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State of Golf in the US today, How bad is it?


markb

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Honestly, I think Pace of Play is an issue that needs to be addressed not through ads and marshals but evolution of golf etiquette and subtle rule changes for non-tournament play, and I include most casual group games.

 

1. Deal with lost balls better. We don't have galleries that see a ball land. Sometimes a ball in play is simply not going to found.  Going back to the tee box is a waste of time in all but tournament play.

 

2. Play provisionals when there is ANY doubt (or treat OOB as laterals either works)

 

3. "looking for a ball". 5 minutes? sorry, but no.  2 minutes.  IF you haven't found it in the first 120 seconds, then you are in the wrong spot.  See #1 and move on.

 

4. Bathrooms, uggh.  IF you have to make a run to the bathroom, take your equitable on the hole and let the group play on.

 

5. Cell Phones, they have changed how we live.  There is no such thing as getting away anymore, so just deal with it.  Gotta take a call? keep moving. Take Equitable and MOVE ON.

 

6. Ready golf. Need I say more?  keep moving towards your ball (safely). You do not need 2 carts or 4 people hovering over every swing.  get to your ball, and be ready to play.  It is not a hard concept. 

 

7. Awareness. 4 somes dictate the pace of play. This goes two ways.  If a 4 some is pushing you and you aren't pushing another group, then you are PLAYING TOO SLOW! If you are playing slow, be aware of the groups around you and when/if feasible let them play through, or take equitable on a hole and move up. 

 

8. Yes, you paid a lot for the privilege to play, so did the people behind you.  Your money spent does not, the right to be an *******, grant you.

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Why are golf courses losing golfers? Because it's time consuming, courses are too long and they don't market to women. It's that simple.

 

It takes too long because courses are too long for the average amateur. Even at 6800 yards, that's too long for 95% if the golf population and hitting longer clubs into greens means less GIR and less fun plus more time to play. People want to hit the same irons into greens as pros do. You have to shorten courses for that to happen.

 

As far as not marketing to women, how many courses do you know that truly market to them? Have women's associations in conjunction with the men's? Have comparable lockerrooms? Have women's tees that aren't just thrown out in the fairway as an after thought? Bring the women to the course, and you'll be a healthier business, because women enjoy golf as well. And their courses should be well under the 5k yard average. That's too long for them as well and they're not hitting close to the same clubs as LPGA players they watch on TV do.

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Honestly, I think Pace of Play is an issue that needs to be addressed not through ads and marshals but evolution of golf etiquette and subtle rule changes for non-tournament play, and I include most casual group games.

 

1. Deal with lost balls better. We don't have galleries that see a ball land. Sometimes a ball in play is simply not going to found.  Going back to the tee box is a waste of time in all but tournament play.

 

2. Play provisionals when there is ANY doubt (or treat OOB as laterals either works)

 

3. "looking for a ball". 5 minutes? sorry, but no.  2 minutes.  IF you haven't found it in the first 120 seconds, then you are in the wrong spot.  See #1 and move on.

 

4. Bathrooms, uggh.  IF you have to make a run to the bathroom, take your equitable on the hole and let the group play on.

 

5. Cell Phones, they have changed how we live.  There is no such thing as getting away anymore, so just deal with it.  Gotta take a call? keep moving. Take Equitable and MOVE ON.

 

6. Ready golf. Need I say more?  keep moving towards your ball (safely). You do not need 2 carts or 4 people hovering over every swing.  get to your ball, and be ready to play.  It is not a hard concept. 

 

7. Awareness. 4 somes dictate the pace of play. This goes two ways.  If a 4 some is pushing you and you aren't pushing another group, then you are PLAYING TOO SLOW! If you are playing slow, be aware of the groups around you and when/if feasible let them play through, or take equitable on a hole and move up. 

 

8. Yes, you paid a lot for the privilege to play, so did the people behind you.  Your money spent does not, the right to be an *******, grant you.

