So you're serious, you aren't gonna to pay?

[RoverRick]

There are about 12 guys in my normal golf group.  We send a text out Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights telling the tee time for the next day.  The number of guys who show up varies as you might imagine.  The handicaps vary from 2 to 24 and we usually have some type of system to handle that.  We have a number of different money games depending on the number of people who show up but it usually about $1 per hole.  Usually, the most you can lose is $20.  And the last severa weeks the amount of the bets has gone down.

 

Last year, we were playing 6 man wolf.  This was before the money limit.  On the 10th hole, we were all talking about an approaching storm, and I sort of lost track of the bet.  I had hit a poor drive and was concerned, as I always am, about having the lowest score possible on the hole not the bet.  So we get up to the green and one of the higher handicap guys chips in for a birdie.  I will call him Hacker.

 

At the time we played a quota system.  Since no points were awarded for a double bogey or more you could just pick up and save everyone else from watching you make a 12.  Hackers quota was 14 meaning he was expected to make 7 pars or 14 bogies.  As I remember it Hacker was having a horrible day, as he is prone to do.

 

It turned out that Hacker was the wolf and we asked who he picked as his teammate and he said that he had not picked anyone and wolfed.  It was strange because he sort of wolfed by default by just not picking anyone.  Well, we were playing carry overs and double the bet, etc and it worked out that he won $100 on that hole.  It was totally foolish for a 18-20 handicapper to wolf when there were 3 single digits in the group on a par 4, no matter how bad the first shots were.  But that is a different story.

 

We were on the 12th hole when the pro comes out and says there is a severe storm just moments away, and we need to mark our balls and come in.  So we do, and this guy who was the big winner so far picked up his ball and left.  Left the course, the club and got in his car and drove home with out saying a word.

 

The rest of us went to the bar and 20 minutes later went back out and finished the round.  We sent Hacker a text asking what was up and he said the pro said to leave the course so he did.  We pointed out he said to come to the clubhouse not go home.  He did not come back to the course.  When we went back out we could not continue the game we were playing because he was not there so we all decided to play something else and he forfeited the winnings because he left.

 

If he would have come in the bar and talked about it we might have settled the bet then, but he did not.  He showed up the next week and asked for his money and we said what money.  There are four quarters in a football game, nine innings in baseball, and 18 holes in golf.  If you winning the Master's and walk off before you sink the final putt they do not mail you the jacket.

 

Hacker has been playing with us almost every week since then, and occasionally grousing about how we did not pay him his money he won.  Our response is always the same.  He quit and went home.

 

Here is why I am writing this now.  Today was a big county wide event and most people went to that and there were only a few golfers today.  I played 9 and there were 3 of us.  One guy had to leave and take his son to camp.  Then Hacker joined us, then it rained after 12 holes and we quit.  We decided to forfeit all the winnings up to that point because we thought it would rain all day.  Then the sun came out and another joined us and we decided that the four of us would go out and play 9 more.

 

I won the first hole, and Hacker said he was not feeling well and left.  The third hole was won by someone else, and Hacker came back and joined us again on the fifth hole, which I won, and I won the eighth hole.  That is unimportant other than the fact that Hacker was present on the 3 holes I won, and not present when the other hole was won.  Had he not been present at all, then another hole would have been won.

 

So after that nine I stated that I had had enough for the day and was going home.  One guy asked who owed what, I said A player owed me $2, and he and owed me $3 each and owed A $1.  Hacker paid A his $1 and said that he is not paying me anymore money until he gets the $120 he won last year. 

 

I sort of chuckled until I realized he was serious.  I asked about confirmation of this, just to make sure I was not misunderstanding and he said until he had recovered his money that he won but was never paid than he was not paying what he owed.

 

My first reaction was to explode, which I did not.  I simply said, "So you're serious, you aren't gonna pay?" 

