5s for the average golfer. On a daily basis there might be five or six par-4s that they can’t reach in two. That’s why Barney wants people to take a hard look at making golf more enjoyable for those players,” observed Watson. “When you’ve got courses that are too long, it’s no fun to play and it also slows up the game. So let’s do what Barney is suggesting by playing it forward. That way the average golfer can play a game more like the pros as they will be hitting irons into greens rather than 3-woods.”

Plenty out there will surely know where Adams and Watson are coming from on this one. I certainly do. Last year, for instance, I played the West Course at Wentworth, where the great and good of European golf are gathering for this week’s BMW PGA Championship, and found it way to difficult. I’ll admit my ten handicap doesn’t really reflect the standard of my game very often these days but it’s not often I’ve come off a golf course, especially one that enjoys a magnificent setting and is in tip-top condition, feeling as though it wasn’t enjoyable.

Surely that has to be the first box you need to tick every time you come off a course, though one trip to Spain a few years back did remind me that people obviously have different ways of getting their kicks from the sport. It was one of those courses where you stood on some tees and had difficulty seeing a fairway. It was also a lost ball even if you strayed a few feet off the cut stuff.

The bloke I was playing with lost a bucketful. Yet, walking up the fairway after sending another one sailing off into the rubbish, he turned to me and declared: “I just love this course!” I wasn’t capable of offering a reply that would have kept the rest of the round sociable, so didn’t come up with one, but I’m still shaking my head to this day wondering why?

Watson said he’d been thrilled when, during a visit to Lytham a couple of weeks ago, he looked out of his hotel room to see a par-3 course nearby was “loaded with kids” who were clearly enjoying themselves on a layout that was suited to their abilities. “It’s about setting up the course the way it’s supposed to be,” said Adams of his initiative. “If I hit a bad shot with an 8-iron, it’s going to be much easier to find than a bad shot with a hybrid or a fairway wood.” Hear, hear!

[RoverRick]

We are remodeling our course and bringing the water into play more on 8 and 9 and 16,17, and 18. This is an effort to first moderize it and so that a match is not over until the 18th hole. Anyone can easily drown a golf ball now, well not now, but in July. The point is there are many people complaining that it will be unplayable once this is done. I do not think so but the effort is to make it a more strategic course and take the driver out of the hands of the long hitters. I applaud this effort. I love holes and courses where you are better served to hit the fairway than a 300 yard drive. I am playing in two hours and plan to use the driver twice on the front and three times on the back. (Which are actually the same for now but different tees.)

[Tyk]

Most courses I've played have many different tees ranging from 5500-7000+ yards. So I don't really think the problem is the golf course itself. Some people can't seem to play a course from anything other than the tips. They want to "get their money's worth" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Just last week we were waiting on the first tee watching a two some of twenty something golfers tee off. 2nd guy dribbles two balls off the tee and is teeing up a 3rd when I told him "Dribble another and you're moving up a box". He didn't but still. . .

Golf courses need to be more proactive in both advising people on what tees to play and enforcing pace of play issues resulting from people playing from the wrong tees for their ability.

[GolfSpy Frank]

Tyk, on 22 May 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Most courses I've played have many different tees ranging from 5500-7000+ yards. So I don't really think the problem is the golf course itself. Some people can't seem to play a course from anything other than the tips. They want to "get their money's worth" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Just last week we were waiting on the first tee watching a two some of twenty something golfers tee off. 2nd guy dribbles two balls off the tee and is teeing up a 3rd when I told him "Dribble another and you're moving up a box". He didn't but still. . .

Golf courses need to be more proactive in both advising people on what tees to play and enforcing pace of play issues resulting from people playing from the wrong tees for their ability.

I agree with you. There needs to be somebody on the course to help advise people to change tees to resolve the pace of play issue. What happened at my home course is that one member was advised to move a tee up because he said he was not having as much fun as he did when he was younger (he is in his late 60s early 70s). When he did that, he started to tell the rest of the members how much fun he is having. Because of this, the majority of the members who are older moved up one tee and love it. That is all that they were talking about at the pub on Saturday. People need to realize that they will enjoy the game more if they are playing from the right tees. Not only will it reduce the amount of stress on themselves from always being in trouble and having to make difficult shots, but it also reduces the stress of everyone else who are trying to patiently wait for these guys to play. Golf is a relaxing game, and each and every golfer has to do their best to keep it that way.

