Fitting a sham?

[revkev]

As many of you know I came here from another site via rookie and dog pro. I have several friends on that site and have played with lots of the guys from it.

 

By in large that group is very sceptic all of fitting thinking that they are better off with off the rack clubs. In their collective opinion it's always the Indian and never the arrow.

 

How does one go about convincing them otherwise?

[GolfSpy WD]

I do partially agree that many people out there won't benefit much from a real fitting. When they can cost quite a bit, it's just not worth it for a huge portion of golfers. Especially when you can try last year's stuff in store and make a decent decision that way.

 

Now there are golfers out there who benefit majorly from fitting. Play with the trackman tool online sometime and you'll see unless your swing speed is 100+, you'll find everything you need off the rack.

[Paul S]

I think that the largest impact I've seen from my own personal fittings has been lie angle. For the average golfer, simply hitting off a lie board and adjusting the lie will certainly help increase the quality of contact. In fact, in most cases I feel that just a lie adjustment will do, in lieu of a full fitting.

 

For a full fitting to be advantageous you need to be comfortable with your swing and relatively consistent.

[Mr_Theoo]

I think a basic fitting would help just about anyone. Knowing what shafts to play in at least the irons is big. Even if it's just finding the right length and flex.

[hckymeyer]

Im a big proponent that anyone can benefit from a fitting. It may be a little, it may be a lot, or it may even just be on the mental side. Knowing you have the best equipment for your swing will always be a good thing.

 

How to convince someone who doesn't believe in it though is a pretty tough challenge. I would say have them join MGS and hang around for a bit. Have them talk to their local Pro and see what he says. There is also a decent article on PGA.com they can read.

 

http://www.pga.com/getting-fit-well-worth-investment

 

In the end though all you can do is try to educate them and if they still don't get it, just keep taking their money out on the course

[DanUsh]

For the beginning golfer who does not have a consistent a full fitting may not be right for them.  But to get the basics of the right length and right lie for their swing will help them.  As they improve having their lie angle checked will also help with their overall improvement.  Once someone is committed to golf and a swing and truly improving then a full fitting to find the best shaft for their swing will be beneficial.

 

In order to change their mind is to show them with performance the benefits of being fitted.  To show the difference between the same set of clubs off the rack and the fitted set.  Some people have the swing to play what is off the rack and that is great for them but for the rest of us our game has benefitted from getting properly fit to the right length, lie, and shaft.  

 

I am looking forward to getting fit once the weather warms up here so I can get the right shaft and right gaps in distance.

[RookieBlue7]

Rev,

I gave up on them. Some people don't see the value in fitting or just don't care. If you're not gonna pay for it to prove your point, you're wasting your time.

 

You can preach fitting all you want (sorry, not a pun), but most of the people you're talking about (as I still visit infrequently) aren't motivated like posters here are. They take what they can get and aren't willing to put in the work or they're not caring.

[BIG STU]

Rev,

I gave up on them. Some people don't see the value in fitting or just don't care. If you're not gonna pay for it to prove your point, you're wasting your time.

 

You can preach fitting all you want (sorry, not a pun), but most of the people you're talking about (as I still visit infrequently) aren't motivated like posters here are. They take what they can get and aren't willing to put in the work or they're not caring.

Dead in the screws on that statement about the "work" or effort. I watch my friend who is a teacher and clubfitter work with people all the time. These people will take a lesson or 2 from him but do not practice or work on what he has taught them in between. They wonder why their golf does not improve. I watch hackers on this one range I go to belt ball after ball ingraining bad habits and they wonder why they don't improve. They really don't know golf and know the benefits of proper fitting and/or lessons. Actually sit back like I do and observe and it is amazing what the average Joe hacker does not know or put forth any effort to learn

[revkev]

WD we aren't talking full fitting just the basic flex lie type thing. We also aren't talking beginners so they all have established swings.

