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And Cnosil as well. I wish I could just get as many clubs as I wanted and test them out!

BTW--the clubs have all changed from my description above. And thanks Rickybobby--I appreciate the info!

I'm 66, 6'1" 250, and fairly strong, I lift weights regularly. I can post weights if you guys think it would be relevant. So--like a lot of us (everyone?) always searching for speed. My swing "structure" is sound enough my swing coach told me time to do speed training. Like a lot of seniors I've gone to progressively lighter more flexible shafts, woods and irons. I'm in a 5.5 58-60 gram shaft. So I go to do baseline with one of the radar monitors--it's a common one that works well. 5 swings with my driver, reasonably spaced out. 87 high (don't judge) 84 low. I'm depressed. For fun, I pull out my old Callaway 460, which has a 77 gram Proforce extremely stiff shaft in it (I'm told it cpms at extra stiff) and take a swing. 94. I figure that can't be right, misread, I go again--95. The next three--the lowest was 92--the others 94 and 95 again. Can some folks actually swing faster with heavier, stiffer shafts? Or was this just a moment where I was suffering bizarre delusions. My coach and I are going to check this when we get together--but a 7 mile an hour jump, and more consistent speed seems worth chasing--unless, as I said I am delusional.

Thanks for the help! Of course, you are right--it is on me to practice and learn--and true, that's digging it out of the dirt in way, but at least with guidance. And to the second poster--seeing myself has been eye opening, being able to access those videos anytime and review, is a game changer. I knwo you can video yourself, but...

I'm seeking a little advice from the group here. To do that--sadly, I have to talk about myself a bit. But, not to bury the lead, the central question is--are the Golftec lessons, taken in a progression with the tools and feedback they are going to offer a better investment than visiting a pro (even on a series of lessons) without that constant accurate feedback. So--about me. I didn't start playing until my (very) late thirties and early 40s--got down to an 8. Stopped playing to go back to playing rugby. Because I apparently have a few screws loose. I also coach rugby, and study learning theory and coaching. There is more crossover than you would think. I started back at golf again about 2 years ago. Originally I was self taught from books, took a few lessons from some great pros-all very useful, particularly a playing lesson. I'm sitting at 12 now. I have had a few recent lessons from pros--again all good--but although they use video--they tend to give me a cue, and tell me to go work on it--which I do. And come back in a couple of weeks. At that point--I have usually "overdone" the cue. Example--I was to in to out--given advice to swing left (which in the sweet moment it was working, got me open, great ball flight--and then I became--to out in. And to be honest--the explanation of why I needed to do something wasn't great. I did a Golftec swing evaluation on a reference from another forum member--cost me only 25 bucks, so I figured, "why not". The guy doing it was young--not nearly the same experience as the pros I had seen. BUT the evaluation tools, and the video--were great. And his explanations of stuff combined with the video made a lot of sense. and I was able to make a basic change pretty quickly. Because I could see it and understand why. I have a good intellectual grasp of the golf swing--but seeing yourself is hard. My thought is the tools Golftec offers will enable faster progression with fewer missteps and a clearer path--particularly with getting to practice with their tools and video (which I find extremely difficult to do with any kind of accuracy myself). I'm too busy to "dig it out of the dirt" by trial and error. I think anyone out of their teens is. I think the technology and guidance--as much from the technology as the young pro--will be really useful to my progression--more so than any thing else (except devoting myself to golf full time--which won't work). I practice on a range 2-3 times a week, play 2-3 times a week, but more 9 holes than 18. I welcome any thoughts!

Great stuff here, and thanks for the referral--I think we each made 100$. I have been looking at more technical lessons for a while. I have some very good local pros I have worked with but they are mostly old school guys. I have occasional rounds/moments of brilliant striking punctuated with very average to bad ones. I think the answer may lie in a level of detail that isn't a simple movement instruction. E.G. swing left to fight your hook. We will see.