 

All good with a couple of comments:

  • Unless it is a tournament or you are scoring for GHIN, a lost ball or OB should be played from where you think it was lost or went OB (2 minutes is enough and this is not an opportunity to look for other balls), add a stroke; remember it's supposed to be fun.
  • Cell phones?  If it isn't a real emergency, you are "out of play" until you are off the phone; play doesn't stop for everyone else.  This usually works to get people off the phone quickly.
  • 4-somes dictating play?  Not sure I agree in all cases.  We have one 4-some that can play 18 in under 3 hours if there is no one else on the course.  Unfortunately, when the course is crowded, they press until the group in front lets them through, even if that group is not playing slow and there is nowhere for them to go anyway.  As a result, play gets backed up behind them as the groups wait for them to play through.  
  • Also, you should try to play as a 4-some when the clubhouse puts out several 2-somes behind you and they don't pair up.  It can be a very long round if you let every one of them play through.  This actually happened a very nice resort course in the Cascade mountains of Washington.
  • Yes, I paid a lot of money to play this course, and not to be harassed on every hole.  We can play under 4.5 hours, but if the course allows 2-somes, I have a right to be an *******, and they have a right to pair up!

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Why are golf courses losing golfers? Because it's time consuming, courses are too long and they don't market to women. It's that simple.

 

It takes too long because courses are too long for the average amateur. Even at 6800 yards, that's too long for 95% if the golf population and hitting longer clubs into greens means less GIR and less fun plus more time to play. People want to hit the same irons into greens as pros do. You have to shorten courses for that to happen.

 

As far as not marketing to women, how many courses do you know that truly market to them? Have women's associations in conjunction with the men's? Have comparable lockerrooms? Have women's tees that aren't just thrown out in the fairway as an after thought? Bring the women to the course, and you'll be a healthier business, because women enjoy golf as well. And their courses should be well under the 5k yard average. That's too long for them as well and they're not hitting close to the same clubs as LPGA players they watch on TV do.

 

I disagree. Courses in my area are usually closer to 6k in length from the tips. We still get 5 hour rounds.

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Why are golf courses losing golfers? Because it's time consuming, courses are too long and they don't market to women. It's that simple.

 

It takes too long because courses are too long for the average amateur. Even at 6800 yards, that's too long for 95% if the golf population and hitting longer clubs into greens means less GIR and less fun plus more time to play. People want to hit the same irons into greens as pros do. You have to shorten courses for that to happen.

 

As far as not marketing to women, how many courses do you know that truly market to them? Have women's associations in conjunction with the men's? Have comparable lockerrooms? Have women's tees that aren't just thrown out in the fairway as an after thought? Bring the women to the course, and you'll be a healthier business, because women enjoy golf as well. And their courses should be well under the 5k yard average. That's too long for them as well and they're not hitting close to the same clubs as LPGA players they watch on TV do.

Interesting.  I was a walk on at Bethpage Red a couple of weeks ago, and was paired with a couple up from Boca.  The wife was quite upset that the forward tees on the Red  are typically in the same box  as the white tees, just 8 to 10 yards in front, making the forward tees still well over 6000 yards.  What's the point of forward tees that net about 200 yards over 18 holes?

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WD I'm wondering if your issue isn't the same as mine growing up in CT - not enough public courses to support the population. 

 

The issue that Rookie is writing about is a huge, huge, beyond huge issue where I live.  I would say it's the primary issue for pace of play.  There are way, way too many guys who have the attitude that they need to play from one set of tees longer than they should and once that train starts.  It's the big in season issue for sure.  Also someone mentioned high end developers and difficult golf courses a page or so back, check -

 

My league is playing the classic one of those for our mid-season (it's why we got such a great price).  This baby is ridiculously difficult, not necessarily well designed as it winds its way through the empty luxury homes.  My "favorite" hole is the second a par 4 that ranges between 410 and 450.  99 percent of the people who play it are going to have a longish iron or hybrid in perhaps even a wood.  It's tree lined on both sides and the green is a little elevated table top thing that slopes off in all directions.  Throw 50 yards on the hole and you'd have a great par 5.  As it is you have a par 4 that plays more like a par 6 and backs the entire course up for the day from the start.  We'll be playing a scramble and I'm willing to bet right now that the hole averages 4.5 or worse because we are slotted A,B,C,D player on each team.

 

I also saw one in there about 25 year olds - as soon as I started having children, around that age, I was out of the playing golf business until they got old enough to play with me.  I think that's a hard age group regardless because there's not always the disposable income yet nor the time because they are starting a career and often a family.