 

I decided that I should spend a bit of time in thought about this, but my second reaction is that when he shows up tomorrow, or next time, to join our group, I simply inform him and the others that he is not welcome since he no longer wishes to pay any and all of his losses. 

 

So finally, I am I wrong? 

 

Was he in fact owed money a year ago?

 

What should my reaction be to someone who refuses to pay?

[whiskey golf]

I think that Hacker was wrong here, he left early and forfeited his winnings from last year so he shouldn't get the money now. And he's being greedy for being upset at a bet made a year ago. 

 

And I think banning him until he accepts the terms of paying bets is the right move. Nobody likes people who don't pay up. Luckily it was only a couple dollars this time but it could be worse if it was something like $20-$30. It's still lot of money but it adds up over time. 

[Blade]

He didn't win anything if he left before the round was over.  Kind of a no-brainer.

[RoverRick]

Thanks, sometimes you can be too close to see the big picture.  I certainly do not care about the $3.  Heck, all he had to say was I don't have the money, and I would have said don't worry about it.  This was not the case, we are not exactly playing for rent money.

 

Did I mention that he is my neighbor since 1998?  One house between ours.

[BIG STU]

Thanks, sometimes you can be too close to see the big picture.  I certainly do not care about the $3.  Heck, all he had to say was I don't have the money, and I would have said don't worry about it.  This was not the case, we are not exactly playing for rent money.

 

Did I mention that he is my neighbor since 1998?  One house between ours.

Can agree with you 110% it is not about money it is Principles. Down here people like that we call "knits" don't ask me where that came from but that is what we have always called it. That guy would never play with me again period

[RookieBlue7]

I, personally, think you guys owe him. You decided you were gonna leave after 9 and got everyone to settle up no? He thought the pro said to leave because of weather. Pretty crappy to welch a bet because of a misunderstanding on where the pro tells one to go because of weather. You admit you lost the hole, but you didn't pay him because of a technicality. Okay, so say you're up $150 mid round and get a call on 11 or 12 and have an emergency. You're gonna forfeit the winnings because you can't finish the round right? Same thing happened here. You're right, it's not about the money at all. Have a feeling if it were just a few bucks he'd have gotten paid.

[Sluggo42]

Yup, I'm with rookie here. The guy has a money lead of his life, the weather rolls in and the Marshall tells all to get off the course. It's already goofy now. How was he to know the weather would clear in half an hour and you guys were going to resume?

 

Sounds to me that no set of rock solid standards were previously set up for this type of situation. You guys seemed to have no problem changing to rules at the time to excuse yourselves from paying the highlife of the Hackers life. I don't blame him for telling you guys to piss off now. Like rookie said, if it were only $5 dollars, I bet you guys would have paid up...

 

Or lastly, y'all should pick up the game from the point the weather interrupted it, and finish it proper instead of, in his absence, deeming his winning null and void.

 

I stand with the Hacker...

[Jgolf]

Yup, I'm with rookie here. The guy has a money lead of his life, the weather rolls in and the Marshall tells all to get off the course. It's already goofy now. How was he to know the weather would clear in half an hour and you guys were going to resume?

 

Sounds to me that no set of rock solid standards were previously set up for this type of situation. You guys seemed to have no problem changing to rules at the time to excuse yourselves from paying the highlife of the Hackers life. I don't blame him for telling you guys to piss off now. Like rookie said, if it were only $5 dollars, I bet you guys would have paid up...

 

Or lastly, y'all should pick up the game from the point the weather interrupted it, and finish it proper instead of, in his absence, deeming his winning null and void.

 

I stand with the Hacker...

 

 

It is undoubtedly a complicated situation... 

 

I would suggest as sluggo did above that you organize the same group and play the back 9 again as if you were just making the turn. He misunderstood, and we obviously don't know all the details, but it would seem fair to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he went home because he legitimately thought that golf was over for the day.