Don't know much about photography, don't know much my science book--or the French I took. But--I know what I like. New Level has some great clubs. I demoed the 902 PD 2022, and the 902 OS. Performance was good with both--they aren't hollow bodies, so maybe not the rocket ships some of those are--but, solid distance, controllable, you can hit high/low/left/right. To me--great feel--they rival Mizunos. And I know. I practice with MP 69s. Visually--amazing. The OS--their game improvement--is almost exactly the same heel toe as my MP 69s--just a small bit larger, and the top line is only fractionally thicker. They are only slightly larger heel toe than ZX 7s, and the top line is...significantly thinner. At address--these things look like blades. And are beautiful otherwise. Combine those facts with custom shafts and specs, and most clubs ship within a week of order. Price--unreal. I ordered 5-PW 902 OS with Aerotech Steelfiber 95 shafts, my length , my lie, my loft, no grips (I want to put my own on)--803.00 delivered. Like I said-- not rocket ships, but solid distance. For reference--I'm 65, working on building my swing speed back up. With my 78 mph 7 iron swing speed, with a high ball flight--getting 151 carry, and I am sure there is more in the tank. My son-in-law--28, just started golf last year--hit the same iron on the range with me--185 carry first swing. These will do whatever you can do. And I vow I will catch the bastard. Soon enough.

And--I know or know of a ton of power lifters at high levels who certainly did curls etc. And also wanted to look good naked. Of course, their vision of looking good naked might vary from yours, mine or the rest of the population!

Holy Crap Chip Strokes--that is really serious lifting! Those numbers are stellar at 195--and Olympic lifting too? As my Grandmother used to say "well shut my mouth!" I never thought I would those numbers in a golf forum. I work with Marty Gallagher--so I am familiar with them and know what they mean-very impressive.

Chip Strokes--you have all the right ideas. You only need specialty programs once you have maxed your base as an athlete--generally that might look like 2x body weight for DL, 1.75 BW for squat, 1.25-1.5 BW for bench. When you can do that--maybe some special/sport specific exercises. But, if you get to those numbers--your speed will improve dramatically. If you have never been on a true structured progressive overload program, which you probably haven't been unless you played a D1 college sport --and depending on era maybe not then (I had never been on one), your gains can be fantastic (commonly referred to as Novice gains) in a relatively short period. Usually 6-9 weeks and you will have maxed your strength more than all but a very few sports might require--you will be more than "strong enough". Well, what's the catch? It's boring and brutal, though not particularly time consuming--and you have to focus on gaining strength and recovery--not a bunch of other things--like cardio, or body building (you will likely gain fat--cannot be helped to max muscle gain). Try Wendlers 5-3-1, Rippetoes Starting Strength and many more. The key for all of them is that you add small amounts of weight to the bar EVERY TIME you work out. Focus on the big lifts, Squat, Dead, Bench, overhead, pull-ups. The muscle you gain will also stay with you, and can easily be "re-upped" after a lay-off. Example--squat 3 times per week, add 10 pounds to the bar each time (start small) for 6 weeks. That is 18 workouts--180 pounds of gain (results vary, but if you can't add 10, add 5, and your horizon may may be 9 weeks, not 6. Only works for young studs? No. I did an experiment of one--me. I was coaching a high school sports team at the time, and heard about these great gains kids were getting at another school. So I did Rippetoes program. Age 55. Squat went from 225 (which I thought was something) to 330. Deadlift--250-430. Bench--205-250 (I have junky shoulders). I was significantly stronger. My horizon was 6 weeks--I really struggled to add anything more to the bar--could have, but the investment was not worth the incremental results after 6 weeks. 10 years later--I can work back to very close to the same numbers--in about 4 weeks. And I maintain a much higher level strength in general. I think focusing on this one thing for a short period--say now until Christmas--and you are going to be eating a lot anyway, which helps--is well worth the effort. If you have already maxed strength--or taken it to the more than reasonable for golf stage--add some power routines. Not power lifting--but strength speed--ball slams/throws, olympic lifts/jumps. And then body composition (Looking good naked!) and some cardio which has almost no correlation for golf but is good for you. If you run the programs suggested to max muscle gain, begin to strip the fat post January 1--join the crowd, and work power stuff and met con workouts with some hypertrophy sets--reps in the 6-12 range for the most weight can handle for that number of lifts. Irish Mike on "Fit for Golf" has fantastic programs and engagement for an extremely reasonable price. I frankly don't understand how he can provide all that he does for the price he charges. But if you haven't ever done it--running to grab those "Novice gains" done the right way with intention can be a huge game changer in a relatively short amount of time. As Mark Rippetoe says "Strong People are Harder to Kill, and More Useful in General". Have fun with it--break new horizons! But...don't be surprised by the results you don't get from the work you don't do.

They are certainly good looking clubs!!

You are right on with the faces-but often they show the faces, so you can get a good idea. I see you play the MP 52s--some nice sets on ebay!