 

I also saw the it's not a race - no it's not but there is little doubt that pace of play is hurting the game.  Lots of us cant' enjoy a 5 hour round because if we knew it was going to take 5 hours there were other things we would have done with that time.  There are plenty of times that I play golf to socialize but I'd much rather spend 3 1/2 on the course, 1/2 cleaning up and 1 in the grill room eating, enjoying a couple of drinkins and a cigar.

 

Both threads on this topic are great.  Frankly I'm becoming more and more convinced that RP has it right and it's just a cycle.  The biggest convincers for me are SCOR reintroducing the Hogan line and Bridgestone moving all in.  They wouldn't do these things if there wasn't money to be made in equipment even if it's not as much money as ten years ago.

 

Maybe it's just not as bad as we think and frankly if its okay economically I like the fact that with a few less people I can play faster - sorry but that's the God's honest truth.  I enjoy my friends, steak, scotch and cigar and want to have time for them, too.

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Interesting.  I was a walk on at Bethpage Red a couple of weeks ago, and was paired with a couple up from Boca.  The wife was quite upset that the forward tees on the Red  are typically in the same box  as the white tees, just 8 to 10 yards in front, making the forward tees still well over 6000 yards.  What's the point of forward tees that net about 200 yards over 18 holes?

 

 

This is extremely true of older courses.  There was no thought about forward tees when they were designed so there is often not a practical place to put them without a redesign.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Why are golf courses losing golfers? Because it's time consuming, courses are too long and they don't market to women. It's that simple.

 

It takes too long because courses are too long for the average amateur. Even at 6800 yards, that's too long for 95% if the golf population and hitting longer clubs into greens means less GIR and less fun plus more time to play. People want to hit the same irons into greens as pros do. You have to shorten courses for that to happen.

 

As far as not marketing to women, how many courses do you know that truly market to them? Have women's associations in conjunction with the men's? Have comparable lockerrooms? Have women's tees that aren't just thrown out in the fairway as an after thought? Bring the women to the course, and you'll be a healthier business, because women enjoy golf as well. And their courses should be well under the 5k yard average. That's too long for them as well and they're not hitting close to the same clubs as LPGA players they watch on TV do.

 

Except that female golfers actually grew as a segment by 200,000 in the first study I quoted to kick off this thread!   (I'm sorry I didn't post that stat.)

 

I still agree though that golf could and should cater more to women.   I know tons of ladies that "used to play" but don't anymore.  Our local ladies league is moribund.   Back in the way back when, "Ladies Day" meant ladies only, to give them a safe refuge from the hurry-up-doris-cigar-smoking men.  And it was packed, you couldn't get on if you wanted to.    Now it's pretty empty on ladies day and you can always get out on the opposite nine.

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Interesting.  I was a walk on at Bethpage Red a couple of weeks ago, and was paired with a couple up from Boca.  The wife was quite upset that the forward tees on the Red  are typically in the same box  as the white tees, just 8 to 10 yards in front, making the forward tees still well over 6000 yards.  What's the point of forward tees that net about 200 yards over 18 holes?

There is a links style course very close to me. Great staff, not necessarily in tip top shape but it does have the ladies tees ranging from 70-100+ yards ahead of the whites, on their own tee box. It's the only 18 hole course my wife will play and my moms favorite. Any of my golfing buddies that have a wife or girlfriend that play it ranks as their favorite course. Their so so drive ends up near ours, and when they hit it well it's past ours. It doesn't take much effort to carve out a tee box in a choice part of the fairway and give people an opportunity to have a great time.

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I Google mapped the course and visited its site. I have no clue where that is, is it really just out there in the middle of nothing? Based on the rates they charge it suggests that things are doing ok? 3 digit greens fees! Yikes. I hope it's getting action because to pump as much water on to that course as it needs to stay looking like that...they have about as much water as we do out here. You just hope it's being put to good use.

Coyote Springs is a phenomenal course, but it is as far off the beaten path as it is possible to get.   The only thing that keeps it open (and don't hold your breath for the rest of 2014) is the fact that Las Vegas golf is so exhorbitantly expensive and hard to get on that people will actually DRIVE from Vegas, play, and drive back to gamble at night.

 

Down in Southern Utah and Mesquite we have about a dozen such gems (Sand Hollow, Wolf Creek, Conestoga etc.)   We used to have another, Kokopelli.   It was built in the middle of polygamous country on a beautiful site.  Opened in 2010, closed in 2012.   No one came, no one built houses around it.