[BK in TEXAS]

Bottom line is (right or wrong) he feels cheated.  It is definitely an unusual circumstance.  Personally, I'd tell him you both think you are right, but didn't realize he was so upset about it.  I wouldn't give in and pay him, but I would definitely say let's get the other 2 guys together and finish the match.  That not only seems like a perfect compromise, it seems fair.

[RookieBlue7]

My thing is, if his handicap is as high as suggested, I'm willing to bet as a whole he's lost a lot more than the $100. He gets up a good bit in a match and doesn't get paid for being up. Right, wrong, or indifferent, he has a right to be pissed and to make the snide comment every time. He was up for a change and it's like "oh well, sorry bout your luck buddy, we're changing the rules midstream".

 

I got a paypal card reader for the sole purpose of golf course gambling. Lol. Well, not the sole purpose but it was the reason I ordered it. People would conveniently not have cash and wouldn't pay. They were confused and startled the first time after it arrived and I whipped the card reader out. Told them it's fine if they don't have cash, I take cards now and will add a 2.5% surcharge on top of what they owed to cover the paypal fee . Didn't take but once or twice and they were on board with showing up with cash.

[Tyk]

Unfortunately any time money is involved, even small stakes, this kind of stuff is going to happen.  I think Hacker does have some call to be upset, but he does not have the right to enter into more games and decide who he is paying.  The past bet doesn't have anything to do with future games.  If he doesn't want to bet with you guys anymore, that is his right, but he needs to make that clear.

 

I think you guys should pay him.  It was a funky situation and you guys had no real protocol set up for how to deal with things if the round isn't finished.  It's easy to say "if you don't finish, the bets are off", but you guys seem to make plenty of exceptions to that, so why should you not make the exception for him?  IMO, the honorable thing to do is give him the benefit of the doubt and pay him.  

 

The way we deal with this stuff is kind of inconsistent too.  Usually, if any round is not finished, then all bets are off except for the skins pot.  I could easily see something like this happening in our group too.  

[whiskey golf]

One other thing, did he bring this up a few days after the bet made a year ago? Because if he did then maybe there should have been a slight compromise back then but he shouldn't be payed for waiting a whole year before saying something. I mean if it still bothers him to this day then he really should have argued this last year, don't wait so long then argue it. 

[RoverRick]

This is not our first and only rain out. In this case it was not even a rainout. We simply had a weather delay. But it is standard procedure that if there is a rainout the bet is voided. We often joke that if we are not playing well that we are praying for rain. We contacted him and said at the time if he did not return than we would void the match and start over.

 

It has also been a year and I can not even remember who was there that day. Weather delays are frequent but rainouts are rare

 

I really have no idea why this came up again yesterday or why he has singled me out other than the fact that I was the one trying to get him to return so we could finish the round.

 

Today we played the last two holes poorly. And I said that we quit after 16 holes and they lost. Haha. Actually we ended in a tie but he did not stick around for the rematch.

[apprenti23]

You're all losers in this one. Don't gamble with people who are either a. Dbags b. cheaters or c. Don't understand the rules. If you play every week you should have policies set in place in case of weather or tummy aches. People can't just up and leave mid round, come back, play two holes, and then leave again. That's a joke. This money "game" you're playing sounds like one big joke.

 

After the shenanigans pulled last year where Houdini just up and left I would've never invited him to play again.

[bcgolf]

They way YOU tell it, it is clear Hacker is in the wrong.  

But we haven't heard HIS part f the story ;-)

[xxio]

We play skins + points for birdies, sandy pars, etc. and nassau. If at any time of the round it gets called for weather we pay up for the skins, points, and any parts of the nassau completed.

 

The money for the holes and points are earned at the completion of the hole. We all had the chance for that specific hole.

 

Edit to add- if all other groups have finished up to that hole, all points won/lost by the guys in those groups count as well.

 

My point being Hacker got lucky on one hole and cleaned out. The money is his at that point, same as the $2 the guys gave you after 9 holes. You had already won it. If he had won $2 it probably wouldn't be a big deal, your $2 dosen't seem to be so.

