Badams69

Fair enough. And honestly I don't see par going anywhere and personally don't have an issue with it. However - golf was around for quite some time before PAR was established in 1911. Does it serve some purposes? Sure. But - I'm simply saying that the excitement or nerves are not always positive. They do make it neater when you do well, but outside of those instances ...... how many times does it detract from the process of simply scoring your best free from outside expectations, conscious or not, it is there ..... PAR. LOL I just get a kick out of thinking through these types of things especially in a sport I love. Talking through things like this with other golfers, especially those who come to me for help has always been fruitful. I found removing any obstacle apparent or otherwise to good play, was one additional element to playing their best, the quickest. Ex: We'd list the holes characteristics with our teams and not show them the card. Then have them work out what could derail them on a hole and what could ensure a smooth hole free of trouble. The newbies would go as far to learn that they scored better hitting 7 and 9 irons as often as they possibly could. Prior to that they were always told, it's a par 4 you try to get there in two. Their scores would come down so fast. The better players we would figure out their favorite two yardages and do whatever was needed to play to that yardage as many times as possible during a round. Especially if their short game was relatively suspect. Either way ...... with no awareness of par, they simply would mathematically plan their way around the course pre-round. And then when they played they had a plan to fall back on and learned to ignore par altogether. They didn't discuss it, they didn't ask about it. They just played. Obviously it helped the pure beginners far more but it had an impact on the better players also. Freed them up to just play, they didn't think birdie eagle or double they just played. We sent three medalists to state that year. Not a traditionally deep school for high end golfers, but we had 3 and they beat kids that played much higher levels than they did outside school golf. Just an example of how I've seen this thinking help golfers.

Yes that is what @richk9holes was referring to also. That matches up directly with what the usga set forth. Bogey is the score an amateur/average golfer should make on said hole. Given all that, can we agree it is odd we have to work around it, this concept of PAR per hole. Maybe it is an impediment in some fashion if that is having to be done?

Yes that is not an uncommon approach to managing expectations to help improve ones approach. I don't think you said it wrong at all. This is a part that that I find fascinating as I go through this mental exercise here ...... if PAR was anything real, two holes so different in nature could not truly be labeled the same par. Decimals would need to be incorporated. LOL It is all about total score and these pars cloud is a bit at times.

I don't disagree it has a place ..... and yes that is how it is used to an extent, which I also find odd, but in my opinion as an overall number would serve the game better. One thing I found to be a problem when I was coaching teams ......and of course I've heard this beyond that time ...... ex: a player (top tier player) makes a bogey or worse..... it is not uncommon to hear "gotta get that one back". Obviously the stroke they lost to par. However, that is a complete fallacy. You absolutely CANNOT get a stroke back. You may can grind down and focus and play more determined and better golf going forward ........ but that prior stroke ain't going away no matter how well you play after. It is a tough topic because of how ingrained the concept is in this game. Perception based around it skews the objective at time. Fair?

Given how golf is - that is a highly effective method. But it also is a precisely concrete example of the concept of the whole initial premise. None of that should be necessary at all. All those holes are the same regardless of what we label them. For instance ...... why do you have to adjust it? Why did the coach suggest it? What the heck is wrong with this sport? LOL It is related to how we perceive a hole due to the listed par. Again an arbitrary number that has zero to do with our own total score. It brings in an element that shouldn't exist. Make more sense now???? Thanks

Absolutely that mode leads to lower scores. Which some don't grasp. You don't improve your score trying to turn 4's into 3's. You attack the 6's and 7's and shave from there first. But in fairness my point simply centers around par even existing is silly ..... only because of how it permeates our perceptions of scores. It chips away at the total score wins goal. One hole at a time.

That's how you do it! Just play. But how is your birdie putt performance vs par putts?

Fantastic approach. I'd ask you this ...... does the par on said hole actually ever matter? I'm guessing the hole types you mention, your strategy wouldn't change. With that said, you didn't get to mid single digits without some effort, and much trial and error. So, let me ask you this..... When you access a hole in two, does it matter to you that one is called a par 4 and the other a par 5? Let's presume same hole different courses ........ and somehow they ended up different par assignments. Does a four seem better on one during that round than the other??? We both know it matters. Matters to you, me and every golfer ever to walk the planet in varying amounts. THAT is the issue. THAT shouldn't be. WHY NOT? Because in a game that simply counts total strokes to have any strokes along the way seem more or less valuable is silly. Whether or not one deals with that better than others we all deal with it. But - why? Why does it even exist to begin with? It isn't there for that reason but that is the effect is has across the globe. Might make .5 strokes difference one day and 10 strokes another, but it is there ........ whether we see it or not, and honestly I've rarely heard anyone discussing this aspect of the game. PAR as an infiltrator and impediment to our best golf. With all that said, your approach is as good as one can hope to do given how it is. I do tip my cap to you on that for certain!!!

