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Posts posted by JMiller

  1. I'm having a weird random problem with body alignment. This happen from time to time.


    I set my club face down to target, then I align my feet parallel to the target line. Took my shot and the ball goes to target accurately, but I know it's a slight pull from the divot direction.

    Places a stick down my feet line and I'm aiming right of the flag.


    Now I place the stick for my feet down parallel to target line and I feel like my body is aiming way to the left.

    Took my shot and the ball still finds the flag.


    Any experience some of you can share about the body alignment? I tend to aim my body at the flag or right of it even when I thought it's parallel to the target line.

    I figured that I would let someone else chime in first because I'm not technically a teaching professional this is not really my section / topic to be in.




    Please don't take this the wrong way I just want to give a little general advice on tips/ instruction.


    When I work with Bruce Rearick, regardless of what I know about my swing I still shut up and listen to what he has to say and I like to pick his brain about my swing and general concepts. As a player you have to trust an instructor if you are going to ask for advice and work with a person on your game. It is completely counterproductive to tell an instructor how much you know about something, just take it as a learning experience and a different perspective. A second pair of eyes is always a good thing, when I work with Bruce Rearick on anything in my own game, I listen and ask productive questions to understand more about what I am told. If you are not sold on an instructor's knowledge ask the simple question of "why should I make that change?" If they don't have some kind of good logical answer for you then do not take that advice and find a different person to work with.


    The reason that I am saying this is that I feel like I attempted to help you last year and well it really sounds like nothing has changed in your swing since the last video you posted.




    Think about how a pull has to happen:

    ~ face square to the path

    ~ path is outside to inside to the target line



    The last time we talked you have a two-plane (vertical) and a lot of one-plane (rotational) downswing. You either get stuck (push or draw/hook = flipping into impact), or cast over the top to get the club out in front of you coming outside to inside the line (slices, pulls, something that starts left)



    You have two options because it sounds like the same swing I looked at last year:

    1) change your backswing to a one-plane rotational swing

    2) change your downswing to be more lateral slide and less rotational to match the vertical backswing



    Nothing is easy to change obviously but for me when I was making swing changes over the last year or less myself the backswing positions are easier to hit then the downswing sequence changes. This is likely because the backswing takes roughly 3times longer to make then the downswing does. The downswing just happens a lot faster.



    Good luck with the swing.

  2. Thank you.


    When I try to really rip a drive, I usually hook it. This would be because my arms are so far ahead of my body?


    Well think of it this way.


    Well think about it, if your hips don't rotate this leaves the shoulders closed, your arms can get out in front of the body rotation causing the club to come inside to outside, where the face is positioned to the path is where the ball will end up. Closed to the path = draw / hook, square = push, open to the path = push cut/ push slice.


    You can hit a ball putting you butt/ back pointing at the target placing the ball to your lead side (left side on RH golfers) then make a pure arms swing and hit the ball straight to a draw or hook. If you make good contact there is not really a way that is going right unless you have rotated your body out of the start position. This position is actually a release drill a instructor in college taught me.


    This video pretty much explains the drill well and what happens in a draw and slice.



    If the body leads the club into impact it is going to create a outside to inside path.

    If the club leads the body it will create a inside to outside path.


    You just have to control the face to the path to hit shots, if you over cook one then just learn to time the combination of the two to tone down the curve.

  3. Having had very little success at shaping a shot, I'm just gonna go ahead and ask............. how do you hit a fade and a draw........... on purpose?


    I can hit a draw much easier than a fade because it seems to be natural for me. There are numerous occasions where I would love to fade the ball, but I just can't figure out how to do it. The same goes for a draw even though I have a bit more success with it. Any help would be much appreciated.


    You are likely to get a lot of different answers here for everyone that might respond. Everyone seems to have a different FEEL on how to shape shots. I can offer only what I have experienced in the one-plane swing and Hybrid plane swing now to shape shots and what I know / feel about my swing.



    Swing more with the arms then the body. The arms have to lead into impact to get inside to DTL or inside to outside.

    Hybrid-plane >> My weight sift stays back a split second longer the hip rotation feels very passive, the arms swing freally in front of the body.

    One-plane ~ rotational hips are still there but my arms felt like they did more work them my body.



    Swing more with the hips / upper body, less with the arms. The hips / shoulders lead into impact with the arms passive.

