Pug

I am responding once again to tvgolfjunkie's post from 27 February on page 92 regarding the calories in versus calories out discussion. Before we loose sight of what this forum is all about we would be well served to remember that it is a weight loss thread. It is not supposed to be the battle of dueling experts. I'm not one when it comes to issues of nutirtion and metabolism, so I have to read a lot to try to inform myself on what may or not may work. If not careful this discussion could decend into acromony, which I would rather avoid. That said, I still feel the need to respond to specific comments made in tvgolfjunkies post. I am going to copy portions of the post so readers do not have to flip back and forth between posts. Tvgolfjunkies posts are in black, and I am replhyiing in blue. As soon as you said it's hormones and CICO is garbage, I immediately thought of Jason Fung. Remember earlier when I said to question those you seek nutritional information from... The kidney doc who studies the kidneys AND PUSHES A DETOX/FASTING TEA. (The kidneys already detox the body on their own. This is simply a product that no study has shown to be effective) https://www.piquetea.com/pages/fasting-tea This disclaimer is on this web site: **These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. ** Contrary to your statement the word "detox" does not appear any where in the article cited. He has a side line in herbal teas. Jordan Spieth sells golf shoes. Ricky Fowler shills for an insurance company, and Arnie, god bless him, appeared prepared to sell anything for anyone who paid him to do it. Promoting products does not in any way impact their reputation as golfers, nor should it. When I consider not just this comment but the entirety of this post it appears you simply have developed an antagonism for the Doctor and his support of fasting to help people who are obese or have type 2 diabetes loose weight. Is your point that herbal teas shouldn’t be used when fasting, or are you simply trying to discredit Dr. Fung? Why? More to follow.

Agree with everything you have said here, and it's home made jumbalaya for supper tonight.

Good for you. In my case family is the reason I left home! Love'em and can't live with'em.

Wish I had been able to find this when I started lurking on the site a few years ago. Working just fine for me BTW.

Update to this. Mr 82, I see your concern. I picked up the clubs and they are a thing of beauty. The company is privately owned by two women and is not a franchise. A factor in my decision to pick up the clubs is my desire to support small busines when I can. I wore gloves on both hands while I was there and when I unwrapped the clubs and disposed of the wrapping when I got home. Yesterday I heard the virus survives about 24 hours outside the body, so I expect everything will be fine. While there one of the owners came over (but I noticed stayed a good 6 feet away) and we had a conversation concerning avoiding hysteria during this difficult time. Her take away, it's serious, be careful, but it isn't the zombie apocalypse just yet, either. A comment was made by the guy who did my fitting that his mother had been in the states and that he has not seen her since she got back because she immediately self - isolated. This morning I woke up with a terrible headache. Yes, I am a hypochondriac. The change in pressure due to the change in weather overnight had nothing to do with it, I'm sure.

12 weeks, that's interesting. I can understand the 12 week isolation period from the perspective that it will take more than 2 weeks before we start to see the rate of contagion diminish. We have been ordered to work from home for at least the next three weeks, starting on the 16th of this month. The week before one of the scientists where we work said that the evidence they have now is that infected individuals will shed the virus for 20 days, or until death, if they don't recover. I do not know if his information is correct or not. I have not seen any studies directly on this yet in order to verify it. However, if it is correct the 2 week self-isolation standard is not going to be as effective as we might like and governments may need to recalibrate what they are asking us to do. 12 weeks in isolation is going to be tough. This is only the start of my 3rd day working from home and already I'm loosing whatever passes for my mind. My PuttOut is getting a good workout!

Just got a call this morning from the equipment store and my Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metals and wedges just arrived. I immediately had a qualm: should I even go to the store to pick them up? Courses aren't open and the indoor range is closed, so what's the point? We had a rather long chat since I wanted to know if they would rather I wait, which I am happy to do, and long story short I am going over but we will be taking precausions regarding contact, social distancing etc. I am assessing the risk at this time as low, but talk to me in a week.

