doubleduhric

26 days since I joined up here, just noticed I'm approaching 1000 reputation. I want to mark the occasion with a few (more than a few) thanks and shout outs.
@GolfSpy_APH @GolfSpy_BOS@Golfspy_Lukes @Golfspy_TCB @GolfSpy_SAM @GolfSpy MPR
and all the other mods, too many to list, thanks so much for maintaining this wonderful place and making a welcoming environment.
@Golf2Much @Peaksy68 @vandyland @snicerz and all others posting scores and interacting in the Virtual Tournaments, thanks for posting up scores constantly and pressuring me to play better. I will wear the black jacket this week proudly, knowing I won it against such fine people. I promise I will update my handicap index April 1.
To @Connorn2 thanks again for carrying the load and winning us that 2 ball tourney. More virtual hardware for both of us in the future, I hope.
@cksurfdude @EasyPutter @sirchunksalot @IndyBonzo @chisag @cnosil and all the other daily contributors, you all make this all happen as much as anyone. Happy I could join up with you and help build out this sanctuary for our golf ramblings. Thanks also for liking my content so much, it makes me feel liked. I like you all, too.
On that note, a short side story: shout out to the bartender at my local haunt for the impetus to be so active here.
I had a bar I went to 4-5 days a week. The beer was cold and cheap, the pool table was crooked but good enough to play on. The food was horrible but tolerable and quick to arrive the half the time the staff didn't let it sit while they finished socializing.
The bartenders were all dating each other or other employees. The customers were secondary to the employees having a fun hangout. Pretty basic dive bar.
I would go there after golf and chat about my round with 3 or 4 guys I also played pool with. One day one of them brought his boss, a fat blowhard who exaggerated everything he said (He built half the houses in the wealthiest town in my area) and wanted to interrupt everything I said, talking over me to the guy who worked for him. After 20-30 minutes of tolerating him, I told him off, got a little loud and expletive-filled in my speech, but stayed calm and seated the whole time.
The bartender in question, who had exchanged #s with me saying let's golf with a 4 month one-way dynamic of me asking and him making an excuse, comes over and says something to the effect of my mouth is going to get me in trouble. I look over at the bouncer, who I've had more pleasant conversation with than this kid who is paid to entertain me, and I curse him up and down the block. I started with the C word and got worse from there. My tab was paid so I walked out, bartender followed me out and we cursed more in the parking lot.
The following day he texts me a long diatribe on how pathetic I am and no one wants to hear/interact with my long winded, one sided personality. I'm a loser and it should be a wake up call.
So it was. Going there 5 days a week I was as big a loser as him. The fact I was paying and he was getting paid made me the bigger loser. 
Now I play golf and I come home to tell this forum about it. It's so much healthier for me, I feel I've actually helped my chances at longevity. It's not healthy to be around addicts who roll their eyes at everything you say that doesn't involve alcohol, drugs, or sex.
So, long winded one-sided rant over. Looking forward to many more to come.

@Jnoble89 GREAT REVIEW! I found iron covers from @craftsmangolf this fall for the new set...FANTASTIC fit. Easy to find, Easy on, Easy off, Excellent construction. My only comment; a stronger magnetic closure would be ideal...although probably not necessary. At times they don't fully close and can pop open, but this may subside entirely with age and use as the material softens. As for texture... I tried to show it in the picture but this version was spot on to the OEM look from my fairway and driver. Great compliments on the course!
 

Yep, agree on all acounts.   
They do make a solid argument, and they do have a vested interest as you point out.  
And you are correct, I can bet there is a ProV1-T somewwhere behind the locked doors of Ball Plant 3 🙂
 

Actually they did last year. 🙂
 
And we still had a guy break the home run record.  Athletes are getting bigger and stronger, that's not changing.  Even if you were to roll everything back to 1990 you could still fine tune those clubs and balls to get more out of them than they got back then.  Are you going to say that guys can't use trackman to practice and fit?  How would you legislate that?  
 
To me Golf seems very health right now on all levels.  I understand that you can never stand still or you go backwards but when something is healthy radical changes aren't necessary.  We've had tournaments won with a winning score single digits under par as well is mid 20's under par thus far this season.  I don't think it's gotten too easy.  
 
I did think that the response to the press release today was a collective - "Thanks for all you do but no thanks to this one.  We'll pass."  As DaveP wrote none of this is a surprise.  It's been talked about some the 1980's.  They should have done it then when they had the chance.  If this was that big a concern at least.  Instead of this they should forward look, consider what might come next, what might be good or bad for the game and legislate that.  

baseball is also implementing a clock, can we do that in golf too 😁

Baseball has changed the ball in recent years to combat distance 

Maybe now you have two different handicaps!