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Coyote Springs is a phenomenal course, but it is as far off the beaten path as it is possible to get.   The only thing that keeps it open (and don't hold your breath for the rest of 2014) is the fact that Las Vegas golf is so exhorbitantly expensive and hard to get on that people will actually DRIVE from Vegas, play, and drive back to gamble at night.

 

Down in Southern Utah and Mesquite we have about a dozen such gems (Sand Hollow, Wolf Creek, Conestoga etc.)   We used to have another, Kokopelli.   It was built in the middle of polygamous country on a beautiful site.  Opened in 2010, closed in 2012.   No one came, no one built houses around it.

 

There are some very nice courses in S. Utah/Mesquite, but I had an unfortunate experience playing at Green Spring in St. George.  It's was a very scenic course, but unfortunately the course marshal was an ass and the pro was a bigger ass (I hope you aren't from there; if so, sorry).  

 

The first nine was great; yes, a little slow but the 5th hole (I think) is a par 3 over a very deep canyon, and groups tend to get backed up there.  Understandable.  My wife and I played with a local and we all had a great time, even though the first nine took 2.5 hours; not our fault, we played as fast as the group in front of us.  The local was only going to play nine, but decided to stay with us since he was having fun.  On 10 we had the marshal on us to speed up play because the men's gangsome was about to tee off, and he wanted to make sure we were out of the way.  He hounded us on every hole, and needless to say, our games went south.  The local even apologized.  It was one of our worst experiences ever on a course.  Even though I was deliberately trying to play slow for the marshal, we still finished in 4.5 hours total.  We told the pro after the round that we wouldn't be back, and he said that he didn't expect us to, and that he had to appease his members.  We told another couple in the pro shop inquiring about playing that they shouldn't play there and why, in front of the pro!  They left.

 

I have found very few courses, other than resort courses, that treat visitors like their members.  With that kind of attitude, it's no wonder that courses can't get new members or keep some of their old members.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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There are some very nice courses in S. Utah/Mesquite, but I had an unfortunate experience playing at Green Spring in St. George.  It's was a very scenic course, but unfortunately the course marshal was an ass and the pro was a bigger ass (I hope you aren't from there; if so, sorry).  

 

The first nine was great; yes, a little slow but the 5th hole (I think) is a par 3 over a very deep canyon, and groups tend to get backed up there.  Understandable.  My wife and I played with a local and we all had a great time, even though the first nine took 2.5 hours; not our fault, we played as fast as the group in front of us.  The local was only going to play nine, but decided to stay with us since he was having fun.  On 10 we had the marshal on us to speed up play because the men's gangsome was about to tee off, and he wanted to make sure we were out of the way.  He hounded us on every hole, and needless to say, our games went south.  The local even apologized.  It was one of our worst experiences ever on a course.  Even though I was deliberately trying to play slow for the marshal, we still finished in 4.5 hours total.  We told the pro after the round that we wouldn't be back, and he said that he didn't expect us to, and that he had to appease his members.  We told another couple in the pro shop inquiring about playing that they shouldn't play there and why, in front of the pro!  They left.

 

I have found very few courses, other than resort courses, that treat visitors like their members.  With that kind of attitude, it's no wonder that courses can't get new members or keep some of their old members.

 

Your complaint is actually a sign of the unhealth of the game.  Green Springs is a semi-private.   It's public, nothing private at all, but built as a housing development track that has to stay public to sustain itself, as many CC's are on the verge of doing.   The locals who live around the course treat it as their CC and look at we pesky interlopers as varmints that are better off shooed away.   But the course couldn't survive without us.

 

Many other courses down there sit just one notch further to each side of this "empty pocket snootiness" divide.  Valderra wanted to become snooty exclusive and couldn't make it, now they BEG you to come.   Sunriver is a retirement course, couldn't survive private, now they welcome you.   Entrada started out public, got enough home owners to survive, went private.   Coral Canyon has always been snooty but never got enough members to go private.   Sand Hollow is the best of all those courses, still public, will go private if they get enough homeowners, but are a long way off.

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We're fine.

 

Same cycle that every industry goes through.

 

None are exempt-

 

Growth is always followed by maturation,  saturation, which in turns leads to contraction.

 

There are too many golf courses.

 

Period.

 

 

 

Actually, 400,000 is not enough.

 

We still got too many idiots in the game.

