[wdgolf]

Phil,

First of all, thanks for commenting on these forums. I love when shaft makers or people with extensive backgrounds into club answer our questions.

For your shafts, do you PURE them first and then mark the logo? Or is this something you recommend all customers do for graphite shafts? Once I get the OK on my budget, I've been intended to talk to you about the mid launch PD-80 fairway wood shaft (though I need to get my numbers first).

[GolfSpy T]

I don't have any data to support any argument one way or another. If Phil says he's got it, then I believe him. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is a clear visible difference in the oscillation patterns of a club that has been Spined and Flo'd, and one that clearly hasn't. How much of that translates to on course performance, again, I can't say.

Like the Shotmaker insert, it's more or less about eliminating shaft deformation during the swing. I takes less than 5 minutes to spine and Flo a shaft, so I do it on most everything I build (exception being my driver where I haven't had time to figure out the proper setting yet, so...it is what it is for now. I figure if there's no actual benefit I've lost nothing, and if there is, then I've got myself covered.

What I can tell you is that not every OEM (and by extension not every PGA Tour Pro) has his shafts spined, flo'd, pured, etc. While there may be some that do it as part of their standard build, some leave it up to the player to make the request.

Believe it or not...the same is also true about frequency matching shafts. Guys like Tiger demand it, but if the player doesn't request it, they don't get it (although with Tour Issue shafts consistency is part of the equation anyway).

[BK in Wisconsin]

wdgolf, on 08 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

However, spine finders are not very helpful for graphite shafts because there could be multiple NBPs, so FLO has to be use to find the "true" NBP.

I have to disagree with that. Occasionally I have found a graphite shaft with more than one NBP "plane" (plane = 2 NBP opposite each other), but the vast majority of graphite shafts I've spined have just the one plane. The shafts I've run across that felt like they had more than one NBP, in every case, one of the NBP's felt "stronger" (actually weaker or bending easier, but that's just semantics) than the others.

Using the spinefinder isn't Rocket Surgery. Just use common sense. Feel for the position the shaft wants to flex the easiest, and there ya go. On most shafts, the NBP is obvious, others make you feel for it a little closer. FLO could get you closer in some cases......sure.....but I wouldn't discount a NBP found with a spinefinder as wrong.

[GolfSpy T]

BK in Wisconsin, on 08 June 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

I have to disagree with that. Occasionally I have found a graphite shaft with more than one NBP "plane" (plane = 2 NBP opposite each other), but the vast majority of graphite shafts I've spined have just the one plane. The shafts I've run across that felt like they had more than one NBP, in every case, one of the NBP's felt "stronger" (actually weaker or bending easier, but that's just semantics) than the others.

Using the spinefinder isn't Rocket Surgery. Just use common sense. Feel for the position the shaft wants to flex the easiest, and there ya go. On most shafts, the NBP is obvious, others make you feel for it a little closer. FLO could get you closer in some cases......sure.....but don't discount a NBP found with a spinefinder as wrong.

In my experience the NBP is almost never aligned with the point that produces the most desirable oscillation pattern (Flat line). That said, it's usually pretty damn close (a few degrees in either direction). For that reason, I start by finding the spine, and then use that for a starting point when I twang the shaft.

[RookieBlue7]

wdgolf, on 08 June 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Phil,

First of all, thanks for commenting on these forums. I love when shaft makers or people with extensive backgrounds into club answer our questions.

For your shafts, do you PURE them first and then mark the logo? Or is this something you recommend all customers do for graphite shafts? Once I get the OK on my budget, I've been intended to talk to you about the mid launch PD-80 fairway wood shaft (though I need to get my numbers first).

I can answer this one, as I do have a lot of experience with his shafts. Every one of them has had his MOI Optimization process completed on it individually. They're marked with two things, a dot of paint on the shaft as well as a shaft band with dots on it. These dots are always in the same place (meaning the dot of paint is directly above the MOI Optimization logo, I'll take a few pics of a few shafts to illustrate this). These dots are meant to be installed at the 12:00 position (meaning the dots will be installed where, at address, they're on the top of the shaft). The graphics on the shaft do not always come up on the top or bottom of the shaft, but he does have 360 degree graphics so looking down, you do not notice this anyway. I've got one here that the MOI optimization puts the graphics toward the target slightly. I don't worry about the shaft's graphics(never have), just about where the dots on the MOI optimization logo are located on his shafts. I'm certain he does the process after the shafts are painted as if they weren't, the graphics would be in the same position on every shaft when MOI optimized.

Here's the pics, I tried to capture the paint dot in correspondence with the red and yellow shaft, hopefully it shows up on the red shaft in the two pics I took, you can clearly see the paint dot above the band on the yellow shaft. Also, pay no mind to the tape showing below that leather grip, I'm testing it out on my driver and didn't remove the build-up from the old grip because it's likely going to be slipped back on. You should also be able to see that the graphics don't always line up with the MOI optimization which leads me to deduce that the MOI optimization is done after painting, and individually on each shaft.

