Beakbryce

So less than 10% chance of rain this morning predicted for this afternoon. As anyone who lives in Az knows, 80% chance means rain in the next month, maybe. Anyway, it was 85 degrees so went and played. After more than a month above 110 it was almost cold. Sprinkled the whole time. Lovely. Part of me was melting. The hurricane that devastated SoCal hasn't done much here. Quick driver review. Started stock 9.5 degree which did not go far with a low exceptionally straight ball flight. Then went to plus 1 and then upright plus 1 in an effort to get the ball higher and longer. Ball went higher but was less straight although straight enough. Distance was still not in line with the driver competition, my Callaway Epic. After reading other numbers now starting to filter in, decided to go back to stock settings. Well, made headway. Eight of the 14 drives were hit well. Hit 12 of 14 fairways. Seemed like I was always into the wind hitting 210, 210, 214, 217 with only one downwind at 230. The 8 drives averaged 218. Still 6 to 10 yards short of the Epic but these reported hits were very straight. I also found out this club loves the Pro V1X. 10 yards longer with that ball over a regular Pro V1. Need to get a Vice Pro + out there soon. I was happier with the ball flight as well as it was a little higher if I remembered to tee the 4 more yard tee a little higher. Again, higher maybe due to the Pro V1X? Not going to talk about the 3 wood. It's still in no mans land seeking aid and shelter. Now for the bright spot. The 4 hybrid. I need this club to feed my 170-180 yard gap. Hit it 3 times full on, 180, 180, 183, and choked up once to hit it 170. High flight and soft landing. The ball flight is so much better than my Great Big Bertha 2019 (BB19). I already am leaving the Mizuno in the bag all the time. The club is an absolute revelation. My 6 and 7 hybrid, also BB19's, are a little bummed about their 4 hybrid cousin. The Mizuno is just so good looking, the 6 and 7 are reportedly somewhat enchanted. Fickle boys! BTW, I played the 5809 set of tees with a course rating of 107, so fairly easy course. Shot 1 over. Didn't miss to many greens. In fact, I chipped more often because we have 3 drivable par 4 holes, 2 of which I hit driver and 1 I hit the 4 hybrid. Despite that, only made 1 birdie. If only my putting was as good as the rest of my game. In my defense, all of our greens are recovering from being plugged with large tines so it's a bit of a roller coaster. I believe if one picks the right set of tees, one only needs to be long enough. If I get within 200 yards of the green, I have a good chance to hit it. Approach is the best part of my game. Today however, the longest club I needed other than par 3s was a 7 hybrid. Tomorrow playing with my "nemesis", actually a good buddy. I like to play better against him, I hope those reading this understand that mainly means longer, so back to the Epics.

Okay, now you are just making me feel good. I was good for 240 back then. I really think you may be wanting to adjust that 6 a side request! Now when you hear us old guys saying the new technology has largely allowed us to stay close to the same yardage you know why. We couldn't hit those clubs anywhere. Golf was fun though. Those heavy steel shafts and wooden clubheads, those were real manly clubs. Could have substituted for bayonet practice.

Okay then. Now I really feel ancient! Even in my glory days playing in the All Marine, I never hit it that far. I mean, they were wooden clubs and all but still, I swung hard. If I were to play any of you guys, could I get 6 a side and play from the forward tees?

I can't wait to see your numbers. We are on opposite ends of the ball speed continuum for this test. I can't wait to see if their tech results in longer drives against your Paradym.

Now that more numbers are starting to come in, I went back to look at my Trackman numbers. Driver swing speed was exactly the same at 130 average with the Mizuno average distance 2 yards longer. There really isn't any reason why real world the Mizuno is 8-10 yards shorter, measured, and knowing where I normally drive on the holes I am playing. I wonder now if all the fooling around with the adaptability settings trying to hit it higher was a disservice to the club. Going back to stock for Tuesday's round. Used the Epics today because my buddy was back from a trip. I can't handle it when I am not outdriving him. Last drive today was smoked, at least for me, 237 uphill. Waaaaaay by the opposition! The Mizuno needs the same Tuesday as he crows a bit when he is on. Since we were both fighter pilots... I can't handle the truth when I am shorter. I could watch this speech everyday. There was a par 3 where I hit 8 iron and he hit 5 iron with both of us just short of the hole but I was closer! I am much more subdued in my celebration. I just asked him if my ball was in the way. Subtle is my middle name. My new Rogue St irons more than a match for his old steelheads. Which BTW, he bought after trying mine, so maybe a new arms race in the making.