I will give another example of something similar. In curling (yes the game with rocks, brooms and yelling) in 2016ish teams were using fabrics on the end of their brooms that were very abrasive. These broom heads and with powerful sweeping teams could essentially direct the stones where they wanted them by creating scratches in the ice. This had never been done before and it then became more useful to use one vs two sweepers. 
Traditionally sweeping served two purposes, to make a stone go further and to make a stone go straighter. Now you could slow a stone, make it go further, make it curl more or less etc. 
The TEAMS (as curling is not a association like golf) decided that this was essentially cheating (it also damaged the ice). The governing bodies (World Curling Federation and Curling Canada) then did a whole years worth of testing and ended up creating a rule where in competition leading to world championships a specific fabric had to be used. (Hair brooms were also outlawed) With this fabric it was proven that directional sweeping was ineffective and sweeping was back to normal per say. 
Some teams had an uproar about it, but now 6 years on from that ruling all players even at a social club level use the same competition approved broom heads for play.  They are the only ones sold now and in rare cases you may see an older brooms heads used in fun play, but its rare. 
However teams still want that edge, so there are two thoughts even with these new broom heads. Brand new ones teams still believe they can make a stone curl one way or another so they change every game (they are not allowed to change mid game). Or some teams have found that dirty and very worn broom heads also may help them become more abrasive or effective and use old ones. 
Point being high level athletes will still look and find advantages where they can. It is part of the nature or sport and trying to get better and being the best. So rolling back the ball sure it will help, but there will be other ways golfers will find speed and distances one way or another. 

You can shape the ball with SGI irons but ,as said above, they usually are high launching which can make it harder to hit knock downs.  Also, SGI irons usually give you less spin which will equal less curvature.  Working the ball is an interesting topic with modern golf balls which are designed to spin less the harder they are hit.  There seem to be only a few pros left who will put large curves on their shots.  Most play a small draw or small fade.  I loved watching Bubba Watson curve irons shots.

The thoughts for consideration are...
 
I find it noticeably more difficult to consistently shape shots, or hit a variety of shots properly, with today’s tech maxed out for distance and forgiveness (talking to the title here). What's your take? Have you had an opportunity to play a variety of club designs? Would a properly 'fit' club/shaft/grip (regardless of style) significantly assist the average golfer in a similar way with an increased advantage for real game improvement? This with the idea of learning 'how' to hit different shots within your game, where and when needed? Anyone here have real experience with the opposite? I've always assumed I would move to game improvement and super game improvement when my back stopped rotating quite as smoothly. Trying like hell to stay young. 
My take: Golf is a lifelong game and that alone is one of the best reasons to commit and practice. Practice anything and you will see improvement. Shot shaping isn't only for professionals. With the right friend, coach, or lesson it can be a valuable addition to your arsenal. Everyone has their reasons. I prefer to play as traditionally as possible, whenever possible. 

I have a natural high fade. In my experience with gaming Cleveland Ta3, Ping G25, Titleist T200 and my current Callaway Apex '19, my dad's Ping g700, rogue st max and pro that I tested, I've noticed I have a consistent flight path left to right with high launch when I swing correctly. My pulls left will stay left and my toe strikes will make a banana shape to the right, but when I make a good swing and start at my target the path is usually up and to the right to the apex of the shot's height then straightening as it tumbles over.
I went through a phase where I tried to hit a draw. I read a golf Digest article by Tiger about how he does his 9 window drill and the swing mechanics behind how he hits each of the 9. The results were more inconsistency in my game, so I ditched the effort and went back to playing my stock shot all the time. It's still something I'll practice with at times at the range or warming up at the indoor place.
What helped me most about this exercise and what I took away and actually incorporated into my game is Tiger's simplified process for controlling the height of the ball. To paraphrase "When I want to hit high, I finish high with my hands above my head. A low shot my swing finishes with my hands at shoulder height. Hit it high, finish high. Hit it low, finish low. I don't move the ball much back and forth in my stance."
Now I'm at the point I can do a 6 window drill. Those other 3 windows I would definitely have to spring for a lesson or 2.

Oh I totally agree about amateur golfers in general. I was just adding to your comment on the physics of the swing path verses face angle. If more golfers understood that they would hit better shots. 

Most people that fit into GI and SGI clubs need all the help they can get helping the ball in the air.  The amount of amateurs that think they hit the ball too high when in reality they hit it too low is extremely high
I get what you're saying about having more shots at your disposal, but most amateur golfers with double digit handicaps can't groove one consistent swing, much less 9

Agree, the only caveat is that the super game improvement clubs will generally flight the ball higher by design. They say to really be a great ball striker you need to be able to hit nine different shots on demand. A High, a mid and a low trajectory fade, draw and straight shot. Having the skill backed with the equipment that allows for this action within your individual skill level is the key.   

Agree 100%,  with an unobstructed shot,  I simply hit "my" shot into the green.  I'm not good enough to try fading to one pin location or drawing to another, and my opinion is that "most" people will only bring more difficulty to themselves trying to do this.  I did however learn the basic set up for hitting a fade or a draw, from Tom Watson's Strategic Golf, and use it regularly to bend or draw around the trees in front of me, when in a bad location, mostly with 4 and 5 iron!!