 

Sadly I think rookie is right. There are a lot of guys on that site that I really like on a personal level. I've played with quite a number of them. Very few play well and many are convinced they know everything there is to know about the game. I would love to see them get better. I know that I did when my pro fit me and since then I've learned tons about equipment mainly from you guys but certainly from rookie and reading on my own prior to coming here.

 

In the end if they won't be convinced they won't. It's just frustrating.

[Shambles]

I don't see the reason for the frustration.

 

Fitting is not magic unless the clubs are really that unfit. Most of the time Off The Rack with a wave or two before buying is plenty good enough simply because most people simply won't put enough time into practice and learning to truly benefit from the fitting because practice costs more than people are willing to spend. Fitting, for too many people, is a waste of money unless that person is willing to spend the needed time and effort to learn the clubs. If he's the weekend warrior type, fitting is just another anecdote and the most he can get from one is a bit more learning.

 

 

Shambles.

[Maverickping]

I wouldn't spend a minute trying to convince them.Off the rack who knows what the flex of the shaft is? Could be anything. Many other things that make it worthwhile also. Combine a proper fit set of clubs and lessons, plus practice is what I believe.

[GolfSpy WD]

WD we aren't talking full fitting just the basic flex lie type thing. We also aren't talking beginners so they all have established swings.

 

Sadly I think rookie is right. There are a lot of guys on that site that I really like on a personal level. I've played with quite a number of them. Very few play well and many are convinced they know everything there is to know about the game. I would love to see them get better. I know that I did when my pro fit me and since then I've learned tons about equipment mainly from you guys but certainly from rookie and reading on my own prior to coming here.

 

In the end if they won't be convinced they won't. It's just frustrating.

 

I agree for people who have established swings that they should at least get a basic fitting. It comes down to money and time though, and you're right that most people just aren't willing to shell out money for something they can't immediately perceive as a difference. Lie angle only helps you hit it straighter after all, not farther.

[BIG STU]

I wouldn't spend a minute trying to convince them.Off the rack who knows what the flex of the shaft is? Could be anything. Many other things that make it worthwhile also. Combine a proper fit set of clubs and lessons, plus practice is what I believe.

You are correct on off the rack flexes being questionable. I have seen brand new clubs out of the box have a wide number of variance on shaft flexes and lofts and lies be off considerably. I am not going to pick one big brand because I have seen it with all of them honestly. In all fairness I have seen some component heads be vastly different from what is marked on the wrapper at the factory. I have learned it always pays to check and clones I don't even want to go there

[txgolfjunkie]

So in summary...the better the golfer, the more club fitting becomes vital.

 

Beginner? Off the rack is fine.

 

You start making it to a12 handicap and below? Go get fitted.

 

Heck I'm scratch and got fit for every club in my bag except driver. Drivers I just bought off the rack and threw in my favorite shaft. Then I spent some coin to get fit on a trackman and picked up 17 yards on a proper fitting. Turns out what I thought was helping my swing was actually hurting it.

 

If you've made golf important in your life and see you're getting better, so yourself a favor and go get fit properly.

[dcorun]

I feel a simple fitting for the average golfer is a good thing especially with all the adjustments drivers have now. The pro from the PGA Superstore worked with me on fitting me to the right shaft and loft for the Cleveland Classic XL driver I bought and we went with the 10.5*,  Miyasaki JDL6 shaft for a good combo of distance and control and set to -0.75 draw bias ( I would have bought the one w/ the JDL5 off the rack and ended up finding it too whippy). I had my MT irons adjusted 1.5* upright (always used off the rack with no adjustment). I'm now hittting my irons better than I ever have and I didn't need to tinker all day with my driver.  He did it for me and now my driver and irons are set for my swing and swing speed. Also suggested I play the Titliest NXT or Srixon Q-Star ball after hitting both. Plus it's all free if you buy your clubs from them. A very interesting and worthwhile experience after 30 some years of playing clubs off the rack IMHO.

[mackdaddy]

Not all fittings are created equally!  I have had a great fitting and a poor one. 

 

First off you have to have a repeating swing.  