Fun read so far. These clubs look interesting although the unboxing was a bit weird with all the crushed boxes. Looking forward to lots of numbers as the lofts look at least 2018 ish lofts. They don't seem to have the latest round of jacking up!

In celebration of other testers starting to test, I decided to go out this afternoon. Weather was 103, wind at 7, humidity 19%. It's a dry heat, very pleasant. Fairways were dry. I put the driver and 3 wood at upright plus 1. Driver should equal 10.5 degrees with a draw bias. I was able to hit a slight draw and still hit a cut when needed. Ball went where I aimed pretty much so still relatively straight with a little draw or cut. The good news, everybody was better. The clubhead just looked better at this setting. Driver average was 219. 3 wood average was 204 which is about 10 yards better. 4 hybrid was 171. Bright spots, 1 drive at 230, one 3 wood at 212, and 1 glorious 4 hybrid at 183. All high, all straight, all sublime. Still couldn't feel where on the clubhead I was hitting the ball other than a 4 hybrid I hit on the toe with resulted in a toe hook that went 172. If I could hit the 3 wood and 4 hybrid every time with those numbers that would be just excellent for this test. The 3 wood would still not be to the average of the Epic but the 4 hybrid flight and 180 yards would be really nice compared to the BB19 as it was twice as high and landed softer. The smaller head on this hybrid is a great club to practice with. The swing needs to be spot on as it does let you know when the sweet spot isn't hit. Really can't wait until everyone is reporting numbers. May play tomorrow afternoon as well as there is some sort of hurricane destined for SoCal that may spread rain in our direction for my Sunday tee time. Not much of a chance really but any excuse to get an extra round in. Will play the Epics.

That's about how I feel about it. It could be more exciting.

russtopherb: That was a cool idea to photo the heads as it shows them to perfection. I like it! Going in my bag of tricks for sure.

Love those hits. Nice way to start!

So thankful you have your clubs now. Really going to work towards the settings that work for the rest of you just to make sure I am giving them their all. Next time I play with them will be Sunday. Had my Epics out today and had a solid outing. Haven't put them in excel yet but had a 251 yarder which for me is as solid as it gets. That was on a par 5 that has the cart path coming across the fairway with barranca just beyond. I was 3 inches from the cart path so glad it stopped. Also my shots today were generally higher so not sure what that was about. Conditions were also a bit drier. Under 110 today so not as much water put on the course this morning. I feel pretty happy with my Epic driver average of 220-225 because Arcos reports 5-10 handicap 70+ years old average at 204. I am going to try the upright plus one setting on the Mizuno driver and 3 wood. Leaving the 4 hybrid as is until I feel it is hit in and then make changes as needed. I am hoping the driver and 3 wood are as long or longer for you than your current club which may mean the Cortech Chamber is better with faster club speeds which would be useful to know.

Total sense. Especially when there is no authoritative rule for shaft flex by all the companies.

I agree. Should be some sort of way to indicate that you don't have one for a $600 club. Callaway pre-owned sells them for $9.99 so it isn't much of an expense to send one with a club. I wonder if the pro shops where I play have one? Would at least be an alternative but one would be stuck on that setting for the round. I keep one in the bag for mid round corrections or just if I feel like it. Yes, I know that's not allowed! On the golf balance scale, challenge or fun? I have an extra ounce on fun.

I received a wrench with each club. BTW, the wrenches I think are universal if you have one from another club. I have a number of Callaway, Ping, and now Mizuno wrenches and I just use the one within reach when I get a feeling a change is needed.

Say it ain't so, Joe!

I remember when my numbers resembled these... oh, so so long ago! Just looking at it, it looks like you have a natural draw. Maybe ball position? With a natural draw, if the normal position is moved up slightly, pull draw to hook, ball back slightly, block or push. With those numbers, I can't wait for you to hit the Mizuno to see what's what. I really don't want to be the lone voice in the wilderness. Killed my Epics yesterday and today. Well, for me anyway.

There is debate about this but many sites indicate that either choking down or cutting down results in a slightly stiffer shaft. I don't know how we could test that. Would take some equipment.