    Hybrid-plane >> My weight shifts forward a little sooner, my hips rotate a little sooner pulling my shoulders open and outside to inside, I hold off the release of the head a little as well.

    One-plane >> I just ripped as hard as I could with my hips and upper body holding off the release a little.



    So really for me in two different models "arms lead into impact in a draw, hips / body lead into impact in a fade".

  4. Thanks JM, I completely agree. And I also know that to see any real improvements I need to transfer 'what I know' into 'what I do'. That's the challenge as I see it. Thanks also for linking the articles, I'll have a read through them this evening.




    If you dig threw all Bruce's articles, you will find him talk about "verbalize your swing". If you can write down the sequence of motion that you make to hit good shots then you will have a good idea of what is going wrong or right in your swing. Knowing how to correct it is a different beast all together :)

  5. Hey all,

    Broke 85 for the first time ever yesterday (45,39 for an 84). New course for me and it was a bit up-and-down (my ball striking), which is fine as I know that I have a good deal of room for improvement:



    I rushed three short (~2ft) putts trying to 'finish them' - probably should have learned from the first missed one, but didn't... I need to make a conscious decision to employ the same routine over putts IRRESPECTIVE of length I think. I also chunked a handful of chips, so those two areas are definitely top of my practice list from now on.


    All-in-all, very happy to have broken 85 and have a renewed enthusiasm!


    "Good shots are a matter of knowing the process to make the shot. Without a process the swing is random. You can't judge random." ~ Bruce Rearick (Burnt Edges Consulting) ~ Lession 144


    Golf is a repetitive game, If you don't have the same process before every putt / swing then how can you know you did everything in the same way? Here is a good article from Bruce about a consistent swing >> http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2011/07/finding-consistent-golf-swing.html

  6. To Enter Tell Us:

    • Your handicap
    • What fairway wood(s) are in your bag right now
    • What hybrid(s) are in your bag right now


    GHIN: 3.2


    Fairway: 16.5* Tour Edge Exotics CB3


    Hybrid: 19.0* Tour Edge Exotics CB2


    I play a 4wood because I'm ballz-ier then the rest of the posters ;)

  7. Well that depends on if you want the swing weight permanently put into the head or temporary put onto the head.


    I have a Scotty Cameron Newport 2 that weighed in at 332g, my builder put in 8g of tip weight bringing it up to 340g roughly, then I added 5 rubber tungsten weights to the cavity (3 across the back where Titleist is stamped and 2 on the bottom one on each side of the line in the bottom cavity) to add another 10g of weight to the head. In the end I added 18g of weight to the head to bring it up to 350g, anymore then that it would take more then tip weights and rubber tungsten weights as I'm almost out of room on the head to put weight.


    I would probably recommend letting a professional figure out how to get the swing weight you are after espesually with the amount of weight you roughly need to add.

  8. Here is a link to the Rifle Q&A where they give the weight and loft of the Aussie putter >> http://www.rifeputters.com/faq/


    Weight ~ 335g

    Loft 1.5*


    Yes swing weight will change extending or cutting down the shaft.


    ~ Subtracting 1/2” in length decreases 3 swingweight points.

    ~ 2 grams is approximately 1 swingweight point in the head end of the club.

    ~ 5 grams is approximately 1 swingweight point in the grip end of the club.


    So reducing it by 2" to keep the same swing weight you would have this roughly:

    ~ 12 points less then originally.

    ~ assuming no component changes then you need to add 24 grams of weight to the head to keep the same swing weight.



    To really be able to do this properly you need to pull the shaft clean the hosel from epoxy and have the component weights of each piece of the club. If the head starts at 335g then adding 25g would put it up to 360g.


    If I recall correctly Scotty Cameron Newport 2 follow the following scheme:

    ~330g @ 35", ~ 340g @ 34", ~350g @ 33" so it would be ~360g @ 32"

  9. jmiller065,


    Thank you for the response, any and all information is appreciated.


    Through the end of last summer I was hitting my driver as well as I ever have and what seems like just all of a sudden I have completely lost it. I have spent the last month or so trying all sorts of tweaks to my swing to see if I can find it again with little to no success so I am desperately looking for help anywhere I can get it!


    I think what hurts majority of mid to high handicaps is two main things

    1) They have not a clue what swing style they are naturally

    2) They take every bit of advice they can get and it almost always makes them worse.