 

Have a nice week,

 

My Best,

Richard

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I saw a sign of hope this afternoon. I went to hit a bucket at a local muni that has a good range, 18 championship holes, and a 7 hole "exec" course. The clubhouse was full of ankle biters in shorts and cleats. The assistant pro told me they had just opened a "Kick Golf" course on the exec!

 

I couldn't be happier. It doesn't interfere with traditional play and it  brought in $48 off of eight Juniors while I was waiting to fill a bucket.  Who knows where it will go from there?

 

You know what? They kick it around much faster than we play. They cycled 7 holes in about 20 minutes.. They don't play honors or "ready kick", they run between shots.

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I Google mapped the course and visited its site. I have no clue where that is, is it really just out there in the middle of nothing? Based on the rates they charge it suggests that things are doing ok? 3 digit greens fees! Yikes. I hope it's getting action because to pump as much water on to that course as it needs to stay looking like that...they have about as much water as we do out here. You just hope it's being put to good use.

Quite literally in the middle of nowhere my friend. It's as deserted as it looks. If you take the way google maps takes you, one it is a lot longer drive then it says and two you don't see anything for miles.  You see nothing but desert and a indian refuge for a good half hour on one of the roads. Finally you start seeing green but it's just an area with a little more water. After another 20 minutes the course is there, and it's really a pretty site out there to see all that green in the middle of white sand.

 

They say 3 digit fees but if you look they offer buy one get one fees and were on golf now for awhile offering half priceish fees. I've played there three times and love the course, it's beautiful and a great challenging course, yet fair. I've never seen it busy, although I've gone on it during the week in summer and the spring. The one time I went there, I don't think there was more than a dozen golfers out there.

 

The story was the golf course was supposed to be a PGA village but they started it just before the market crash. It's sad to see what could have been but the course is worth every dollar I've spent there. I'd play that course over TPC Vegas just about every day. It's a sad reminder of the bust that was the exploding golf market.

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Let me ask you all something: Are public courses around you fairly priced? Around me, the county owns 6 courses but they are all in the 30 dollar range. It's not cheap, but not expensive and I consider it a bargain for some of the public courses I've played on. Golf now is great idea, but I've been on a few courses that the price vastly outweighs what the course offered. Maybe just griping, but wondered if you feel the public courses should be priced better where you live.

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I live in area glutted with public courses, so the course willing to take the least determines greens fees for all. Even the really good, new courses have to keep their fees low.

 

How low is low? I can buy a 10 round punch pass basically anywhere for $180 to $220.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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I love watching golf on TV and my son can watch it for hours. Maybe that's just us.

 

The stats are scary and I have noticed it's been easier to get a tee time this year. The real problem though is the price. I went during peak hours with my son on Sunday and it cost $97 because we splurged for a cart. I can't do that every weekend and this particular course was too hilly for him to walk it without his push cart.

 

I still think non-conforming equipment is the other big part of the solution (not the only other big part). Anything to make the game easier to get into. Then if you want a real handicap, play conforming stuff.

That certainly cuts down on how much u can play. 

Driver: Titleist 915 D2 9.5 with Diamana Whiteboard S flex

3 wood: Titleist 915F 15*, Whiteboard S Flex

Titleist 915H 18* and 24* with Whiteboard SFlex

Irons: Mizuno JPX EZ Forged 4-PW with S300's

Wedges: Mizuno MP T4 50*, 56* with DG Spinner

Putter:MannKrafted Long Slope or Odyssey #7 Versa Metal milled or Betti Tour Stock;

Ball: Bridgestone B330 or Titleist NXT

Bag: Titleist 'Murica colored carry bag or

MyGolfSpy Tour Bag

 

RH, Western KY

 

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Let me ask you all something: Are public courses around you fairly priced? Around me, the county owns 6 courses but they are all in the 30 dollar range. It's not cheap, but not expensive and I consider it a bargain for some of the public courses I've played on. Golf now is great idea, but I've been on a few courses that the price vastly outweighs what the course offered. Maybe just griping, but wondered if you feel the public courses should be priced better where you live.

There is a city owned course where I usually play that is $25 with a cart during the week and $32 on the weekend.  The semi private course which is pretty nice runs about $38 during the week and $45 on the weekends.  Not horrible by any means but we don't have many options.