Nothing wrong with those stats if you can hit the par 4s in regulation. Sure, you want to try to hit more fairways by hitting in the center of the club face. That's a good goal. Maybe an instructor can give you a setup or swing path that can help that out so your clubhead speed becomes even more of an asset. It will be interesting to see if the Mizuno matches your Cobra. Are you trying to hit it straight? If you develop a shot one way or the other, draw or fade, you can actually end up with more fairway to play with. You are correct that it would be hard for a driver to autocorrect your swing as you have a 2 way miss. When it is down to one way, you can do a lot of things with an adjustable driver. BTW, what are you using to chart your drives? I guess I don't understand it as some on the 0 degree line indicate rough. Are you hitting through the fairway on a dogleg?

Ok. That perked me up. I put them side by side and they are the same length. Not sure what the spec sheet has going on. The BB 19 has the Mamiya Recoil Shaft and it's a doozy. I really wish we could have gone outside the standard shaft offerings with the Mizuno's because I believe that shaft, at least for me, is a rocket. Don't get me wrong, I get why standard shafts are a requirement. The recoil shaft is in my 6 and 7 hybrid as well. If my new 8,9,PW Rogue ST Max irons don't perform, that shaft is going in. BTW, the irons have been just fine. Great irons. I don't have an answer for the distance discrepancy, but it has only been hit only 3 times. Maybe getting it hit in will help. I will swing it every day on my mat to help it along, although I am not playing it until everyone else has clubs.

I am pro-roll back for everyone, also. I would have no problem moving up a tee box and playing from 6,000 or 5,800 yds with a shorter ball. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is right but just wanted to make my stance known. I looked at forgiveness. Out and out distance generally signalled to me ultra low spin which leads to disaster for me. All in all, I think this is good news @Beakbryce ! We seem like we might be on different sides of this argument and that is GREAT NEWS for any discussion forum, in my opinion. So cool. Maybe take these in order. I still have my Original Big Bertha. Hang on, I am going to measure the shaft. 42.5 inches and 11 degree loft. I enjoy hitting this club as well. Clearly doesn't go as far as todays Callaway. However, what a great way to force yourself to hit the ball in the center of the face. Part of my position on hit it hard and go find it is based on strokes gained, but actually, more to the fact that I have accomplished all my golf goals. Todays score doesn't matter a twit to me, which allows me to go for everything. In your case, my guess is you have a lot to accomplish in the future and you are finding the best way for you to do it. That's the magic of golf in that you establish your own path to success and there are all kinds of ways to do it. I understand people that are pro rollback, especially guys who can hit their utility iron 220-230! Just saying. But the guys I play with max driver out at 220 or so. Some don't hit it 180. You indicated you would move up to tees to 6000 or 5800 but we are already there. What tees are we going to play if they roll the ball back? My wife plays league play from the forward tee, but when we play at the base she plays from the start of the fairway so golf remains fun. However, there isn't a lot of strategy because the hazards aren't placed to catch her drives. Whichever way golf goes, all courses are going to have to re-evaluate fairway bunkers and the like because they won't be optimal. I am not adamant about opposing a rollback, but I am not in favor. They will have to take those Pro V's out of my cold dead hand not in favor. Like everything else in golf, I also don't think there is a right answer for everyone. It is interesting you mention forgiveness instead of accuracy. The MGS driver testing includes categories for Distance, Accuracy, and Forgiveness. There is a distinction between accuracy and forgiveness. I guess you want all three, but the hunt for the best club for someone is going to prioritize one and maybe 2 of those. If there is ever a club #1 in all three, it would probably cost big bucks. Your point about ultra low spin is exactly what I was trying to suggest Mizuno has chased down the rabbit hole and it hurts the club we are testing. We are not in disagreement on that. There is a very limited group of golfers that can fully utilize ultra low spin. I can't wait for your comments on the clubs.