I respectfully find this a good attempt at arguing a different point. The inventors of golf had nothing to do with PAR. Par was established in 1911, here is a snippet: The word "par," officially entered the golf lexicon in 1911 when the USGA put it in play. But the word itself was around long before that. Generally, "par" was used when talking about stocks, as in, "a stock may be above or below its normal or par figure," according to the USGA. For golf purposes, the USGA defined "par" as, "the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green." Prior to the 1900s, "par" was actually a term used interchangeably with "bogey," but "bogey" was the term more universally used. Eventually, it was decided that "par" should be used to identify the "ideal score" on a given hole, while "bogey" would be the term used to describe a score that recreational golfers would be happy with. Here are the yardage variables that were used to determine a holes "par" in 1911: Par 3 - Up to 225 yards Par 4 - 225 to 425 yards Par 5 - 426 to 600 yards Par 6 - 601 yards or more Wouldn't touring pros love it if those specific yardages were used to identify a hole's par today? My point ---- why would someone write such a silly statement ..... what difference would it make what par is or isn't ..... strokes is the measuring stick! Has been from the start of this game! Those numbers changed in 1917: Par 3 - Up to 250 yards Par 4 - 251 to 445 yards Par 5 - 446 to 600 yards Par 6 - 601 yards or more And, finally, they were last updated in 1956, which is incredible when you consider the innovations in golf technology since then and especially in the last 20 years: Par 3 - Up to 250 yards Par 4 - 251 to 470 yards Par 5 - 471 yards or more But let's say you are correct - that doesn't change the unnecessary effects it has on golfers. That part is apparent across all levels of play, all coverage of the game, all post-round conversations, all keepsakes based on various achievements. However - I don't see an equivalent in any other sport. PAR is aside and apart from our individual performances. It would be as if any basketball team not scoring 100 pts in a game, or 25 in a quarter. Kinda arbitrary but something to shoot for. A football team having to score at least 10 points/half but at least 21 in a game or some other arbitrary imagined scoring barometer. TOTAL SCORE is all that matters!

Well if PAR was the goal, then I would agree with this point. However, this is a sport, as any other, around competition. That necessitates another party. And yes, as is in this sport PAR has served as that opponent in effect. However, it is really another golfer or field of competitors. At which point how the winning total relates to par is irrelevant. The handicap competitions are neat and serve a purpose, but that is derived for several reasons and that is fine. But the goal is to shoot the lowest total you or I can on any given round within the abilities we display that day, the way we execute, and the conditions outside our control. We don't have to agree, but I would find it hard to believe that you think it is not factual that par on any given hole politely implies ...... this is how you SHOULD score here. And that spirals into many of the effects we are all aware of. Not sure why the push back on this, it is real, it is not as if I'm saying Mizuno is better than Titleist or something. Par 4 says get home in two, and golfers of all stripes strive for that often for no good reason other than it is a Par 4 and that is expected or they lay up for no reason other than it is ok because 2 is the goal. It also assigns a different value to stroke 3, 4, 5 and so on whether taken on a Par 3 or a Par 5. And of course .... that computes because making a 3 on a 600 yard hole is normally different than a 3 on a 125 yard hole. However ...... the assignment within a golfers value system during a round to various strokes is inextricably linked to how each hole score relates to par. Super negatives cascade and follow golfers for holes around the course. When that should not happen. If PAR didn't exist maybe we'd simply play them as we saw fit for the game we possess and be much more cognizant of the singular value of each stroke. Not the exponential values that we apply today. Values are placed on putts that make no sense from a total strokes perspective but only compute if noticing their relevance to par on said hole. Golfers don't see all putts the same, they assign them an importance level depending on what they represent to par. That's insane!!! AND NOT A GOLFERS' FAULT. It is out of their control to some extent. PAR was and is there, always has been. A birdie and an eagle are one stroke apart but we treat them as much more. Far different! Yet they are NOT! No different than a triple to a quad. If you are thinking of par as a goal and a measuring stick, then I think that is a point in the favor of my argument. Maybe it is NOT a goal .... maybe it is a ceiling instead? It is a limiting factor that impacts our best golf for no reason whatsoever! It is total score only that matters irrespective of how that relates to par.

My point in a nutshell I guess. PAR is wholly irrelevant to this in every aspect!!!! Handicaps actually make this same argument. If par actually meant anything that is what would be the basis for calculating a handicap ..... but rather they use a more scientific approach bringing in slope and rating and the like. Which ....... if par was more arranged this way, then I would find it far more relevant and would be a different animal than the one today. ...... yes in the parameters of the game we know dealing with it is a challenge and such, which shouldn't be. It has nothing to do with winning an actual tournament. Stroke or match play. Not a handicap event, a real actual golf tournament. Tee it up, count your strokes and put em on the table!

I have that bag and have far less issue dealing with getting clubs in and out of it than I do with my C-130. If that helps. Do they get crossed at times, sure. But nothing that a slight wiggle doesn't take care of.