Driver: Titleist 915 D2 9.5 with Diamana Whiteboard S flex

3 wood: Titleist 915F 15*, Whiteboard S Flex

Titleist 915H 18* and 24* with Whiteboard SFlex

Irons: Mizuno JPX EZ Forged 4-PW with S300's

Wedges: Mizuno MP T4 50*, 56* with DG Spinner

Putter:MannKrafted Long Slope or Odyssey #7 Versa Metal milled or Betti Tour Stock;

Ball: Bridgestone B330 or Titleist NXT

Bag: Titleist 'Murica colored carry bag or

MyGolfSpy Tour Bag

 

RH, Western KY

 

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Let me ask you all something: Are public courses around you fairly priced? Around me, the county owns 6 courses but they are all in the 30 dollar range. It's not cheap, but not expensive and I consider it a bargain for some of the public courses I've played on. Golf now is great idea, but I've been on a few courses that the price vastly outweighs what the course offered. Maybe just griping, but wondered if you feel the public courses should be priced better where you live.

 

Our public course options are VERY limited in the area.  I have 20 private/semi-private country club courses within a 10 mile drive of my house. I have to drive over an hour to get to the nearest public course.  In metro Atlanta there are probably only about 10 truly public courses, all of the rest are semi-private clubs, and there are a TON of those.  Survival though has dictated that most sell a limited number of tee times to the public, and that sheer volume of availability has driven prices to a point where we can play for rates between 29 - 249 at a wide variety of options.

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Let me ask you all something: Are public courses around you fairly priced? Around me, the county owns 6 courses but they are all in the 30 dollar range. It's not cheap, but not expensive and I consider it a bargain for some of the public courses I've played on. Golf now is great idea, but I've been on a few courses that the price vastly outweighs what the course offered. Maybe just griping, but wondered if you feel the public courses should be priced better where you live.

I live right smack in the middle of two major cities - Los Angeles and Long Beach.  So we have a ton of courses.  But Mark, unlike you they aren't so cheap.

 

City of LA - we have 7 full size 18 hole courses.  weekends with a golf cart will cost you just shy of $60. M-Th is $10 less, Fr is $6 less.  So you are looking at an almost $50+ round no matter what.  

 

County of LA - we have 17.  These are a little cheaper and can dip under the 50ish range with a cart.  Some a little more some a little less.  

 

(Keep in mind that what constitutes Los Angeles is a HUGE area, and there are some areas that have nothing, and some that have a bunch within minutes of each other)

 

Long Beach - has to my knowledge 4 full size 18 hole public courses.  (one of these is technically an LA County Course).  Those are more expensive as a non resident and can get into the high $50's with a cart.

 

So $50ish is the magic number out here for a City/County course.  With Golfzing and GolfNow you can save a little, but its not a huge savings.   Using those is purely for convenience of making a time on my phone and racking up points for free rounds.

 

The 3 private courses out here are 100% private.  They are full and have wait lists.  I've had the pleasure to play 2 of them and they are incredible.  

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Your complaint is actually a sign of the unhealth of the game.  Green Springs is a semi-private.   It's public, nothing private at all, but built as a housing development track that has to stay public to sustain itself, as many CC's are on the verge of doing.   The locals who live around the course treat it as their CC and look at we pesky interlopers as varmints that are better off shooed away.   But the course couldn't survive without us.

 

Many other courses down there sit just one notch further to each side of this "empty pocket snootiness" divide.  Valderra wanted to become snooty exclusive and couldn't make it, now they BEG you to come.   Sunriver is a retirement course, couldn't survive private, now they welcome you.   Entrada started out public, got enough home owners to survive, went private.   Coral Canyon has always been snooty but never got enough members to go private.   Sand Hollow is the best of all those courses, still public, will go private if they get enough homeowners, but are a long way off.

 

Thanks for the info on the courses Mark,

Makes sense that courses can't make it alone without the public.  I enjoyed playing several of the courses while there.  Stayed at Sunbrook, but played from Mesquite to Sky Mountain (loved that course).  Will probably go back in early spring since it is nicer there than here in the northwest.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Thanks for the info on the courses Mark,

Makes sense that courses can't make it alone without the public.  I enjoyed playing several of the courses while there.  Stayed at Sunbrook, but played from Mesquite to Sky Mountain (loved that course).  Will probably go back in early spring since it is nicer there than here in the northwest.