I would just put the following points out for discussion regarding length of shaft. I mean, in the end it is just physics, a bigger arc produces more clubhead speed and a longer ball. Where the physics falls apart is the human side of the equation and that is what we are talking about. 1. The thinking that a shorter shaft helps a golfer hit it more in the center has been around since wooden club heads. It was there when I started golfing in the early 80’s. With a wooden club head, or even say the first Big Bertha, the clubhead width across the equator wasn’t very long so a quarter inch off center was a big deal. The sweet spot was small and localized to the center. That isn’t the case today. Sweet spots are huge on the better drivers. Perimeter weighting has cured a lot of bad swings. Additionally, the weight of the wooden clubhead seriously made it hard to add length to the club without the swing weight getting totally out of hand. That’s why the driver shafts were shorter back in the day. I don’t know if you have actually tried a wooden club with a 46” steel shaft but it is seriously heavy. Axe heavy. 2. Any discussion of hitting the ball in the center of the clubface has to involve a swing so out of control it misses both on the heel and toe side, because if it is only on one side, you could just address the ball so as to fix the miss. This should be self evident. 3. If 1” is better, is 2” even better than that? How about 3”? Where does it stop? That is what testing and fitting is supposed to accomplish. Has anyone been to a test where the fitter actually stopped trying to fit someone in to a 45.75-46” shaft and went to shorter ones, or did they suggest a different club, or that lessons might be more appropriate use of the clients’ money? I’m sure it has happened, but how often is what I am asking? What is the ratio? What do they say to their golf buddies, "ya man, I got this new club and it is way accurate. I will be in the fairway hitting a 7 iron to the green while you guys are all over the planet hitting a wedge in to the green and I am going to kick your..." wait, what? Seriously? 4. Do we really think with today’s clubs that a 90 MPH swing that misses so often on both sides of the sweet spot will be helped by a shorter shaft that reduces the swing speed by a 1-5 MPH, or whatever the actual number turns out to be? A couple of MPH doesn’t mean you can manipulate the club in the middle of the downswing to make perfect contact when the club is going that fast. 5. If you feel you need to be 1” closer to the ball for perfect contact, you could just stand a little taller or you can just choke up. Why take the length option out of play when you don't need to? There are a lot of holes where crooked is less important than max length. 6. It’s the rare individual today that would willingly buy a driver that’s shorter but straighter. Human nature after all. I mean, maybe if you hit it 330 and you are going down to 320. Jack Nicklaus, in reference to new golfers, said to learn to hit it long first. I would just ask you if you see golfers moving up a tee so that their accurate driver leaves them with the same club everyone back a tee is hitting in to the green, or maybe they play the same tee and take the ribbing that comes from being the shortest driver. Maybe they score the best and I grant you that's always the best answer. Be honest though, a year from now are you going to remember the 73 you shot today, the $5 dollar bet you won, or the drive you blasted 25 yards further on a hole making it the best ever on that hole? 7. How many instructors do you know, have a shorter length driver for their students to learn with? I know there is a ton of golf “lore” out there, but that doesn’t mean it can always prevail over logic. It's not wrong to question whether the old saw that shorter is more accurate is actually true in a majority of cases today. I know golfers that do hit a shorter shaft longer with their particular club. Exceptions to the rule does not make the rule involving pure physics invalid. Today's golfing public is mostly concerned with the long drive and how they can get longer. Otherwise, Joe Golfer would be clamoring to join the USGA and play a reduced distance ball. While some would be helped by a shorter shaft, some will not. Maybe Arcos can weigh in if they have those stats. That’s the beauty of golf. There is a reason a lot of women golfers now use men’s length clubs rather than standard length “women’s” clubs. They are taller and are fit better with longer clubs. In this case shorter is not better. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see if shorter golfers, say those on the LPGA Tour, are being fit with shorter shafts. You would think shorter golfers would be the most affected by shaft length and the need for a shorter shaft. Brooke Henderson's play suffered while she adjusted from a 48" to a 46" shaft. Again, an exception which isn't definitive either way. Just in case though, anyone want to bet on the number of LPGA players with a shorter driver shaft? Would it approach even 5%? Again, I am only pointing characteristics of this club out as part of the test. If the clubhead wasn't the standard 460 CC, I would point that out. Then we could have a discussion on how some people hit mini drivers better than today's normal sized driver. Last question, when you look at MGS driver test for this year, did you look first for the most accurate driver, or did you look for the longest driver? Because you are not that guy that needs a shorter shaft. Am I right?