    Here is something to read understand and then figure out what swing style you are and only take the advice that fits that style:



    Are you a one-plane, Hybrid, Two-plane type of swinger? All three have drastically different down swing sequences that need performed properly to hit the ball consistently.

  10. I have what may be a simple question but amongst my fellow hackers I get varied answers:


    Should a golfers Driver / Woods swing be the same as the irons swing?


    Some guys tell me the swing should be the same, other tell me the swing with the driver or woods should be more of a flat sweeping swing than the irons.


    I admit that I haven't asked this of a Pro just fellow hackers so that should qualify the information I have so far.


    Anxious to see what you have to say....Thanks!

    I know this is a really late response but... I'm not a "pro" but I have a little insight into this...


    Assumption that you have to proper lie angles and shaft lengths in every club then the following would stay the same

    ~ Posture (I don't see many really good golfers set up with more hip bend in wedges then they would on a Driver, it's the same)

    ~ Source of motion (I don't see tour players change their one-plane swing on a driver to a two-plane swing on a wedge it's consistent)

    ~ Tempo (I'm a 21:7 roughly now that I change my swing I was a 24:8 when over-swinging. Tour players tempo come out ot be about 3:1 ratios there have been a couple at 2.5:! or 2.75:1 but it's repeatable)

    ~ Grip position (Majority of people find it easier to keep the same grip and twist the club face open or closed before gripping it for specialty shots, sort of like a bunker shot twist face open THEN grip the club naturally)


    Some things that change slightly:

    ~ Stance width (stock is 2" outside the hip sockets, some might stand a touch wider but not by a lot for longer clubs, or shorter irons a little closer)

    ~ Ball position (Assuming stock is the LEAD EYE or LEAD CHEST PEAK, you might move the ball one ball length forward or one ball length backwards depending on the shot, anything further forward then one ball you probably need a tee and that's where tee height comes into play.)



    Something that does change:

    ~ the distance you stand away from the ball based on the shaft length.

    ~ where the club makes contact with the ball in the swing arc (angle of attack)

    ~ A lot of tour players extend the arms out more on the driver then they do their irons

    >> If you look at address, hip bend, knee flex is the same but from the shoulders to the handle the irons are straight down on the "Y-Axis" or close to it, on the Driver you get a little angle / extension about 2 to 4" roughly.



    I'll use two videos of Mr. Woods as examples you could probably do this with any good player:

    Tiger Woods Driver >> youtube.com/watch?v=GyRPcn0E-bc

    Tiger Woods Iron >> youtube.com/watch?v=Gfkqwy6oi9s


    ~ Different at address by arm extension only on the Driver.

    ~ Different at 1/2 way because iron has more wrist cock already. Body is in same positions practically.

    ~ Different at the top because iron is not at the length of arm swing at the top but body positions are almost identical.

    ~ Impact positions are slightly different from ball position and angle of attack but hips and shoulders are rotated almost identically.



    In short you don't need two different swings for different clubs, so the plane explanation is really wrong all the way around that the plane on a wedge is more upright then a driver.

  11. I sorta of don't agree with the people here talking about how you don't really need them if you are not building them to a specification. Almost every iron I have ever seen as a stock swing-weight number attached to it. Normally it is something like D1 or D2, however because of manufacturing process there is no way they will be EXACT, the head weight has built in tolerances.


    For the most part heads will likely come in on the LIGHT side of things on error more often then heavy side, assuming the stock says D2 you are likely to find heads / swing weights that range from C9 to D2. Really, even if you are looking to keep them at manufactures specs exactly you will likely need the tip weights. The exception MIGHT be if you are getting the heads off a tour van where they are already pre-weighed and designated to a swing-weight at a given length.


    You can do a calculation of what the swing weight will be based on the clubs components. Here is a document on calculations >> http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf



    No you don't absolutely have to have them but in a stock off the self pre-assembled set like you find in a golf store the swing weights 99.9% of the time will be all over the place. If you are doing the assembly yourself from scratch, you might as well get them right the first time instead of having to pull the shafts again later and re-do it.


    If you are going to buy tip weights go with brass don't use the lead tips. Lead is cheaper and works fine but brass is nicer to work with and probably would last longer. You are likely to trash or sell the clubs before either would go bad though.

  12. Sorry OT


    Interesting that local areas would have a senior age rule of 55, The USGA / PGA Consider "Senior" tournaments to be 50, all of the Mid-AM are 25 and older.