N I C E !!!! Whatever you could shoot with the latest & greatest ...... have no doubt you'd shoot better wit deze !!!!

ok thanks. Par is maybe a goal, but it shouldn't be. It could also be seen as a limiting concept as well. I stick by my argument and don't concur about the tee thing at all. Unless PAR is the goal. I'm saying it only is accepted because it is there and always has been, with all due respect all I hear when you explain your point of view, is how ingrained it is in a golfer's mentality. You'll be happy to know - as a guy who also coached basketball for years and years - I have this same exact discussion about goal height and court size and why on earth kids and NBA would be asked to play on the same court with same goal height. (they aren't identical but close enough) NBA would get better with higher rims and wider courts. What I will absolutely agree with you on ....... as it stands par is a measuring stick and it is our job as golfers to try and get as near it up or down of it, as we can. But I think, as stated, it is a negative to cause worse scores and that works on the better end also, it can serve like a depth in the ocean that is hard to push below (lower scores) and cause some to seek less pressure depths at all costs. But I'm sorry to say - it is absolutely an arbitrary number. If it were not, it would have decimal points abound. Some holes are more of a par 4.5 than a 4 or a 5 and others even a par 5.8 etc ....... We may not agree and that's fine - thanks for the 2 cents! And the suggestions on clubs to check out the other day - I've been really digging into the old nike hybrids just in case.

Still sure I could go low at any time. PROBLEM I keep getting a different tee time than that !!!!

It may be due to when I started playing but ...... that bag is THE GOLD STANDARD for carry bags! We had those in the 80s and man oh man we thought they were the best. Still are and the older ones still run strong due to quality (except that rats nest in the dividers gets pretty nasty).

Now you are touching on my absolute biggest pet peeve in all of golf. Never _____ never in. Last I checked. . . . never in is simply NEVER IN regardless where else it ended up!

You can say that again!. Last thing I need these days. Maybe that's why I'm even thinking of this. LOL Worse I get the more obstacles I'd like dealt with

Agree 100% from the standpoint you are talking about. I'm saying it dictates our perception of too many variables in a game that is about total score. Let's take the tee example..... IF PAR was not a thing ...... why would someone need to play from different tees? I think it is a valid question that honestly until that typing I hadn't even pondered at all. IF PAR DID NOT EXIST ON A HOLE ....... what would it matter which tees you, I or anyone played from? I'm not arguing for anything, for me this is just something I enjoy, a mental exercise of what is and why it is, and what if it weren't at all? LOL

Thanks again Cnosil. We both know PAR is here to stay and does serve a purpose. At the same time that doesn't preclude it from fouling up how we approach certain situations. I wouldn't go as far as to say it impedes any good golf. Just that there is an aspect of it that screws with our heads. It isn't alone as we all know golf is wild game to process mentally and emotionally. I would say if it didn't exist we'd figure something out to compete. Kids do it in the driveway playing 2 on 1 etc. LOL. Thanks again!

I appreciate the question. To an extent that is what I am fairly certain would result. What I am more confident in is that PAR influences how we perceive everything in this game and it permeates that approach in ways we are aware of and even ways we couldn't fathom. Think I've listed a few examples. But just think of how we discuss putts or shots .... as if they have different values because of how they relate to par, or how they impact our score relative to par. Meaning we all intellectually know each is just a stroke but we place gradations of value on various strokes because of what the result is or isn't relative to par. One silly cliche.... NEVER LEAVE A _____ PUTT SHORT. Not that everyone says it but it's common to hear about a birdie putt for instance. WHY? It is one stroke whether for birdie eaglenl or a snowman.

OK. If that is what you're getting from this that's fine. It is not what I'm saying and I'm not upset or trying to convince anyone to do anything. The point you're making seems to validate my point of how pervasive the concept is over how the game is approached. That's all. You don't see it as detrimental to how people approach the game and that's well within you're rights to do so. I'm fine with par personally and accept it. What I don't like as someone who teaches golf, consumes golf and enjoys golf ... is the existence of this element in our sport that hurts people in their pursuit of playing it their best. Why does anyone need it? It's does NOT help anything.

Well, that is a great question, but what I am actually trying to point out here is that ...... this point is more about the effects of PAR. PAR as in its' interwoven nature in the game. It is as if it is a presence more powerful than any other. One that serves little purpose, one that mostly is absent in any other sport. A prescribed expectation, regardless how it arrived or the trued definition of it, it is generally accept as ..... what should happen on such hole. I'm saying it is so much looming over this sport and blindly accepted as part of the sport. No questions asked. But WHY???? Why does it matter? And what would happen to psyche of any golfer good or bad, if it vanished. With all due respect, so far, every counter point or summarization I've read, just accepts that it IS and don't ask questions. Well, I'm saying it exists, likely always will, and unknowingly has a negative impact on how we ALL OF US perceive the game in every aspect. How we approach it, digest it, judge it, etc ....... That's all

I'm impressed every time I read it! YOU WON!!! It's like going to Vegas and they just hand you loaded dice or something! I don't think you could have gotten that if you would have tried to resell them instead. Haven't checked, but highly doubt it would have been within $100 of that

Yeah that driver was a good one, something about several of those Callaways around that time that performed so well from all sorts of lies. Like the predecessor to hybrids yet different all the while! Thanks for the input.