I recently found the wonderful world of Ebay and used golf clubs. I mean, I always knew it was there, but not how useful, and inexpensive things could be (comparatively). And I also found Tom Wishons book--"The search for the perfect club". And I have been using MGS "Most wanted" and reviews for clubs for a while. But in terms of new stuff. So--Wishon says if you have a cavity back--it's a cavity back--that's about as much (depending on depth of cavity) forgiveness/help as you can get. His quote is something like--"if forgiveness is an 8 ounce glass, then any cavity back gives you 7.5 ounces, and the last half ounce is where "improvements" are made. And greater distance is mostly/materially down to stronger lofts. I was scouting new used clubs, and using MGS reviews among others to evaluate what I might want. And I noticed something. Going back to like 2012 or so, when reviewing club tests etc., I don't think there are material differences between clubs in terms of either distance (except as attributable to delofting) or dispersion ("forgiveness"). There are between types of clubs (blade v cavity back e.g.) but not between different "ages" of clubs--at least in the relatively modern area. I did not do an actual calculation--but looking at say 7 irons--carry is usually 155-to 165 (except for really strong lofts) and dispersion among the leaders remains pretty similar. Am I right? Or delusional? Because if I am right, there is no reason to buy new clubs (unless you just want to) AND every reason to simply pick what looks good to your eye and play that. For like the last 10 years at least. And none of the technology means anything really. Ohh, and decide whether you want stronger lofts or not--which can be a curse, because if you hit lower balls, a more lofted club might actually get you more carry, thus more usable distance, though less total distance. Thoughts???

One thing I am seeing in responses to this post and in other places is it seems folks thought I had a particular kind of iron I wanted to get, and a result I wanted to get. I really didn't. I just spent money on game improvers (T300) and would have been more than happy to stay with them. However, the results haven't been great, and really inconsistent. I saw Crossfield do this experiment, and thought I would try it out. I was stunned that the Hogan blades did so well. I never imagined I would be able to hit them, let alone hit them well. The only good thing out of this money wise is that blades don't really change, and you can get a really good set cheap. My pro has a set of clean MP 33s he is going to lend me, and we will see what happens!

Thanks Chuck--good comments!

I conducted the below experiment, pretty unscientifically, but with a launch monitor. Current handicap is 14 trending down. I wanted to see how much difference there was between my game improvers, blades, and refined cavity backs. I usually love hitting 8 irons--so that is what I hit, except in the Hogan because the 7 iron is basically an 8 iron in modern terms. I'm working on my swing (well, who isn't) but I have some big power leaks I'm curing--but I tried to be making similarly good (or bad) swings. Interesting results: Hogan blade really old—7 iron 36 degrees. Some kind of Apex shaft--unreadable Titleist T300 8 iron—33 degrees. Steelfibre 115s standard length stiff Wilson fg tour V6—39 degrees DG s300 standard standard for Wilson. Wishon 550 mc forged—38 degrees. Stiff steel shaft—half inch long. Results—(all normal swings—not trying to swing out of my shoes, or softly. Longest at 148—T300. I expect I could have gotten more. Second—tie—Hogan blade and Wilson-- --good swings were all 142—146 with both clubs. Average swing 135-139. More good swings with blade. Shortest—the Wishon—even really good strikes were only 140. Best dispersion –Hogan blade and Wilson, tie. Pretty tight—the Hogan tended to miss short, the Wilson a little more side to side. Worst—t300—big misses. Middle—the Wishon. Maybe I should be playing blades, or players cavity backs. I was really getting more out of the blade and the cavity back than the T-300 by a long shot.

Well--I can tell you how they used the sleeves--because a number of pros I knew, and good players did the same thing. You know how when you need to work on "staying connected" people advise sticking a towel or something else under your arm? That's what they were doing under the pretense of keeping the sleeve out of the way--it was in effect providing a reminder/connection (which would be illegal if you did it with a towel on the course) through the use of 90's "fashion".

Thanks for the advice! Revkev, I think you are right about the other forum. The test I did with my son's clubs was more to see how far off the fitting was--or was it close. It wasn't very far off. I'm thinking of going up to a 75@ gram 6.0 shaft--not the 85 gram 7.5 my son plays. I think I would get tired--particualrly as I walk unless it is an exceptional circumstance.