 

You have to have a great fitter and the time for them to do it right, pay for the hours to get the job done right!  My first fitting took 35 minutes and it was all inside.  Standard fit Cobra Irons, cast and strait off the rack.

 

The second fitting:  Started with an interview. 

 

They measured my hands, the height off the floor of my fingers. They used marking tapes, lie angle tapes and all the launch monitors and other tech stuff.  They needed to see the balls fly too, which means a range.   Make sure they change the tape after you hit on the marking board because multiple swings will often blur together on the tape.  I was hitting the toe first but my first fitter missed it because he had me swing several times before pulling the tape and one heavy swing marked the entire bottom.   The second fitter used several elements to fit me.  I suggest that you reference something like Golf Digests top fitters list, or google top fitters in your area.  Someone with a broad selection of clubs and shafts to choose from!  

 

My first fitting gained me some yards but near nothing on the course.  The next fitting was with a top 100 fitter and it made a world of difference.  My every shot fade became strait and enabled me to hit a draw at will or a fade.   I gained full control over the ball in a few short weeks and lowered my handicap by 7 strokes.  If I had only had the first fitting I would say skip it but after the second one I am 1000% for them.  My guy even taped over the brand names so I wouldn't be influenced by advertising or ego.   I had never heard of KZG nor ever hit forged irons, I never considered a graphite iron shaft and yet I ended up with all three.  Thank God I won a $1000 gift certificate to a golf shop in a tourney or I'd never have gone for another fitting. 

 

I am 1.5* upright and 1" long with mid size grips except on my wedges which are oversized Winn wraps for feel and I love the groves in the wraps to pull against when I need a few extra yards.

[RoverRick]

I went Monday to the PGA Superstore in Dallas for the purpose of getting a proper fitting with the TMag SLDR driver.  I have been working on major swing changes and was so excited to get the new swing checked out and a driver to fit it.

 

It did not work out that way.  After spend several hours in the car getting there and running around, I did not have my swing.  My back hurt and nothing was firing right and I had my old swing with an early release and it would have done me know good what-so-ever to have gotten a proper fitting because it was not a good swing. 

 

So instead, I did hit the SLDR and R1 along with my R9 Super Deep.  While I did not hit any of them like I had the previous day on the course, I hit them enough to learn what I needed.  I also spent some time on different irons and found out my next set of irons.  I ordered a set and will have them at least by Monday so I will be posting pics and telling what they are some time next week.

 

As for the SLDR?  Well, It reminded me of the 1984 Chevrolet Camaro.  No matter what you did, it still rattled.  I hit 6 different SLDR's and all of them either rattled when I hit it or after I hit it.  Not sure if that was because they were demo's or what but the slider came loose constantly.  The numbers were not significantly different than R1 and even closer to the Super Deep.  Either way, I was not inclined to spend money on a new driver that did not out perform my old one.  I guess that is why I still have a 2009 driver in the rotation.

 

Irons on the other hand...  Well, let's just say it is like getting back together with an old flame.  Major brand change and back to one that I played for a number of years. 

 

As far as answering RevKev's question, how do you convince someone to get properly fit, I have no idea.  I have never been fit simply because the distance to a fitter is so far and I do not ever swing the same there as I do here,

[gunmetal]

I do partially agree that many people out there won't benefit much from a real fitting. When they can cost quite a bit, it's just not worth it for a huge portion of golfers. Especially when you can try last year's stuff in store and make a decent decision that way.

 

Now there are golfers out there who benefit majorly from fitting. Play with the trackman tool online sometime and you'll see unless your swing speed is 100+, you'll find everything you need off the rack.

 

All due respect, I couldn't disagree more.  Swing Speed has nothing to do with determining whether or not a player could benefit from a fitting.  

-Off the rack means 45", 46", and sometimes longer driver lengths.  In other words too long for Pros.  Way too long for amateurs.  

-Off the rack means light weight, not right weight and standard run of the mill D2 swingweight.  

-Off the rack means standard grip size.  