Thanks for the explanation. I was trying to figure out what full contact checkers would look like. Or full contact Yahtzee. I can see that. I get the cramp piece. Two years ago after walking a hilly 18 holes I got dehydrated and the adductor cramp caused me to pass out. SWMBO thought I had a heart attack and called 911. I wound up with an ambulance ride to the hostitute. It was disappointing-I couldn't persuade them to use the siren. On a somewhat related note, Covid-19 has shutdown the Sportsplex. Yesterday this had me on the back porch swinging the Speedstix in -2* C weather. The things I'll do for golf.

Dartmouth, why?

For what it is worth, you have my sympathy. I am one of the fortunate ones who has been ordered to work from home. The issue for those of us with this income security is what we can do to support those in our community who have to rely on tips or commissions for a significant part of their income. The governments here are putting in place a number of economic measures to try to mitigate the damage, but we suspect it will not be sufficient to alleviate the economic loss and the damage that flows from that to individuals. It is even more difficult to just go out and spend the money at restaurants, clubs and bars when they have been ordered to close or limit the number of people who can gather. Speaking for myself, I am still looking for opportunities for what I can do. Donations to the food bank hardly seem adequate.

That's my world. Even the simulator I use was closed this past Sunday. Just when I was starting to knock the rust off. Remains to be seen what will happen with golf club openings here, since we are a month or more away from the earliest opening here in NS.

I am going to try this again. Due to the length of your post and the links you provided that I have now read this is going to be longer than I would want to put into a single post, so I am going to try to address one item at a time. I have been looking at what you have posted including the links. One of the comments you made was: In fact, I would encourage you to question everyone you get information from. Do they back up their claims with actual studies? Having gone through your post and the links, I am going to encourage you to do the same, as you will see from the posts I am going to be making in response. I'm considered overweight by BMI standards. BMI is too much of a broad stroke and doesn't account for body type. According to the BMI charts, Lebron James is overweight and JJ Watt is obese. Looking at hospital charts and tracking it solely on weight and height as the basis of the study leaves a lot of questions to be answered. Agreed. The BMI specifically does not apply to pregnant women and elite level athletes. As it happens, I am neither. However, those you referred to are. Nor does the BMI claim to be all things to all people, such as being able to predict other health issues that might be related to weight. For example it is not a good predictor for type 2 diabetes because a person can fall within a normal (i.e. not overweight or obese) weight range but still have type 2 diabetes. This applies particularly to people who have become badly deconditioned and who have reduced muscle mass. They will not register as underweight if the muscle had been replaced with fat. The condition is sometimes referred to as TOFI, thin on the outside, fat on the inside. Keeping in mind its limitations, the BMI will still give you an idea if you are overweight for your height, but it is not as good a guide in that regard as doing a waist compared to hips measurement, for example. At the same time, while it does not explicitly address different body types, it does provide a range that those body types can expect to fall within. We just should not read more into the BMI than it is intended to provide. More to follow.

With our allegedly aging golfer demographic a head to head test of the super light drivers and fairways would be interesting. Should they be their own category or get mixed in as a subset of GI and SGI categories?

I had a long reply commenting on each of the articles you provided links to, but it looks like none of it made it through our firewalls. I will try to give it another try in the next couple of days.

I just checked out the website and the nutrition book has my interest. I have 2 fitness training for instructors, a separate book on core and another on nutrition I am going to read first. I have bookmarked the site and it is likely that I will circle back to it to order the book, and thanks for the follow up.

Hi RickyBobby, I went to Indigo/Chapters to get a copy of this book only to learn it is not available in Canada. Just as well since I haven’t finished reading all of the material referred to by tvgolfjunkie in his post on CICO.

Yes, definitely I am on board with keeping the conversation going. It’s our crazy season at work, so I have to ask for patience in adding to the dialogue, but I am definitely in, if for no other reason than I think you are even wider read on this topic than I. I will definitely get back to you.