    USGA Am Championships --> https://champs.usga.org/index.html


    I think I would complain to the people running it in FL and tell them their rules don't match the USGA standards of 50 rather then 55 ;)

  13. Well, I have not played much lately, played once on Sunday at a new course the day before an AGJA event was scheduled to be held for 4 days on the course. The greens were in great condition, the fairways were tight not real wide, a lot of tee shots were blind.


    I only had 1 PS on a blind Tee Shot That I thought I had hit perfectly, it was a par 5 slight dog leg left I started it up the left edge with a cut, it hit and saw it bounce straight, little did i know a straight bounce was a bad thing as it caught a massive slope left of the fairway and went into a lateral hazard left that I didn't have a clue was their I ended up making double bogey Had a bad case of the hooks right when we first started, sort of go their late and came out cold, not really a hook a duck hook. Grinned the front 9 for a 41, grinned the back 9 for a 40, it really probably should have been a 38 or 39 on the back but a couple sloppy bogey later oh well. At least I had 3 birdies in the round to help offset a few of the mistakes I made from never playing the course before, It was a good track next time I play it I would have to expect that I could crack 80.


    The thing that sort of screwed me up for awhile was the feel of what my wedges were doing, I felt like I made a 3/4 swing with a 60* it went 105 yards, I felt like I made a 3/4 smooth swing with a 56* it went 115 yards. Normally they would go 10 yards shorter, I don't know I finally made the adjustment after 7 holes. Made Birdie on 8 with a wedge to 5 feet from 91yards. Short game didn't do that bad either, mostly just issue off the tee and missing a green in the wrong spots not having played the course ever and going in blind completely you have to expect that a little.

  14. RR I know you asked James but, I just wanted to toss something out for talk and discussion.


    Ben Hogan (One-plane), Tiger Woods (Hybrid-plane 2000), Jack Nicklaus (Two-Plane), I would have to say that all of these players were extremely successful in their careers but had drastically different top positions. There really isn't a single "proper top position" the golf swing is very dynamic and fluid.


    The amount of pelvis rotation and slide combination is determinate on the top position in which the golfer finds them self in which is proper position for them. A one-plane swing needs mostly all hip rotation and no lateral slide towards the target. Two-plane needs mostly all lateral slide towards the target with little hip rotation. Hybrid is some combination of the two depending on the person.


    As my signature says from a comment I made on MGS before --> Golf is not one fit all. You have to know your swing sequence to match it with advice. The number one thing that hurts a lot of golfers is that they don't know what advice to take and what advice to leave on the table based on their swing.

  15. 3. Research Early Extension. I've seen a lot of students who think they are coming too far inside and getting "trapped" are actually victims of this little known swing fault. Here's some more info.


    Wouldn't this be one cause of a shank? Assuming of course the hands get pushed in towards the ball more along with the hips. I would have to think even 1" to 2" would cause a inside miss to shank on a shot from this issue.

  16. Man if I had the answer to that question JMiller I'd be rich.


    For those of us who work day jobs I think that stress of life plays a huge factor in how we play. Are we able to forget about what happened at work or is it sitting there just beneath the surface? If you do anyting physcial (obviously my job isn't physical but for me it could be lifting my daughter wrong) sometimes that tweak is just enough to through the tempo/timing of the swing off.


    The bigger thing though seems to be putting - when that's on the score comes regardless of how well I hit the ball - at least at the level I'm at - I don't hit it far enough to get into that much trouble there. Honestly my entire game is designed to allow my putting to shine - so long as it does or at least semi-does - I'm fine - when it goes south and sometimes it does and who knows why - well then it's all over.


    I think dru_ suggested drinking to take the edge off, I don't drink on the course and really don't drink that much in life in general mostly for personal reasons that I don't feel like sharing with the world. I don't see the use of alcohol a good way to relax your emotions and mind, it can turn into a need to drink to be able to function over the long haul.



    Well, I work on Friday's and don't work on Saturday's I shot the better score after work and not on the weekend, I felt like Tiger Woods on the weekend on a major, I'm good to go on Thursday and Friday but can't seem to go low on Saturday and Sunday :lol:


    Well starting with putting, I actually made a few really great putts to save par and even make one birdie on the front 9 to break 40. If anything was actually working well that day it was my putter which is a good sign as I have been working a lot with it and wanting to putt better it is finally coming around and the confidence is their when the greens are not punched and bumpy.