You've hit upon one of the best kept golfing secrets in the country.   Mesquite has seven or eight good, fun courses, but their Casino/hotels are ratty compared to Vegas so the gamblers don't like staying there.  St. George/Hurricane has about another dozen courses, almost all public.   This is a small small town by population, so the golfer to course ratio is very low compared to other areas, even with the tourists.

 

They are cheap by LA or big city standards and right now they are empty.  (Of course you have to tee off in the early am or at 5:00 or later or you will melt.)   You could pick the top four for a golfing vacation and have an experience rivaling anything in the country.

 

On the subject of Big City golf...because of the existing population base isn't going down and all the land is already used up and courses are limited, I don't imagine that you folks (LA, SF, Metro NY, Philly, ATL, Chi etc.)  will EVER experience much drop in prices or participation.   Your surplus demand is just so great that it would take a Zombie apocalypse before you could just "walk on" to Riviera like Bill Murray.   Pebble Beach will never have to lower its $495 green fees.   If you don't want to pay, Next!  

 

I used to live in the hoity toity Connecticut town of Westport, with one city owned course open only to residents.  You had to prove your residency with three forms of ID before you could buy member pass.   I'll bet they are still camping in the parking lot on Friday night for Saturday tee times and still only sending out foursomes.  There was just too much demand.  So the dense, establish metro areas are probably a bad barometer for the state of the game.  

 

I'd really be curious to see what's happening in Myrtle Beach, a town that lives solely off of tourist golfers.   It has hundreds of courses and is highly subject to demand.   Anybody been there recently?

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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You've hit upon one of the best kept golfing secrets in the country.   Mesquite has seven or eight good, fun courses, but their Casino/hotels are ratty compared to Vegas so the gamblers don't like staying there.  St. George/Hurricane has about another dozen courses, almost all public.   This is a small small town by population, so the golfer to course ratio is very low compared to other areas, even with the tourists.

 

They are cheap by LA or big city standards and right now they are empty.  (Of course you have to tee off in the early am or at 5:00 or later or you will melt.)   You could pick the top four for a golfing vacation and have an experience rivaling anything in the country.

 

On the subject of Big City golf...because of the existing population base isn't going down and all the land is already used up and courses are limited, I don't imagine that you folks (LA, SF, Metro NY, Philly, ATL, Chi etc.)  will EVER experience much drop in prices or participation.   Your surplus demand is just so great that it would take a Zombie apocalypse before you could just "walk on" to Riviera like Bill Murray.   Pebble Beach will never have to lower its $495 green fees.   If you don't want to pay, Next!  

 

I used to live in the hoity toity Connecticut town of Westport, with one city owned course open only to residents.  You had to prove your residency with three forms of ID before you could buy member pass.   I'll bet they are still camping in the parking lot on Friday night for Saturday tee times and still only sending out foursomes.  There was just too much demand.  So the dense, establish metro areas are probably a bad barometer for the state of the game.  

 

I'd really be curious to see what's happening in Myrtle Beach, a town that lives solely off of tourist golfers.   It has hundreds of courses and is highly subject to demand.   Anybody been there recently?

Yep I live 8 miles south of Dirty Myrtle. The golf business was slack during the winter due to weather but the spring wow. the seasons overlapped and it was hard to get tee times. Now if you talk to the course owners association they quote the figgure of being down 3% from last year which is a load of crap as far as I am concerned. Right now the tourists are out in force at least on the south strand and courses are getting a lot more than normal play for the summer.We also get more and more retirees moving here every year. The courses used to have the attitude of to heck with locals and retirees but their attitude had to change during this recent recession to survive. Most all of the courses on the Grand Strand belong to one or another golf management groups. There are very few "independant" courses left. Just this week the city of MB announced that the city owned course on the former airbase was being taken over by the owners of the TPC course. In a whole nutshell this helps keep operational costs down and gives a chance to offer competitive rates. I know we have some great local rates this time of year here. IMHO golf is thriving again here at the beach

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

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That certainly cuts down on how much u can play. 