[barbajo]

Whenever I visit Denver I love playing Fossil Trace. It's a great track and before you tee off they usually ask you how far you hit your driver and your handicap and direct you to the suggested tee box. They have five sets of tees, and the course can play anywhere from 5500 to 6800 yards, more or less- and in my experience their suggestions have been dead on.

[Tyk]

We had a similar issue at our course FLV. We allowed the 60+ guys to move up a box. At first, none of them wanted to, until a couple of them did and started hitting greens and making birdies again. Now most of them are having a blast again. I had an even up bet today with a 73 year old. He played the 2nd tees and I played the tips. I took him for $2 and it was a fun bet. We are considering taking the age restrictions off and just letting people declare their tee box at the beginning of the year. By our rules, in order to play a tee, a member must have played 75% of their rounds from that tee. That keeps the guys that are eligible from playing back usually and then moving up for the tournaments.

[jmiller065]

I think as an over all concept 'play it forward' is a great idea. However I see two main issues with the idea so I don't know how successful it would be when left in the hands of someone to 'pick their poison' so to speak.

1) golf is a male dominated sport still. With men you get egos and testosterone in regards to 'competition'
--> I don't know how many times I have had people play the tips just for the fact that I am playing them, they would never do it otherwise
--> I do not play the tips for my ability in terms of handicap, I play the tips for my ability in distance off the tee. If I went by handicap suggestion at my course then I would be playing one or two tee boxes in front of the tips but they would not present a length challenge for me.
--> I hit a down winder on a 428 yard par 4 with a 19* hybrid smoked it big high power draw around the corner to 100 yards left (might have gotten help from the cart path a little not sure blind shot from the tee box dog leg left) nothing like a 328 yard 2 iron , the point I am making is if you hit a 250 yard ball with a driver you are going to have a LONG day playing from the tips.

2) the golf course is under staffed to enforce peace of play and tee box suggestions they make
--> my course has GPS on the carts that sends peace of play to the club house, they can push messages to the carts but that doesn't mean players will pay attention. Also this is a great idea if you take a cart I walk and well if no one comes out to say something or check on walkers then you are screwed anyways.


I don't like that courses have handicap suggestions on the card, lets be honest how many people even keep a handicap that are not avid golfers, to most people it is some obscure number. I think it would be better if they have average scores or even driver distance, but driver distance is normally grossly over estimated by average players. I heard one beginner talk about how on number 2 at my club (down hill dog leg left) someone was 50 yards from the green and it was a 400 yard drive... come on do the math, 378 if they were on the tips big drive more then likely it was from the white tee which plays 383 or a 333 yard drive either way a big drive but not 400 yards on that hole. I have yet to see a true 400 yard drive on the course, seen a couple 380s from Bubba Watson but not a 400 yard blast.

I think average score is a better suggestion on the score card then handicap or driver distance as more people would understand that and probably follow that range of average scores.

[Shambles]

I think it's better to tee off where the fairway hazards are in play more often. You get to use more of your bag, you get more alternatives of which club to tee off with, you get a greater choice of landings preparatory to your second shot. Essentially you're playing Golf that requires thinking.


Shambles

[JohnBarry]

Course...mens tees and womens tees...done

[JBones]

Tyk, on 22 May 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Most courses I've played have many different tees ranging from 5500-7000+ yards. So I don't really think the problem is the golf course itself. Some people can't seem to play a course from anything other than the tips. They want to "get their money's worth" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Just last week we were waiting on the first tee watching a two some of twenty something golfers tee off. 2nd guy dribbles two balls off the tee and is teeing up a 3rd when I told him "Dribble another and you're moving up a box". He didn't but still. . .

Golf courses need to be more proactive in both advising people on what tees to play and enforcing pace of play issues resulting from people playing from the wrong tees for their ability.

A week ago I would have completely agreed with you, but then I met Jake. Jake is a 15 handicap, but he hits the ball Bubba long. The course we were playing is 7200yds from the tips. At the start, he admitted that he should be playing the middle tees (there are 5 tee boxes, ranging from 7200-5100), but he didn't want to just hit driver/SW all day (of course, I made a comment under my breath, without seeing his game). On the first hole, I hit one right down the center at about 285, he stepped up and hit one about 40yds right of the fairway, but it went about 340. This went on all day and he played to his 15 handicap, which he said he would have done hitting driver/SW all day anyway. I shot a 3 over 75 and he said he would give up anything to be 280-290 in the fairway, like I was all day; 10 years ago when I hit the ball stupid long, I used to say the same thing.