    Looking at my chip / pitch game it actually bailed me out a few different times in really hard situations making pars that really had no business getting that score. I think I saved 4/4 from the grass to get up and down. My Bunker game was HORRID, wet compact sand that played more like a powder, I couldn't seem to get out of a bunker and save a par to save my life that day, It cost me two of my double bogeys on the day and a bogey.


    Anything longer then a 1/4 swing was just flat off, 1/2 swings, 3/4 swings, full swings I couldn't make that great of contact and when I did make great contact it seemed that I didn't have much control on the shots. I hit a lot of fairways with what I would call "great misses" meaning that I completely miss hit the shot but it ended up in the fairway.


    I ended up not being able to play golf on Sunday or Yesterday (Monday) because my right elbow was sore as heck. I think that gave me the key to what went wrong in the swing on Saturday if i came away from the round with an injury. I feel that my right elbow broke down and folded more then 90* and started getting pitchers elbow or tennis elbow type symptoms after the round. This could also explain the bad tempo and timing, when my right arm folds to much the swing gets longer then what IO was using on Friday to shoot the great score and my timing / tempo ended up being off going into impact, a lot of late release leaks and big cuts.

  17. Golf is a funny game, one day you have it firing on all cylinders and golf is so easy. Then the next day it is a grind just to keep from drowning into a terrible score and round. We here it on the tour all the time "It is really hard to back up a really low round with another low round the next day".


    I am wanting to know what exactly makes this happen, obviously if it happens to the best players in the world it can't be something in the swing or can it?

    Anyone want to share their opinion or give advise on this subject?


    This situation happened to me recently, I played 9 holes after work on Friday shot a bogey free 3 under 33. Then the very next day on the same 9 hole stretch I scrapped it around just to shot a 39. I won't really talk about the back 9 on Saturday as it was a complete disaster. Something was different and it wasn't my mental state. The only thing I have come up with is that my tempo was just a slight bit different from Friday into Saturday, the swing positions felt exactly the same.

  18. Finally had a huge break through in my 9 hole round today... I came out after work like any other day and knew going in "well not sure how this will turn out but I'm gonna try something"... The thing that I wanted to try was keep the shorter backswing rotation I had and just get a touch extra lift with the arms... WOW it paid off big time, tempo was perfect, shots were in control and the shots i missed turned out very well. Not to mention I got it done a lot with the flat stick... So here it is ladies and gentlemen my low nine hole of my career thus far.


    A bogey free 9 hole round of 3 under par 33!!! I hit 8 of 9 GIR, 6 of 7 FIR, 14 total putts. The sick part is my 3 birdies were 2 par 4s and a par 3 I made par on both par 5s. The one hole where I missed the fairway and green was the first hole i played, missed the fairway by 3 yards bad lie, left it short on purpose, only real good bail out spot.


    Not too shabby for coming out cold and experimenting with something, I think my experiment panned out pretty dang well.

  19. "Club up, choke down, and make a nice controlled swing" could work all the way round the course!!!!!!!

    I agree completely, I think it takes a long time for golfers to finally get it in their head that you don't need to work hard in your body to hit the ball a long way, you just need good swing sequencing.


    Tour Pro talk about their reserve distance in the tank that when they need a little extra they can reach down and get a little more from it. If you are always swinging at 100% there is no way to leave something in the tank for reserve. So they have to be swinging 60 to 80% of their full potential power.


    It is always better to have a ball safe in the middle of the fairway then in a place it costs you one or more strokes to recover from. Sitting here watching The Open man you find a bunker you would be toast 9 times out of 10. Thus why a lot of people are playing fairway, hybrid, 2iron off the tee boxes on par 4s and par 5s. A ton of course management and course strategy going on this week, love to see it get talked about so much on TV as it is one topic most players don't even consider.

  20. A while ago I had a situation where the ball was top of the chest high because it was sitting on the side of a very steep hill. How would you (or any of the low cappers) recommend playing this shot?


    What I did and don't recommend is whacking at it, causing it to dribble the rest of the way down the hill, then I took a more normal shot from heavy rough...


    For a ball above my feet regardless of the amount, I see two main options to making good contact.

    1) take more club and choke down on the club some, could be choking down all the way on the steel at some points if it is real bad.