There’s a story involving the SS and the law of unintended consequences that I want to share. I have been fortunate that the gym facility I use has allowed me to use the SS in one of the workout rooms. It happens to be the space with the heavy bags, speed bags, battle ropes and some other gear for the martial arts types to train on. I show up with my skinny little butt and start with the SS stretches and not much happens. Then the magic stix come out and the sound alone garners a lot of attention and usually a couple of questions. Tim, a big guy in his forty’s is one of the trainers and usually works with the body builder crowd. He had spied the SS when I first brought them to the gym and asked me about them. So I told them what they were all about, the stretching routine and protocols and also mentioned that I used them as part of my cardio work out. That piqued his interest. I can get my heart rate up to 92-95% of my theoretical maximum but I do more reps to get there. Yeah I know, it’s more than the protocols call for and the risk is that if you do run out of gas your going to train your body to swing slower. Back to the story. Tim mentioned he was doing physical therapy with a golfer and told me he would buy a set to use with the client. I bumped into him last week while carrying the SS and we had a chat. He described how his client had a number of mobility issues. The client couldn’t rotate far enough to be able to lift the club head passed waist height on the backs swing. Tim adapted the SS as a mobility tool. He started the client lying on his back, knees bent, feet flat on the floor, rotating the SS using the arms and shoulders in a slow motion golf swing above his chest. They worked through each level of SS, then progressed to using the SS while sitting, then kneeling and finally while standing. Tim said his client has achieved a full range of motion with his golf swing. He was so impressed with the dedication and progress made by his client he gave the client the SS as a reward. I was surprised by his generosity, and he quickly added that he had already ordered another set to add to the physio equipment arsenal. So I suppose this is another example of the law of unintended consequences. I take the SS to the gym as part of my own mobility rehab and another golfer gets a set as a gift to recognize his own hard work to rehab his swing. Tim is also an occasional golfer and more importantly a good man. Just to prove that no good deed goes unpunished he is going to be invited to play with the Black Hole Gang this summer. Tim’s a bomber. Should be fun.

So to continue with the laugh of the day I did go for that fitting and it covered even more brands than I had expected. We (the fitter and I) tested Cobra, Ping, TM, Honma, Titleist, Callaway and Mizuno. Tossing out the outliers and getting down to the top 4 contenders we were left with the G710, Mavrik Max, SIM Max and the Mizuno JPX Hotmetals. In terms of total distance the SIM Max was the best and the G710 the worst by an average difference of 14 yards. It was also 3 yards longer than the Mizuno and 6 yards longer than the Mavrik. As has been observed in another context, it’s not how long you make it, it’s how you make it long, which brings me to the offline data. The G710 averaged -13, the Mavrik was-5, and the SIM was (gasp) -14. And the Mizuno? Drum roll please: +1 yard offline. For comparison my current Aeroburner was +8. So yes, the SIM was 3 yards longer than the Mizuno but with the SIM being -14 yards offline compared to the Mizuno’s +1, you know I plunged for the Mizzies. The other fitter only had Miura, PXG and KZG clubs. PXG are more expensive than I am prepared to go. As for Miura, I can only dream about hitting blades. That left the KZGs. We tested using the 6 iron and a variety of shafts. Now here’s the punch line: the best result with KZG 6 iron was 10 yards shorter than the Mizuno 7 iron. I can’t provide a valid offline comparison other than to note 66% of the shots were an average of about +7 with the KZG. The actual dispersion ranged between -11 to + 12 yards. Shorter and wider, and I’m not talking about my figure!

Hey txgolfjunkie, It is going to take a long time for me to reply to each of your points because you have given me so much to read. Thanks for supplying the links. Let’s just deal with the one I have had the chance to take a look at so far. You made the comment: Here he is pushing IF as a cure for cancer, but there is no study to back that up. So I read the article and that is not actually what he says, and I suggest anyone interested do the same. In the article the suggestion is that the research of Dr. Thomas Seyfried suggests that 7 day fasts may reduce the inflammation that a great deal of science indicates is a cause of cancer. It doesn’t say IF cures cancer. It’s a long step from possible prevention to a cure. The other thing I would question is, if the research of Dr. Thomas Seyfried isn’t a study, what is it? You may want to read it again. I still have to read each of the other articles you provided links to, plus I need to get the book by Dr. Layne Norton that was recommended and apparently has a great deal of information on calories. Fat Loss Forever I think it was called. I will be looking for that today and it will take a bit of time for me to read that as well. I do plan to get back to you on each of your other points, time permitting and just not all at once. Cheers!

