Is Augusta hurting golf for potential new players?

[Blade]

So I made a post about this in another thread that was kind of off topic.

I mentioned reasons why I didn't play golf until I was 39. No interest in it. Thought it was for stuffy old snobby men and didn't view it as fun. Now that I play and love it, I wish I had started playing long before then.

The biggest reason for me was the perception, and I made the comment that Augusta for example exudes exclusivity. "We're better than you. You can't be a part of this even if you have money unlesss we invite you."

What a pretentious snobbish culture. How does that attract anyone new? It doesn't. It's a huge "put off". That pretentious, "We're in and you're out." attitude is the nature of golf as viewed as an outsider to the game.

Once you start to play, you realize that's not the case in general. But I can tell you from experience since I didn't grow up playing, that is a. prevelant perception of non-players.

So how can that perception change when the Golf Club at the center of attention has their noses in the air to outsiders. The most recognized event and club has only recently aquiessed to "allow" a few women the "honor" of joining.

What does Augusta's and other lesser known clubs' snobbery tell the general public not golfing yet? "Stay out! You're not welcome!" And yet, at the same time, "Where are the new players? How can we grow the game?". 

[RookieBlue7]

Augusta isn't ran by the PGA and it's not the PGA of America's problem.  Neither is the USGA running Augusta.  Life isn't fair, those with money have exclusivity.  If people think that Augusta exudes snobby, that's their right.  It's also Augusta's right to do it, and they're no different than any other private club out there.  I mean you can't go walk in the Audibon society without being a member, gun clubs have membership requirements, hell, you can't even go in Costco without a membership.  Are those problems to their respective ventures as well?  Can't blame it on Augusta without including Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Aronimink, Balustrol, Hazeltine National, Medinah, Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Olympic Club, etc.  They're all exclusive as well.  And some would even argue that The Open Championship is the top tournament in the world, as it's played at or near the home of golf.

Not to mention, why would these exclusive and pricey to maintain venues that are kept perfect even want to let Chopper and his hacker friends come chop up the perfectly manicured turf?

[Blade]

You completely missed the point. It had nothing to do with whether they have the right.  

[Jondagcl]

I had an exceedingly long response ready to go here Blade and I deleted it and condensed it into a few sentences.

 

I think Augusta is everything that is right and everything that is wrong with golf. It gets people excited about it (how many non-golfer would be interesting to know) and at the same time highlights a reason why many don't like the sport.

 

It is a private club, and they do have the ability to exclude people. I also own my own home and have the right to paint it using various colors of krylon spray paint - that doesn't mean it's a good idea for my neighborhood.

 

I personally could give two flips about Augusta as professional golf accounts for single digit percent of my sports watching. I also have very little patience for "traditional" things like this. Especially "traditional" things that exclude others. That type of history is not something to be proud of, that's something to overcome.

[RoverRick]

I am now a member of a members only country club.  It was "semi-private" when I first joined, and probably since 1927 when it was built.  We recently voted to become members only and increased the fees and spent a few million dollars on new greens and a new club house.  We are in the third year of the project.

 

We became "members only" for one reason.  The weekend golfers do not generate money consistent money.  We also have the nicest newest, and most expensive restaurant in town, and if you want to eat there and don't play golf, you can become a social member.  They are reservation only, and while the fancy part has been open since Mid April, I have not eaten there yet, mainly a timing deal.  But I eat in the other two restaurant in the club house.  They also have a Sunday Brunch at is quite popular.

 

We do not exclude anyone, that I know of. from membership.  But we are paying our money every month to have a very very nice place.  Why should we allow everyone to come out for a once deal, if they don't want to join.

 

I have been a member there since 1997.  We were 250 members, maybe.  We are now, including "Social Memberships" which allows access to the new pool a little more than 500 members.  I will also add that there is food and drink service at the pool, although, I have yet to go to the pool either.  It has been open since May.  But I have golfed, about 4-6 days a week.

[Jondagcl]

RoverRick I can't speak for Blade who started the thread, but I don't think his beef is with clubs being private per se. I think it's the extreme end of private that he's talking about. That's the vibe I got.

 

Edit maybe it is as I just noticed the "and other exclusive clubs".