The thoughts for consideration are...
 
I find it noticeably more difficult to consistently shape shots, or hit a variety of shots properly, with today’s tech maxed out for distance and forgiveness (talking to the title here). What's your take? Have you had an opportunity to play a variety of club designs? Would a properly 'fit' club/shaft/grip (regardless of style) significantly assist the average golfer in a similar way with an increased advantage for real game improvement? This with the idea of learning 'how' to hit different shots within your game, where and when needed? Anyone here have real experience with the opposite? I've always assumed I would move to game improvement and super game improvement when my back stopped rotating quite as smoothly. Trying like hell to stay young. 
My take: Golf is a lifelong game and that alone is one of the best reasons to commit and practice. Practice anything and you will see improvement. Shot shaping isn't only for professionals. With the right friend, coach, or lesson it can be a valuable addition to your arsenal. Everyone has their reasons. I prefer to play as traditionally as possible, whenever possible. 

I don't really have a "stock shot" off the tee or iron shots.  I try to play everything straight, so maybe that's my stock shot but I can fade it, draw it, push or pull.  I don't hook or slice (although I used to many years ago).  What shot comes off my club depends on how my body is feeling and my L.O.F.T.  🤪  So I try to hit the ball straight at my target; a fairway or middle of a green and that seems to minimize any miss.
Yes, I know how to hit a fade and a draw, but I will do so only if that is my best choice of shot from a bad location.  I generally make that decision based on where the ball would go if I hit it straight, because when I try to hit those shots I may not pull it off and the ball will go dead straight.
I will say that I have a much easier time hitting SGI irons straight, but I went back to my MacGregor MB irons because I can hit them straight and have a better chance to hit that fade or draw when needed.

I'd say that the straight shot is your stock shot.  Sounds like you always try to hit that shot;  the fade/draw/push/pull are just the variances that happen with shots.  

IMO that's a large difference from trying to work the ball. I joined a new club 6 years ago, went from drawing/hooking the ball off the tee to playing a fade due to course routing. Now my shape off the tee is a fade. I would consider working the ball trying to hit the ball different shapes during a round, ie a draw to a back left pin (RH) or a fade to right pin. Scoring in golf comes down to reducing mistakes. It is hard enough to play one shape consistently let alone trying to add different shots. On top of that there is little statistical evidence that working the ball improves scoring over the long term. For everyone other than Tiger you are just adding more variance.

DO NOT TRY TO WORK THE BALL!!!!!

Slight push back. 

Why not? I have spent the good part of this early season going from a draw which turned into a nasty hook being my naturalish shape to now playing a nice fade. This is in large part to the course I play which suits that shot shape and at least for me being really punished by those hooks. Since I have really worked on this I have gone from loosing 3-4 penalties off the tee per round to 1 in the last 3 rounds and that was my own stupidity. Learning to shape or work this has really helped my game. 
I agree that playing your natural shape is often so beneficial. However learning how to play different shot shapes can help better understand your swing and there will be the odd time it could be required. 
Now trying to work it left this shot, right the next... etc yea that is too much in my opinion. 

Agree with the 'stock shot' being the go to. You can hit fades and draws... but with the same desired outcome?? I find spin rates drop (a lot) and the trajectory is.. just.. very different. Maybe its all practice, adjustment, and comfort. Given the whole 'life long' consideration, maybe I should switch before my back stops working!!

The thoughts for consideration are...
 
I find it noticeably more difficult to consistently shape shots, or hit a variety of shots properly, with today’s tech maxed out for distance and forgiveness (talking to the title here). What's your take? Have you had an opportunity to play a variety of club designs? Would a properly 'fit' club/shaft/grip (regardless of style) significantly assist the average golfer in a similar way with an increased advantage for real game improvement? This with the idea of learning 'how' to hit different shots within your game, where and when needed? Anyone here have real experience with the opposite? I've always assumed I would move to game improvement and super game improvement when my back stopped rotating quite as smoothly. Trying like hell to stay young. 
My take: Golf is a lifelong game and that alone is one of the best reasons to commit and practice. Practice anything and you will see improvement. Shot shaping isn't only for professionals. With the right friend, coach, or lesson it can be a valuable addition to your arsenal. Everyone has their reasons. I prefer to play as traditionally as possible, whenever possible. 

I think it is okay to practice hitting different shapes, but the general on course strategy is to hit your stock shot.   People often refer to Tiger and his 9 shot drill; but when playing unless he needed to,  he played stock shots.   One of the foundations of DECADE is never try to work your driver;  you can try to work your irons but probably better not to.  
As for the original question,  people slice and hook game improvement clubs just as much as players type clubs.   During most wanted testing,  I can attest to the face that I can hit fades and draws with those clubs.  As for improving your game;  IMO, it is probably best to focus on a stock shot and the only working of the ball should be trajectory and not shape.
 

IF you aren’t going to hit them to see which is better for you I say buy the cheaper ones and apply the $400 in some other way: lessons, range balls, more rounds of golf, etc.