 

The thing I find ironic is you were the one who quit on your own volition and still got paid. Hacker got legitimately rained out and doesn't get squat.

[Sluggo42]

I would guess Hacker remembers who was in the group....

 

Re-stage the event, make an event, sell tickets, hire Go-Go girls, open bar, and ESPN coverage!

 

Let us know what happens

[revkev]

This is a good reason to have the rules written in stone beforehand - My league and money game are clear - if half the field can't finish the round it's rained out and if you don't finish your round you don't collect any winnings.  Black and white, plain and simple.

 

In this case I'd have to think you go with precedent - what have you done in the past and in the end there is going to be someone who is unhappy.  It came up now because he's been stewing over it for a year.  Feuds start over far smaller things than this. 

[JBones]

I don't see an issue here.  You leave in the middle of a round, you forfeit.  I birdie the first hole in a tourney, do I walk off and get to claim a score of -1?  You leave in the middle of a round, whether it be for weather or personal reasons, you forfeit score and money...............it's quite simple.  

[Jmikecpa]

This is one of the main reasons that i generally refrain from gambling on the golf course.  I play a few local tracks near me and generally as early as possible on a Saturday morning so I can spend the day with my family.  I played a few months back with a group that I had never played with before and the other three knew each other and wanted to play a small money game ( i think the most I could lose was $20).  I made no bones about my index and disclosed that I was scratch on the first tee and got the guy that they said was the least accomplished of the three.  After a three pars to start my day I had a three hole stretch of birdie, eagle, birdie and then closed with a birdie on 9.  I could tell that one of the guys we were playing against, I will call him DB was getting annoyed that we were going to take the front nine and he was out like $10.  We get to 10 which is a drivable par 4 that I knock 3 wood onto the front of the green and DB goes ballistic accusing the guy I am paired with of bringing in a ringer and starts yelling at me.  I ended up telling DB very nicely where he could shove his money and played the back nine ahead of these guys as a single and after a 30 on the front nine I shot 40 on the back (and yes I did three jack #10 for a par).  A week later same course and a time a bit later and who is in my group but my buddy DB........

[RookieBlue7]

I don't see an issue here. You leave in the middle of a round, you forfeit. I birdie the first hole in a tourney, do I walk off and get to claim a score of -1? You leave in the middle of a round, whether it be for weather or personal reasons, you forfeit score and money...............it's quite simple.

So if someone is down say $100 and they leave on say #12, they forfeit and don't owe? Gotcha. Same principle, other side of the coin.

 

It'd be different if this were a bright and sunny day and all that. But the pro came out and pulled them off the course. There was a misunderstanding as to where to go. So say buddy was down $100 or whatever. He misunderstood where the pro said to go so he's exempt from paying because he didn't finish? Again, same thing different side.

[RookieBlue7]

ROOTFLMAO, Dude, and I mean this. This is the f*ckin best, LMFAO.

 

I would pay money, and let there be no misunderstanding, I'd pay money to see the look on one of these d*uchebag's face when ya pull that out, and just for sh*ts & giggles, I'd use PayPal, lol

 

That's unbelievable!!

 

Ok, pertaining to the matter at hand, I really can see both sides and I would just say that Apprenti's advice is the best for future matches however if you value this guy and/or his friendship, do as Sluggo suggested and resume the match and finish it out.

 

Obviously, as Apprenti said, this should definitely be worked out in the future beforehand.

 

I commend your restraint because I've seen friendships fractured over far less.

 

Money has a way of doin that.

 

Let us know how it finally works out.

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

Oh it was hilarious. I wished I had a video of it. One said his wife had his card, another doesn't bring anything to the course with him and one had a card and paid. I mainly did it for shits and giggles and I got plenty of giggles to myself. I do actually use the card reader for other stuff. When a buddy wants me to find him clubs because he can't find them, he uses his card. The wifey makes children's clothes and sells them at craft fairs, on her FB page, etc. I have the card reader when people that order don't have cash. It's actually more convenient than if think. I have a paypal debit card too so I can just withdraw the money anywhere. I even use it at work when we place a big lunch order. Everyone pays me with it then I just use the paypal card so there's not 15 transactions.