[wdgolf]

RookieBlue7, on 08 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

I can answer this one, as I do have a lot of experience with his shafts. Every one of them has had his MOI Optimization process completed on it individually. They're marked with two things, a dot of paint on the shaft as well as a shaft band with dots on it. These dots are always in the same place (meaning the dot of paint is directly above the MOI Optimization logo, I'll take a few pics of a few shafts to illustrate this). These dots are meant to be installed at the 12:00 position (meaning the dots will be installed where, at address, they're on the top of the shaft). The graphics on the shaft do not always come up on the top or bottom of the shaft, but he does have 360 degree graphics so looking down, you do not notice this anyway. I've got one here that the MOI optimization puts the graphics toward the target slightly. I don't worry about the shaft's graphics(never have), just about where the dots on the MOI optimization logo are located on his shafts. I'm certain he does the process after the shafts are painted as if they weren't, the graphics would be in the same position on every shaft when MOI optimized.

Here's the pics, I tried to capture the paint dot in correspondence with the red and yellow shaft, hopefully it shows up on the red shaft in the two pics I took, you can clearly see the paint dot above the band on the yellow shaft. Also, pay no mind to the tape showing below that leather grip, I'm testing it out on my driver and didn't remove the build-up from the old grip because it's likely going to be slipped back on. You should also be able to see that the graphics don't always line up with the MOI optimization which leads me to deduce that the MOI optimization is done after painting, and individually on each shaft.

Thanks for clearing that up. I can't say I've ever actually looked for these dots or lines, but will pay more attention to it. I have more questions about the shafts themselves, but I'll ask in the other thread to not hijack this one.

[wdgolf]

BK in Wisconsin, on 08 June 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

I have to disagree with that. Occasionally I have found a graphite shaft with more than one NBP "plane" (plane = 2 NBP opposite each other), but the vast majority of graphite shafts I've spined have just the one plane. The shafts I've run across that felt like they had more than one NBP, in every case, one of the NBP's felt "stronger" (actually weaker or bending easier, but that's just semantics) than the others.

Using the spinefinder isn't Rocket Surgery. Just use common sense. Feel for the position the shaft wants to flex the easiest, and there ya go. On most shafts, the NBP is obvious, others make you feel for it a little closer. FLO could get you closer in some cases......sure.....but I wouldn't discount a NBP found with a spinefinder as wrong.

I'm just basing on what I've read, so thanks for clarifying what you've found. Most of what I read is similar to Tony's experience where you find the "best" spine, then FLO. However, if there are marks on the shaft already there for you, I'd rather trust the manufacturer honestly since apparently how it's clamped changes things...

But as you said, I do agree spine finding is better than doing nothing.

[Golf is my Passion]

ptalamonti, on 08 June 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

3:00 / 9:00 are indeed the same when it comes to installing respecting the NBP or similar as it places the "strongest" part of the shaft in the droop position (6:00). And this would be true whether the player is RH or LH.

Thank you for the confirmation Phil, you are too generous with your time!

[ptalamonti]

RookieBlue7, on 08 June 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I can answer this one, as I do have a lot of experience with his shafts. Every one of them has had his MOI Optimization process completed on it individually. They're marked with two things, a dot of paint on the shaft as well as a shaft band with dots on it. These dots are always in the same place (meaning the dot of paint is directly above the MOI Optimization logo, I'll take a few pics of a few shafts to illustrate this). These dots are meant to be installed at the 12:00 position (meaning the dots will be installed where, at address, they're on the top of the shaft). The graphics on the shaft do not always come up on the top or bottom of the shaft, but he does have 360 degree graphics so looking down, you do not notice this anyway. I've got one here that the MOI optimization puts the graphics toward the target slightly. I don't worry about the shaft's graphics(never have), just about where the dots on the MOI optimization logo are located on his shafts. I'm certain he does the process after the shafts are painted as if they weren't, the graphics would be in the same position on every shaft when MOI optimized.

Here's the pics, I tried to capture the paint dot in correspondence with the red and yellow shaft, hopefully it shows up on the red shaft in the two pics I took, you can clearly see the paint dot above the band on the yellow shaft. Also, pay no mind to the tape showing below that leather grip, I'm testing it out on my driver and didn't remove the build-up from the old grip because it's likely going to be slipped back on. You should also be able to see that the graphics don't always line up with the MOI optimization which leads me to deduce that the MOI optimization is done after painting, and individually on each shaft.

Rookie: You're correct about my current lineup of shafts being MOI Optimized post-paint, thus the graphics falling randomly about the shaft's circumference. Future models will have an orange paint dot on them coming out of the factory, with that mark being the prescribed 12:00 assembly location. Knowing that folks do other things to shafts analysis-wise, combined with the fact that OEM tip adapter adjustments change the orientation location of the shaft into the club head, I'm going with true 360* graphics on all my new shafts. That way, no matter how they are installed, the graphics will look pretty much the same.

[ptalamonti]

Golf is my Passion, on 08 June 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Thank you for the confirmation Phil, you are too generous with your time!

You're welcome. I like helping when I can and love the personal interaction with players.