-Off the rack means "the best loft for you is one of these we have in stock". 

Obviously I could go on and on.  And the funny thing is a lot of times the lesser player benefits more from finding the proper specs than the single digit.  Better players can pick up anything and play with it because they have the talent/athletic ability to do so.  Unfortunately the misconceptions like "I'm not good enough to get fit" dominate and in the end it's usually the low capper looking for any last edge who will pay for a proper fitting.  Not always, but seems like it.

[Dropking]

I went for a fitting and the fitter said my standard off-the-shelf equipment fitted me like a glove and he could not better my figures with the latest stuff. I guess I must be Mr Average!!!

[whiskey golf]

All due respect, I couldn't disagree more.  Swing Speed has nothing to do with determining whether or not a player could benefit from a fitting.  

-Off the rack means 45", 46", and sometimes longer driver lengths.  In other words too long for Pros.  Way too long for amateurs.  

-Off the rack means light weight, not right weight and standard run of the mill D2 swingweight.  

-Off the rack means standard grip size.  

-Off the rack means "the best loft for you is one of these we have in stock". 

Obviously I could go on and on.  And the funny thing is a lot of times the lesser player benefits more from finding the proper specs than the single digit.  Better players can pick up anything and play with it because they have the talent/athletic ability to do so.  Unfortunately the misconceptions like "I'm not good enough to get fit" dominate and in the end it's usually the low capper looking for any last edge who will pay for a proper fitting.  Not always, but seems like it.

 

Yes but companies such as Titleist for example offer plenty of stock options that cover different flex profiles, weights, etc. for no upcharge. I think that WD is referring to these custom shafts that cost $300+, the majority of amateurs with sub 100 mph swing speeds don't need them because they can find something else that will work for them. But advanced players with high swing speeds will have a hard time adjusting to stock options since they are targeted more towards the players with moderate speeds. A simple fitting can get you set up with a decent fitting shaft with the proper length and you can mess around with adjustable weighting to see what works best. And grips can be self fit and can be based off of feel. This is my belief for woods but irons is a different story in my opinion. 

[kygolfer1980]

I think it depends on the fitter.  Many fitters want to get a club sold and get you out it seems.  They lock you in when they get the numbers that make them happy even if you have maybe only tried 1-2 shafts.  I would just make sure they go to someone committed to the process so they aren't discouraged and they get the proper results.

[revkev]

All due respect, I couldn't disagree more.  Swing Speed has nothing to do with determining whether or not a player could benefit from a fitting.  

-Off the rack means 45", 46", and sometimes longer driver lengths.  In other words too long for Pros.  Way too long for amateurs.  

-Off the rack means light weight, not right weight and standard run of the mill D2 swingweight.  

-Off the rack means standard grip size.  

-Off the rack means "the best loft for you is one of these we have in stock". 

Obviously I could go on and on.  And the funny thing is a lot of times the lesser player benefits more from finding the proper specs than the single digit.  Better players can pick up anything and play with it because they have the talent/athletic ability to do so.  Unfortunately the misconceptions like "I'm not good enough to get fit" dominate and in the end it's usually the low capper looking for any last edge who will pay for a proper fitting.  Not always, but seems like it.

I think this is spot on. None of these changes are major or expensive but simply using a driver with a shaft that is less than 45" might save a mid handicapper 2 strokes a round. I have one friend on that site who always and I mean always pulls his irons. He's convinced it's him. Not a chance. He's a 9 he has a solid swing. It's the lie on his irons.

 

Someone else suggested referencing the fitting section in golf digest. I will give that a try.

[GolfSpy WD]

All due respect, I couldn't disagree more.  Swing Speed has nothing to do with determining whether or not a player could benefit from a fitting.  

-Off the rack means 45", 46", and sometimes longer driver lengths.  In other words too long for Pros.  Way too long for amateurs.  

-Off the rack means light weight, not right weight and standard run of the mill D2 swingweight.  

-Off the rack means standard grip size.  

-Off the rack means "the best loft for you is one of these we have in stock". 