    2) take a back swing that has more rotation then vertical lift. When the ball is sitting chest high it is pretty much all rotation.


    For a ball bellow my feet I just have to add knee flex to get my body lowered to the ball making sure to keep my spine angle normal. There are times where I have had to get down onto one knee with one leg in a bunker and the other out, or even on a really bad slop getting down on both knees to get low enough to make a swing.


    In either case above or bellow your feet the worst the situation the more your objective is to make good contact and take your stroke to get it back into a more playable location. Make a very smooth swing and don't try to get too much out of the bad situation.

  21. JMiller now I understand why you were disagreeing with us about length of a round - no doubt that when you're playing a course that tough the rounds will take longer.


    I don't know that I would enjoy it all the time though - I really don't - my ideal is course rating right around 72 and slope around 130 - Break 75 and it's a nice round. I've certainly played courses with ratings of 75 and slopes over 140 and had some reasonably good scores on them (and some train wrecks). Since it's been in the news lately Blackwolf run comes to mind - the River Course is 76 152 from the tips (and it's not even 7,000 yards long). The first time I played it I shot 83 and it felt like a billion - it wasn't even that bad a round - my low of 73 there would be like shooting a 68 and the course that I'll play tomorrow - hard to imagine.


    Speaking of tomorrow I'm really hoping the weather holds - I haven't played 18 in over a month - it's been 7 years since that's happened to me. :( :( :(


    Well I don't think it is JUST the fact of a harder course, they are the best in the world at the sport after all. I think it has to do mostly with the rules of golf. It is not like in a tour event they can bend the rules a little at all for the reason of peace of play. You can't just proceed under the assumption that you know the rules, if you get them wrong in a situation it could be a penalty of 2 strokes or worse, maybe even a DQ from the tournament in some cases of rules violations. When you have to worry about a single stroke then you are going to a lot more time more often in picking shots and in situations call a rules official over to make a ruling so that you know that you don't get dinged, take Dustin Johnson at the PGA Championship grounding his club in a bunker and 2 strokes cost him a spot in the playoff.


    But that is why I don't really agree that peace of play being 5 hours in a tournament of 75+ golfers is really that slow. I would be shocked to see it even get down to 4:30 hours of play it would be great if they could do that but with the way the rules are in golf and with the huge prizes and stuff that can be made on tour it's probably not going to happen.


    Sorry for getting OT for a second their back to how'd you play

  22. Dude - that reads like one of my rounds!!!!


    Well, except for the fairways hit...


    Well shaving even one stroke playing a tee that has a high course and slope rating translates almost into I handicap point per stroke. At my home course the par is 72 and the course rating is a 73.9 with a slope of 141. I have set some goals for myself this season, and I was just venting at how poorly I played. Remove the Penalty Stroke and 4 three putts, you get my round at a 78 rather then a 84.


    I'll be honest with my objective, I want to shoot 20 rounds in a row that break 80. That sounds like a tail order but it's really not that bad. I know with my full swing coming around (evidence of 11 of 14 fairways and on a shitty day 8 GIR), I need to keep working hard on putting and short game. Here is the list of differentials for my course from the tips, when we sit here and talk about lowering a handicap espesually as a single digit it comes down to 1 or 2 strokes off the round on average. I tossed in sub-70 rounds for the heck of it so you can see what a tour pro might shot and the best scores recorded on tour.


    79 (4.1), 78 (3.3), 77 (2.5), 76 (1.7), 75 (0.9), 74 (0.1), 73 (-0.7), 72 (-1.5)

    71 (-2.3), 70 (-3.1), 69 (-3.9), 68 (-4.7), 67 (-5.5), 66 (-6.3), 65 (-7.1)

    64 (-7.9), 63 (-8.7), 62 (-9.5), 61 (-10.3), 60 (-11.1), 59 (-11.9), 58 (-12.7)


    You can only imagine that the PGA Tour probably has an average of a 75.0 rating / 145 slope from the tournament tee... I know that the Ocean Course at Kiawah Island, this years host to the PGA Champ Major, has a slope of 77.2 / 144 on a normal day. I'm pretty sure it is a par 72 course, to shoot a par round on the course would be 72 (-4.1).


    It would be interesting to see what the handicaps of tour players actually were, I have the guess that most of them are +3 to +5 roughly others have said +2 to +4, others +4 to +6

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