That is why in the original post I said "could be the reason", not "is the reason" for the loss I am seeing in distance. My post didn't state that all golfers would lose distance with a shorter shaft. I agree with both you and Vandyland. I value the comments you both have made about the length of shaft. I could have noted your discussion points in my original post about length but I didn't feel it necessary as I have heard all of those points before and I believe them to be well known in the community. It is a fact that the USGA and R&A recently limited shaft length to 46" in the belief that longer shafts resulted in longer drives for those golfers that trained to a longer shaft. Clearly, there are thousands of shaft and clubhead variations out there with no one setting being perfect for everyone. That is why golf has so many different manufacturers making so many different clubs resulting in so many choices. This test isn’t about all those other choices. This test is relevant only to what I am finding out regarding a specific driver. I am reporting what I see concerning the Mizuno driver that I am testing with information relevant to my test as noted in my post. I can’t be the only person reading these posts finding it relevant that the Mizuno has a standard shorter shaft than the competition. In my case, it is not a guess that this driver is shorter than my Epic in both shaft length and in real life distance. I don’t need to put both clubs on a launch monitor as I am playing on courses I have played for 20 years and in real life, the Mizuno driver is shorter. Since I hit the ball in the center of the face most of the time, I am looking around for reasons why this Mizuno driver is shorter than my Epic. In my case, the shorter shaft is relevant and not a guess. Please note that I have tested several of the adjustability factors in an effort to find better numbers. I am just looking around for as much information I can report so the test is complete as I can make it. Right now, those reports are concerned with what I am seeing. This is still the middle of the test. There will be a conclusion report where I can review my findings and how they may be relevant to everybody. Clearly, length of shaft will be in the conclusion as a fact. People reading the test and all the comments including yours can decide if the shorter shaft is relevant to them. Which is why I am suspending testing until everybody has the clubs with some significant testing and play time to see what everyone else is observing numbers wise. If the Mizuno driver is longer than the other testers current gear, I couldn't be happier with the result. Whether the clubs are or aren’t longer, I look forward to the discussion as to why. The discussion will be more relevant with other test information. I also look forward to your future contributions regarding the test and your valuable knowledge which clearly aids the discussion.

Totally agree. That has always been the position of a lot of instructors as well. My take would be that you can always choke up. There is no option when you start at 45". The one day I kept strict track of where I hit the clubface and how far, 2 absolutely center hits were matched distance wise by a 1/4 inch off center hit. Maybe MGS needs to do a study on different length drivers and how much is lost from an inch shorter driver hit in the center and a longer driver hit off center. How off center does the hit have to be before it loses to the inch shorter driver? That may also help explain why I was off center when looking at this driver behind the ball.

08/06/23 Let's start with that question. The club sets up very straight and was a delight to hit. I realize it looks like a closed face in the picture, but it doesn't set up that way. Recall I need this club to go 180 to match my current 4 hybrid. I hit the Mizuno 3 times from 180 yards today. The feeling on the hit was much better than the woods, sound was still muted, ball flight was low with a nice little draw, and all three times the ball went... 165 yards. My 6 hybrid goes 165 yards. Only time I hit my 6 hybrid today it was 160 yards uphill into an 8 mph wind on 18. It went 160 yards. I was beginning to think it was me. I could add loft to the Mizuno 4 hybrid to get the ball flight up but that would just encourage more draw. Course conditions were drier in the landing area with a bit more wind than we usually see in the morning. Driver average was 212. Missed one fairway. 3 wood average was 192 and the balls were fairly straight. I hit one 3 wood off the tee on a downhill hole that went 205. I did hold the Mizuno and Epic drivers together and the Mizuno shaft is definitely 3/4 inch shorter than the standard Epic shaft. See the length specifications below. The following is from the customization discussion about length of the shaft on the same page. "Woods can be built +/- 1″ from standard length but the swingweight will increase by 3 points for every +1/2″ and reduce by 3 points for every -1/2″. I guess they couldn't get the head right with a longer shaft. Those 3-6 swingweight changes must have resulted in a head heavy feeling club with some directional or ball flight problems. One of my buddies asked me today if the Mizuno driver had anything inside because it sounded hollow to him! Sorry guys, these clubs are going to be sequestered until all of you have your clubs, have some range time, and some game time on them. This will give me a chance to hit the Epics and make sure I haven't just lost my game totally. I'm a bit discouraged with the results so far. I just hope my Epics and BB 19 aren't mad at me. My apologies to them will be profuse and heartfelt. I will be open to any suggestions for the Mizunos after you all have hit your clubs. There appears to be an option to send clubs on to another tester, and I am contemplating that scenario if I kill my Epics this week.

I was popping around trying to find out more information on the Mizuno website. I noticed the driver length shaft is 45 inches. I looked at several websites that indicated that for each half inch shorter in shaft length, 1.5 to 2 miles of clubhead speed is lost. Each MPH is about 3 yards. Since every manufacturer I know is at 45 3/4 or the legal 46 that equates to about 6 - 12 yards. That could be why the Mizuno driver is losing yards to my Callaway's shaft length at 45.75 inches. That alone may explain the real world difference I am seeing. For me, that seems like something you wouldn't want to give up in today's market. I wonder what length shaft is in Luke Donald's driver? Can't wait to see how everyone else's numbers compare.