Obviously I could go on and on.  And the funny thing is a lot of times the lesser player benefits more from finding the proper specs than the single digit.  Better players can pick up anything and play with it because they have the talent/athletic ability to do so.  Unfortunately the misconceptions like "I'm not good enough to get fit" dominate and in the end it's usually the low capper looking for any last edge who will pay for a proper fitting.  Not always, but seems like it.

 

Fair point, especially about the grip size, though most people do fit into standard grip. I split golfers into a few categories in terms of fitting. My point was really about fitting the proper shaft rather than the basic stuff, but I did a poor job saying that in my original post. Flat out, until a golfer is good enough to not flip a club, they cannot be fit in this manner.

 

For beginners and most golfers, I wouldn't worry about weight so much beyond what's available for stock. The main concern would be length and grip, since not having these correct can lead to poor habits. I hadn't thought of that before, so I'll cede that point. Neither of these are hard to fix though. Everything else can be found off the shelf though for 90% of golfers.

[revkev]

Length of driver is huge though. Huge it's why I totally disagree with the notion that fitting is only for better golfers.

[GolfSpy WD]

Length of driver is huge though. Huge it's why I totally disagree with the notion that fitting is only for better golfers.

 

I did mention grip and length as something that even beginners need? Forgot shaft flex. Definitely want proper flex. Beyond that you're going to bore most of the population.

 

That said, to say stock vs shorter drive length is huge is a bit much. The MGS labs found an average of 5 yards difference offline with a 43.75" driver and a 45.75" driver. With the shorter hitter, the difference in both distance and yards offline was negligible. Plus, good luck selling a shorter driver shaft to most people.

 

http://www.mygolfspy.com/mgs-labs-is-longer-really-longer/

[Shambles]

Length of driver is huge though. Huge it's why I totally disagree with the notion that fitting is only for better golfers.

 

 

Length has a part, so does the weight of the shaft, weight of the head, lie and loft, club center of balance, all related to how the player swings, what he's comfortable with. There is also the business of the golfer's golf muscles. They are there, we just don't use them in our daily lives and do need to do some work to get them into business. Too many of us have forgotten our birth pains. Real fitting ain't easy.

 

 

 

Shambles

[revkev]

I did mention grip and length as something that even beginners need? Forgot shaft flex. Definitely want proper flex. Beyond that you're going to bore most of the population.

 

That said, to say stock vs shorter drive length is huge is a bit much. The MGS labs found an average of 5 yards difference offline with a 43.75" driver and a 45.75" driver. With the shorter hitter, the difference in both distance and yards offline was negligible. Plus, good luck selling a shorter driver shaft to most people.

 

http://www.mygolfspy.com/mgs-labs-is-longer-really-longer/

I did mention grip and length as something that even beginners need? Forgot shaft flex. Definitely want proper flex. Beyond that you're going to bore most of the population.

 

That said, to say stock vs shorter drive length is huge is a bit much. The MGS labs found an average of 5 yards difference offline with a 43.75" driver and a 45.75" driver. With the shorter hitter, the difference in both distance and yards offline was negligible. Plus, good luck selling a shorter driver shaft to most people.

 

http://www.mygolfspy.com/mgs-labs-is-longer-really-longer/

Okay so I agree . I will change the huge to makes a difference. Five yards right or left can add up to strokes beyond a doubt and we haven't gotten to the bad habits that swinging a club that is too long may create.

[GolfSpy WD]

Okay so I agree . I will change the huge to makes a difference. Five yards right or left can add up to strokes beyond a doubt and we haven't gotten to the bad habits that swinging a club that is too long may create.

 

That was my point on the length, but that's mainly for wedges and irons. Most of us on the forums agree with 5 yards being a big deal, but it would be a hard sell for most people I know.

 

Hell, one of my friends is just happen when he hits the ball into the air. No way I'd recommend he get fit beyond length/flex. However, since he's of average height and normal hand sizes, he doesn't even need to worry about that.