The point of this story is......where do you draw the line? Do you base it off of handicap or length? I know guys who are 2 handicaps, because they are stupid long and I know guys who are 2 handicaps, but they are short hitters and make up for it by having amazing short games. You really need to put it in the hands of a ranger and leave it up to him to enforce it on the first tee. Or better yet, just give everyone free range balls and have a ranger there, select what tee box a person will play from. I know neither of these are really feasible, but it's better than whats going on now.

[jmiller065]

JohnBarry, on 23 May 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Course...mens tees and womens tees...done

I think having multiple tee boxes is the answer to enjoyment of all golfers. I think the education on what tee box to play needs to be better and that starts at the course with starters making suggestions and the course giving recommendations based on more then just handicap. I don't really think a gender separation for what tees the Ladies should play is the answer either. The LPGA players Drive the ball past the average guy should they be forced to play a tee box based on gender absolutely not. The stipulation of age and gender on tee boxes needs to go and I think that is what Tom Watson and 'play it forward' is all about, plus leaving the ego at the door when picking a tee box.

My home course holds a ton of Junior Tournaments out here through the year and one Carolinas Golf Association (CGA) Tournament, here is the CGA stats on the tee boxes for both women and men. 'Ladies Combo Tee' is not a physical tee it is a blend of white and blue. I see the ladies golf team practice from the blue tee a lot, bet the makes some dudes feel a heck of a lot less mainly playing the white tee but it's whatever those ladies on the golf team also hit it longer and are better golfers then the guys on the white tee.

Front 9
  	                Rating/Slope 	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	F9
Men's Black Tee 	73.9/141 	456 	430 	395 	160 	399 	400 	573 	173 	493 	3479
Men's Gold Tee 	        72.6/135 	443 	417 	385 	151 	383 	389 	554 	156 	479 	3357
Men's Blue Tee 	        70.9/129 	434 	411 	375 	137 	368 	379 	540 	143 	465 	3252
Men's White Tee 	69.6/122 	415 	393 	360 	129 	348 	364 	498 	123 	453 	3083
Men's Green Tee 	66.6/118 	390 	361 	340 	113 	305 	347 	387 	115 	337 	2695
Ladies' Gold Tee 	79.4/146 	443 	417 	385 	151 	383 	389 	554 	156 	479 	3357
Ladies' Blue Tee 	77.5/139 	434 	411 	375 	137 	368 	379 	540 	143 	465 	3252
Ladies' Combo Tee 	77.1/137 	434 	411 	375 	137 	368 	379 	498 	143 	465 	3210
Ladies' White Tee 	75.3/135 	415 	393 	360 	129 	348 	364 	498 	123 	453 	3083
Ladies' Green Tee 	72.2/126 	390 	361 	340 	113 	305 	347 	387 	115 	337 	2695
Men's Handicap 	  	                4 	6 	10 	18 	12 	8 	2 	14 	16 	 
Men's Par 	  	                4 	4 	4 	3 	4 	4 	5 	3 	5 	36
Ladies' Handicap 	  	        3 	5 	11 	17 	13 	7 	9 	15 	1 	 
Ladies' Par 	  	                5 	4 	4 	3 	4 	4 	5 	3 	5 	37


Back 9
  	                Rating/Slope 	10 	11 	12 	13 	14 	15 	16 	17 	18 	B9
Men's Black Tee 	73.9/141 	454 	573 	181 	405 	550 	216 	402 	439 	455 	3675
Men's Gold Tee 	        72.6/135 	441 	538 	167 	375 	535 	206 	386 	425 	442 	3515
Men's Blue Tee 	        70.9/129 	411 	510 	138 	355 	497 	178 	380 	414 	427 	3310
Men's White Tee 	69.6/122 	349 	461 	130 	328 	467 	154 	356 	395 	404 	3044
Men's Green Tee 	66.6/118 	271 	393 	120 	287 	407 	122 	307 	328 	358 	2593
Women's Gold Tee 	79.4/146 	441 	538 	167 	375 	535 	206 	386 	425 	442 	3515
Ladies' Blue Tee 	77.5/139 	411 	510 	138 	355 	497 	178 	380 	414 	427 	3310
Women's Combo Tee 	77.1/137 	411 	538 	138 	355 	497 	178 	356 	395 	427 	3295
Ladies' White Tee 	75.3/135 	349 	461 	130 	328 	467 	154 	356 	395 	404 	3044
Women's Green Tee 	72.2/126 	271 	393 	120 	287 	407 	122 	307 	328 	358 	2593
Men's Handicap 	  	                11 	13 	15 	9 	17 	5 	7 	1 	3 	 
Men's Par 	  	                4 	5 	3 	4 	5 	3 	4 	4 	4 	36
Ladies' Handicap 	  	        14 	2 	16 	6 	4 	18 	12 	8 	10 	 
Ladies' Par 	  	                4 	5 	3 	4 	5 	3 	4 	4 	5 	37