 

 

This comment was to WD's post on the $97 that he laid out on a Sunday afternoon for he and his son.  That's what I grew up with in the Northeast (close to where WD lives.)  I moved to Indians for Seminary (close to where kygolfer lives) and was shocked to find quality public golf for around $20 with a cart.  That was 25 years ago so I'm sure prices are a bit higher but still reasonable.  Further still many midwestern courses were family friendly and actually encouraged bringing your children to the course.  My boys and I played 9 holes together every Sunday afternoon because I could take them with for a few dollars.  I didn't mind if they dropped a few holes to hunt balls, turtles or fish because it was so cheap.  They grew to love the game and playing with their Dad.  We continue to love to play together today even though they are adults.  The first thing they'll ask when they come to town is if I have a set of clubs for them and if not they bring their own. 

 

Florida is somewhere inbetween those two realities.

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This comment was to WD's post on the $97 that he laid out on a Sunday afternoon for he and his son.  That's what I grew up with in the Northeast (close to where WD lives.)  I moved to Indians for Seminary (close to where kygolfer lives) and was shocked to find quality public golf for around $20 with a cart.  That was 25 years ago so I'm sure prices are a bit higher but still reasonable.  Further still many midwestern courses were family friendly and actually encouraged bringing your children to the course.  My boys and I played 9 holes together every Sunday afternoon because I could take them with for a few dollars.  I didn't mind if they dropped a few holes to hunt balls, turtles or fish because it was so cheap.  They grew to love the game and playing with their Dad.  We continue to love to play together today even though they are adults.  The first thing they'll ask when they come to town is if I have a set of clubs for them and if not they bring their own. 

 

Florida is somewhere inbetween those two realities.

Yeah Rev,  I can walk 18 at the city owned course literally 1 mile from my house for $15 during the week and $18 on weekends.  It's no Augusta but they keep it well maintained.  Very good value in my opinion.  I can join for the year for $450 which could pay itself off quickly if I were there all the time.  Sadly,  I played my 9th round of the year today.  My best 9 of the year on the front,  shot 39.  Got the hooks on the back,  shot 50.  Good example of why I love and hate this game.

Driver: Titleist 915 D2 9.5 with Diamana Whiteboard S flex

3 wood: Titleist 915F 15*, Whiteboard S Flex

Titleist 915H 18* and 24* with Whiteboard SFlex

Irons: Mizuno JPX EZ Forged 4-PW with S300's

Wedges: Mizuno MP T4 50*, 56* with DG Spinner

Putter:MannKrafted Long Slope or Odyssey #7 Versa Metal milled or Betti Tour Stock;

Ball: Bridgestone B330 or Titleist NXT

Bag: Titleist 'Murica colored carry bag or

MyGolfSpy Tour Bag

 

RH, Western KY

 

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Your complaint is actually a sign of the unhealth of the game.  Green Springs is a semi-private.   It's public, nothing private at all, but built as a housing development track that has to stay public to sustain itself, as many CC's are on the verge of doing.   The locals who live around the course treat it as their CC and look at we pesky interlopers as varmints that are better off shooed away.   But the course couldn't survive without us.

 

Many other courses down there sit just one notch further to each side of this "empty pocket snootiness" divide.  Valderra wanted to become snooty exclusive and couldn't make it, now they BEG you to come.   Sunriver is a retirement course, couldn't survive private, now they welcome you.   Entrada started out public, got enough home owners to survive, went private.   Coral Canyon has always been snooty but never got enough members to go private.   Sand Hollow is the best of all those courses, still public, will go private if they get enough homeowners, but are a long way off.

That last paragraph is what happened in the Pinehurst area back 20 or so years ago. Not in Pinehurst itself but the surrounding area. There were several good courses that sprang up with home developements that were going to be exclusive retirement private courses. They developed the courses first with the intent of building houses around them. It did not work. The developers ended up having to go the lower tier golf package rounds to simply survive. This is the era that I had talked about in previous posts when I said we were driving down from Charlotte on weekends for some fantastic rates and golf. I have not played in the area for some time now so I dont know if some of those courses survived or not.

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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  • 3 weeks later...

The course I play can be bought for less than the cost of the cement cart paths (i'm guessing). Price is $800,000. It was rated in the top 5  public courses in the state in 05 I think. I have given some suggestions, but they were not interested...........Sad 

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The course I play can be bought for less than the cost of the cement cart paths (i'm guessing). Price is $800,000. It was rated in the top 5  public courses in the state in 05 I think. I have given some suggestions, but they were not interested...........Sad 

 

$800,000 is probably less than 1 year's maintenance budget.   Where is this course?

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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