[revkev]

Interestingly the USGA has moved towards more public courses for it's showcase event and the PGA TOur holds many of it's events on courses that anyone can play.

 

Do that many non golfers really pay attention to what happens at the Masters or any other event beyond who won because they hear it on the news?

 

I don't think it has much impact either way.

[RookieBlue7]

Nope, didn't miss the point.  It's a post about an exclusive club excluding people.  They continue to hold the tournament and it continues being the most watched tournament in the world annually, and the margin isn't close.  People tune it and people love it.  People fawn over going. If you get the chance to go, you will not ever find a venue that is more reasonably priced for patrons anywhere on the planet.  Not a single one.  To say Augusta is part of the reason for the decline of golf and to exclude all the other exclusive private clubs is a narrow minded view if you're going to say privacy is the problem.  Like I said, it's like demeaning Costco for being members only.  

They have more money in their irrigation system than most courses have in the entire course.  Why would they want to open it up?  Why should they feel compelled to?  Their membership pays for everything without issue.  The course is pristine every year, season long.  Why would they want to change that?  To appease people that want to come hack it up there?  No thanks, that creates negative impact on the course as well as increases costs for them.  

Want to know what hurts golf more than Augusta?  Slow play, 5 hour rounds, increasing costs, closing courses creating less tee times for golfers wanting to play, increasing round times.  Not because a private club chooses to be private.  People are impatient and it's a faster paced society these days.  People don't want to go spend half a day at the golf course and pay high prices when they can take their family to an amusement park for the same cost, be entertained all day, and be in a fast paced environment.  That's just one example too.

[Blade]

Nope, totally missed the point. It's not about how much a place costs to run or whether they have the right.  Its about the perception that exclusive culture portrays about the sport to people who don't love it or play it. It doesn't attract potential new players to the game.  It repels them. Slow play doesn't bother potential new players one bit. It bugs current players. Sorry, I should have typed slower I guess. 

[revkev]

Nope, totally missed the point. It's not about how much a place costs to run or whether they have the right.  Its about the perception that exclusive culture portrays about the sport to people who don't love it or play it. It doesn't attract potential new players to the game.  It repels them. Slow play doesn't bother potential new players one bit. It bugs current players. Sorry, I should have typed slower I guess.

 

I appreciate the point but my question remains. Do non-golfers or more specifically non-golfers who might potentially become golfers actually watch the masters or even pay attention to it? I don't think they do.

 

Did you before you started playing golf?

 

I still don't think it's a factor either way.

[RoverRick]

I got his point, but from the other side, not a big fence, we ain't Augusta National, there is a reason for the exclusive or members only.

 

I think he may have had a more valid point before Augusta National did the Drive Pitch and Putt deal.  They are now opening their doors for this.  Our club allows the Boys and Girls Club to come out and get instruction and play on the range and even on a few holes.  I used to run that program but thankfully someone else does not.  There was also a week long kids golf camp this summer. 

 

Although I b!tch about it, but we have many tournaments that are member guest where they encourage you to bring in new people.  I don't like it because everyone I know is already a member, since I do not actually work in this area, just live here.

[RookieBlue7]

Nope, totally missed the point. It's not about how much a place costs to run or whether they have the right.  Its about the perception that exclusive culture portrays about the sport to people who don't love it or play it. It doesn't attract potential new players to the game.  It repels them. Slow play doesn't bother potential new players one bit. It bugs current players. Sorry, I should have typed slower I guess. 

So anywhere that appears to have an exclusive culture to you, as an individual, doesn't attract new persons to that venture.  To be honest with you, Augusta doesn't care about if it makes you feel excluded.  Their job isn't to attract new golfers, old golfers, non-golfers, etc.  Who cares if one course doesn't attract new players?  That's not the purpose of Augusta.  How about placing the blame on the governing body for golf?  The USGA and the R&A?  Why aren't we condemning them for actively trying to promote the game?  Because they're not on TV and exclusive (actually they are, because the USGA has memberships as well).  