[jmiller065]

JBones, on 23 May 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

The point of this story is......where do you draw the line? Do you base it off of handicap or length? I know guys who are 2 handicaps, because they are stupid long and I know guys who are 2 handicaps, but they are short hitters and make up for it by having amazing short games. You really need to put it in the hands of a ranger and leave it up to him to enforce it on the first tee. Or better yet, just give everyone free range balls and have a ranger there, select what tee box a person will play from. I know neither of these are really feasible, but it's better than whats going on now.

Interesting concept, I agree with you, you really can't go off handicap because it depends on why you are the handicap you are. I am a low handicap mostly because I hit it a long way don't have a great short game at all. If you go off the distance people THINK they hit then it is an issue as well.

I really think that is a good idea with the free range balls and having a starter select the tee, but that is dependent on the fact people show up early enough to even hit balls, I don't know how many times that I have seen people on the weekend drive up in the parking lot 5 minutes before the tee time.

I think it really needs to come down to more education from the golfing community specifically golf courses and starters. I don't think handicap is the correct answer to make a tee box selection. I don't think gender stipulations is the correct answer obviously. I think that golfers need to become more aware of there TRUE distance and select a tee based on that.

[Tyk]

That is completely right guys, it really isn't about length so much as ability, I've always thought that. Really, once you get your handicap down below a certain level (say 15 for argument's sake) then you are probably capable of getting around most golf courses from most tees effectively. They might not score well when they get too far back, but they probably aren't going to lose 10 balls and aren't going to back up the golf course doing it. And that is what all of this "tee it forward" and such all boils down to imo, pace of play. Its a nice and reasonable way to try to convince people to move up and play where they aren't going to screw up everyone else's round behind them. No one truly cares if a guy wants to go shoot 150 from the tips if he can go do it in 3.5 hours.

It really does come down to effective golf course management. The courses have to be proactive in policing the players on the course, they need to identify the problem groups and ask them to pick up and advance, to move up tees, and at some point they have to be willing to ask people to leave.

I realize public courses are very loathe to drive off paying business. I have always thought though that a course that allows such disruptions to happen (my course is very guilty of this, its a real problem), the courses that get known for 5 hour rounds on the weekend inevitably drive off way more business than they would if they became known for aggressively enforcing a reasonable pace of play. The trade off to me is pretty obvious. You drive off or reform the golfers you don't want there and that probably only play a few times a year anyhow, and you increase the enjoyment for the guys you do want there, golfers that will return more often when they realize they can play in under 4 hours on a weekend.

So really, its all about time. If you fall behind, you need to be told once to speed up. 2nd time, you are asked to pick up and move to the proper position on the course and move tee boxes. 3rd time you're out.

[Shambles]

Pace of play does not necessarily improve with forward tees. That's mostly a matter of the golfer, his attitude and how much he knows of his game. You can play within the rules and still be sinfully slow, even from the forward tees.

I recommend the forward tees where warranted, for the benefits they give if the golfer is fit for them. Mostly you see this in how much of the bag gets used, or should have been used.


Shambles

[RoverRick]

I do not have time to read all of these excellent posts today, that pesky job is interferring with my play time and I do not particularly like it. I was a big fan of the "play it forward" theory until yesterday. There are two guys at my club who are there every afternoon. I knew they were "higher handicapers" and "slow players" but yesterday I joined them for 9 holes. They played from the tips. And it would have made absolutely no difference. These guys were like the Golf Channel video. They absolutely sucked. On one par 4, 335 yards, he did not go in the water, out of bounds or lose a ball. He sunk a 30 foot putt to card an 8 from just off the green. This was his best score of the round. I made absolutely no difference how far he started from the hole, he would top it and chunk it at the same time.

His partner asked him one time on a putt if he could see the hole, and it was all that I could do not to say, "See the hole? Hell, can you see the ball?" but I did not. I played with them because I am working on my mental game also, and wanted to play with someone slow, with lots of distractions so that I could practice "getting in the moment" and out of it and back in to it better. I shot a 38 which is much better than typically happens with slow players.

But some people it would make no difference. Would they score better from the shorter tees? I have no idea but these guys were not just higher handicappers. They were bad golfers, but great guys. I had a good time but it was all I could do not to start giving lessons, but I make it a practice to keep my mouth shut unless asked.