Today is moist, but only in an unpleasant February North Atlantic gale kind of way. No golf here for at least another 6 weeks and that is probably optimistic.

I really appreciate the quality and thoughtfulness of your response. I will definitely take the time to dig down further on the information you have provided. However, saying I referred to CICO as garbage is a bit hyperbolic, but I do have to take responsibility for not elaborating further in my post regarding circumstances when CICO is successful and not. No excuses, I didn’t take the time to elaborate or refine the post. My concern is similar to yours regarding over simplified thinking regarding health and weight control. I welcome your criticism and the continuing effort by you and other contributors to this thread to advance the conversation.

Thanks for the reference and I will do. There’s always more to learn.

I knew someone would have to ask but didn’t have the references at my fingertips when I posted this comment, for which I apologize. Although there are other references on this topic, see: Fildes A, et al. Probability of an obese person attaining normal body weight: cohort study using electronic health records. Am J Public Health. 2015; 105(9) e54-e59. I would also refer anyone interested to the most “ambitious, important nutrition study ever done”, namely The Women’s Health Initiative which examines a number of health issues and generated a variety of reports on specific topics. This randomized trial involved almost 50,000 women and one of the subjects evaluated was the low fat, low calorie approach with a 10% increase in exercise to generate weight loss. The trial extended over a 7 year period. The protocol predicted a 32 pound per year weight loss. Although there was very good compliance with the protocol which predicted the results at the end of the seven year period were described as crushing. The protocol lead to not a single pound of weight loss. Not. One. Pound. This completely obliterates the calories in vs. calories out that we all thought was correct that has been advocated for the last 50 plus years. But don’t take my word for it, read it for yourself: Howard BV, et al. Low-fat dietary and weight change over 7 years: the Women’s Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial. JAMA. 2006 Jan 4; 295(1): 39-49. So that’s some of the science on this topic, as opposed to just being my opinion. With respect to your comment that it defies physics, you’re right, it does. That’s because it’s not physics. The cause of weight gain is hormonal imbalance. As for a calorie is a calorie is a calorie, want to bet? A calorie is a measure taken from physics: the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1* Celsius. There is no direct connection to hormones and the complex processes of digestion. As you can see, the calorie definition makes no mention of food. The use of references to calories has become a convenient and unfortunately misleading assumptions. As I said, the body does not have “calorie receptors”. The calories in vs calories out (CICO) model is also called the kitchen sink model. However the analogy is false since storage of the products from eating is not a one compartment analogy, like a sink. It’s not like taking food in and out of a fridge. The surplus we eat gets stored as fat in a freezer in the basement for consumption once the fridge is empty. Fat storage and consumption works through a different process than that involved with the use of blood sugar. You can’t get to the fat in the freezer until you use what is in the fridge first. This is a hormonal, not a physics issue. Please provide the research that describes, “the laws of physics in the human body” and how they relate to the bodies complex hormone processes. I look forward to some interesting reading on this subject. Cheers

In the same vein, not all calories created equal. That 1600 calories derived from highly processed foods like those mentioned will actually cause you to gain more weight than 1600 calories from a kale salad. So while weight loss is dependent on calories out being greater than calories in, it will take more calories burned than the 1600 calories in from the Oreos to loose the Oreos weight. I was surprised by this when I read about the study, since I had always thought a calorie in would require a calorie out for equilibrium. The body does not have “calorie receptors”. It reacts to the type and quality of the food. This sucks, because I really love Oreos.