Has anyone used an online fitting system, Truefitclubs, the MGS one etc., and if so with what success. Here is why. I have been fit with “regular” clubs and a light shaft recently. Makes sense–I’m 64 and returning to the game–though I am pretty fit for my age (vanity weightlifting stats on request). Driver SS–94. 7 iron–82-83. I did an on line fit for woods, and, I assume based on my transition speed and distance it fit me in an xtra stiff, heavy shaft (80gs) . I thought, no way. But–that’s what my son-in law plays. So, I borrowed his clubs. I expected abject failure. Instead, I hit it further, my average swing speed went up, and did not not lose it nearly as much to the left–when it went bad (which is my bad shot). I never hit hit a weak pop up or a slice. This leads me to think that the heavier weight allows me to feel the shaft better, and the stiffer shaft goes less left. Any experience with on line fitting–or other explanations–welcome. I have been working a great deal on my swing, so perhaps that’s part of it.

Kev--thanks for the compliment--the courses were wettish, and cold. I think pretty normal carry and roll out. I hit a high draw or sometimes a push. Struggle to keep that from hooking. I play mostly with my son in law, who is 27. Just started playing like a year ago. His swing speed with zero (0) lessons is 115 and he can hit his driver 310 carry, a 5 iron 210. So--I am struggling to keep up, distance wise, and that's what I compare myself to. I don't think I have 115 in me, but I think I can get to 100. It's good to have goals, and keeping ahead of your son-in law--or at least in touch is a good one!

Thanks for all the help! Some answers: 1. At the time of the fitting I was playing a cobra speedback driver -the Ping was intended as an upgrade to that. That was the comparison at the fitter, not the old Callaway. I sold the Cobra to buy the Ping, then pulled the Callaway out of the "Garage Reservoir" where it had been since @2010 because it had no real sale value. 2. The head in the Callaway is the x460--which came out 2006. The shaft was an aftermarket UST Proforce--really stiff shaft--the specs were 77 grams. 2.1 torque, 7 mid shaft stiffness. A very different shaft than the Ping, from what I can tell. 3. So--I will report back, but, I would expect the Ping head to be a great deal better than a 14 plus year old Callaway that was a "bore through"--no adjustability at all. then the question becomes the shaft. I will bring the Callaway and we will compare head to head. I was convinced that at 64, the old proforce was way more shaft than I should try to swing--but apparently not. I wasn't tired when I was at the fitter--but it could be the grip change. 4. My concern was that a.) I might have just spent more money than I needed to on a new driver--but I can't screw the club fitter over, and cancel. 2) might have ordered the wrong shaft. 5. However, we will see, if I am lucky--and the head is really that much better, and the shaft, I hope to see increased distance and KEEP the accuracy.

Thanks Kenny B--the numbers were about the same with the Ping in terms of distance. However, I made a grip change, on the advice of the fitter and my pro--to what I think of is a really neutral grip, and clubhead speed, accuracy and distance all jumped. To be fair, I had not made the change when I was testing the Ping. So, we will see. I had been under the impression I wouldn't be able to swing a stiff that stiff at all, and I would would leaking everything right. Not the case at all. Thanks!

This is one I don't know how to figure out. I'm 64, in pretty good shape, probably significantly stronger than most my age. But still, 64. Coming back to the game after a long hiatus. I never knew what my swing speed was, but I played stiff shafts in all of my clubs. Got fitted by a really good fitter--no surprise recommended regular shafts in everything, lighter driver shafts to pick up speed. Had my driver speed at 89-95. So ordered the Ping 410 plus, Ping tour shaft, regular. OF course, everything Ping takes forever. Started playing with what I had in the garage--a old (2006) Callaway x460 tour, with the old purple and gold proforce, 77 gram shaft, 2.1 torque, 7.0 mid shaft stiffness--which I think is pretty stiff. A little rough beginning, but stuck with it because...no other choice. The last three rounds? Averaging 10-14 fairways, distance 230-260, even the misses are really playable. Hit mostly a baby draw, once in a while a little push. Probably carrying anywhere from 215-240, depending. What the heck is going on--I feel like I can't miss with this club, and am now wondering if I should be getting an equivalent shaft (V2 proforce?) instead of the Ping shaft. I can see how a heavier, stiffer shaft might be more accurate--but this gets really good distance (for me) as well. Any help or advice appreciated!

Glad to be here--didn't start playing till I was 40, got tired of "holding down the office" on Fridays. Then--got really competitive about it, played in tournaments, got down to about an 8. Then took a long hiatus to coach and play another sport. Live in NOVA, play at Pleasant Valley, mostly with my son-in-law. Working on getting competitive again. So much to love about the game--the feeling of a well struck shot is something hard to describe--and to match--in any other sport or athletic endeavor. Don't know any other golf spies, but use MGS recommendations quite a bit! I'm a lawyer, own my firm, but I promise I'm not an A@#H#$e unless it's really necessary. And it almost never is.