[JBones]

So if someone is down say $100 and they leave on say #12, they forfeit and don't owe? Gotcha. Same principle, other side of the coin.

 

It'd be different if this were a bright and sunny day and all that. But the pro came out and pulled them off the course. There was a misunderstanding as to where to go. So say buddy was down $100 or whatever. He misunderstood where the pro said to go so he's exempt from paying because he didn't finish? Again, same thing different side.

Nope, completely different and I don't recall that being the issue here.

[RookieBlue7]

Nope, completely different and I don't recall that being the issue here.

Not really, you said you leave mid round be it weather, or whatever, you forfeit the score and the money. Does it not go both ways? You still forfeit the score/game, so thus the losses should be forfeited as well(ie those that continue forfeit that money).

 

The dude got screwed by the weather and an on the spot made up rule. So I suppose to combat that, the only real way to do it to make sure no one gets screwed is to settle up after every single hole. In the event that the weather might get bad, someone may get a case of the trots or get struck by lightning or a bomb detonates next to the course or whatever.

 

I'll tell you how we handle things like this, when the event that stops play happens, be it rain, injury (has happened a guy stepped in a hole and torqued his back), acts of god, sickness, work or whatever. We settle up right then and the person leaving pays everyone the base bet for the remainder of the round. For example the guy that tweaked his back did it on 7. He paid his bets he'd lost (2) then paid everyone 11 bets for the remainder of the round ($1 a hole, or $11 each). That doesn't include the trash/side bets like birdies, etc. just the base bet for loss of hole.

[SMRT]

I have to agree that if you leave early you forfeit. If he really did not know the rules then maybe you could let it go and pay him for the one time but from there forward he should know. It sounds like he should have made a big deal about sooner so it could have gotten straightened out.

It would be easy now, just make everyone throw in $20 when the game starts and it gets distributed at the end. If he does not put in to start, he goes home. Again!

 

Good Luck.

[RoverRick]

This was not his one and only time to play with us. He has been playing with us for the better part of 3 years. He knows the rules. Just thinks they should not apply to him.

[Hula Rock]

you leave, you forfeit, simple.  This is a Gentlemans' game.......

[dru_]

We've even gone so far as stating that if you bolt after the round before the scores are called, your winnings go back into the pot to be redistributed.  "Must Be Present To Win".

[rickkimbrell]

When you are playing for real money, not just drinks afterwards, you need to establish some rules.  At one point, you mentioned another time, when he played, left, came back...how do you do that when there are bets going on?  Glad I am not involved there.

 

Now, on the $100 or $120, saw both numbers mentioned...explain to me how he won that much.  I play wolf, 5 man usually, and have never seen someone win that much money on 1 birdie even with carry overs.  You mentioned y'all played for a $1 a hole.  Was it different on this day?  Exactly how did he amass winning of either $100 or $120 in 12 holes in 6 man wolf for a $1 a hole?

 

As far as who is in the right, I have always looked at it this way...whatever money you have won or lost up to the point where you or the other person has to leave...you either are due that money or you owe that money.  Aren't you playing this hole by hole?  Now, if you are playing something like front/back/total...that is different. 

[AH1980MN]

   obvious. he forfeited when he left the grounds. all bets are off. some may be mad about it, but he chose to invalidate an agreed upon game. my advice would be to not engage in money games with him again. those were the rules- he knew them, he broke one. and broke a major rule of engagement.

   imo- all games are to be started, played, and finished on the grounds where they are played. vacating the premises constitutes invalidation of the game for all players. there is a trust factor in who you choose to play with- one must first pass muster, and all. like going duck hunting with a bad liar- all those birds were his, right?