 

I'll go back to my original point.  If it's about Augusta exuding an aire of exclusitivity, then it's about everywhere that exudes an aire of exclusitivity.  Both in golf and out of golf.  Augusta isn't the only private club out there.  They're the most heavily televised.  One seeks out a golf course to start playing, arrive, and sign in.  They're told the course is members only, so that person decides to never play golf again as a result.  Is that Augusta's fault even though it's a different course?  Why do people have an entitlement mentality that they should be able to do everything they want?  Life isn't fair, and if someone has unrealistic expectations they're going to live disappointed.  

[RookieBlue7]

BTW, there is a way to get to play Augusta.  You volunteer to become a caddie there, once you get a caddie job, you have to volunteer a set # of rounds or hours (I forget the exact manner it works now).  Once you hit that number, you're able to play in the end of the year caddie day that is free to all caddies that have met the requirement.

[Blade]

No I didn't say I was disappointed.  I said the perception of exclusivity doesn't attract new players and used Augusta as an example because of its notoriety.  I guess I'm still not typing slow enough.  Haha!

 

From the outside, golf does not give the appearance of welcoming new players. Like I said, once a person starts to play, that perception changes. This was meant as a view from the outside looking in. Not what current players think.

[RookieBlue7]

This is a really good article about the issues golf faces (though I had to laugh at the TMag struggling to time releases part).

 

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a-game-of-golf-not-for-many-millennials-1406159228?mobile=y

 

We're going to see more and more executive courses I fear. They take less land and they take far less time to play and are cheaper. Instant gratification type stuff.

[RookieBlue7]

Found a good study in private vs semi private vs public too

 

http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/Private_Club_Report_final.pdf

[Jondagcl]

I think I hear what both of you guys are saying. Blade - the course/event that is considered the pinnacle of golf is also an infamously exclusive place. (Reasonably priced pimento cheese sandwiches aside) and Rookie it's a private course who's finances would make any other course jealous so it's obviously working.

 

I think exploring what Rev said in more detail would be good. Seeing how the PGA and USGA are highlighting more public courses.

 

Do I think Augusta is keeping people out of trying golf? Probably not. Is it helping? Probably not.

[Blade]

Do I think Augusta is keeping people out of trying golf? Probably not. Is it helping? Probably not.

I agree. I don't even mean Augusta itself is literally the problem.  I was using that as an example to make a point.  Golf isn't welcoming to new players that don't already have some connection to it.

[revkev]

I agree. I don't even mean Augusta itself is literally the problem.  I was using that as an example to make a point.  Golf isn't welcoming to new players that don't already have some connection to it.

Now that I agree with.

[silver & black]

This a very good topic. I agree with both Blade and Rookie, and the others that commented, as well.

 

I started playing at 40. I'm almost 55 now. I can honestly say that perception had absolutely nothing to do with me not playing in my younger days, at least, not in the way that Blade meant. I was heavily involved in martial arts and tennis, well into my 20's. I always thought golf was silly...lol. I mean, who in their right mind wants to whack a little white ball hundreds of yards out into acres of grass and then walk after it? How is that even remotely fun? What could be so hard about tapping a ball into a hole?

 

It wasn't until I worked with a few avid golfers that I decided to give it a try..... with much prodding from one particular co worker/buddy. Well, lets just say that I saw the light that day. I had so much fun hanging with these guys and "trying" to hit the damned ball!...lol. I've been hooked ever since.

 

I think that unless you are brought up with/around the game, you probably don't/won't have much interest in it. It isn't an exciting game to watch on TV. Most young people are going to turn the channel. It isn't cheap to play compared to other sports/games. Tennis courts and ball fields are spread out through most cities where they are more accessible for people to get to. Golf courses tend to be out in the sticks or on the outskirts of cities, making access a little harder. 

 

I honestly don't think 5 hour rounds are the problem. That only seems to be a problem for the more accomplished player that wants to keep his round moving. I hate waiting to play, too. Having said that, I don't mind being at the course for half a day. When I play, I plan on it. I realize not everyone is like me...lol.I think golf is just going through a cyclical period right now. it will never go away or die out. It's just like everything else; it has boom and bust cycles. I do think Tiger is/was the reason so many younger people, and people of all ages decided to try the game. Until the next phenom comes along and ignites an interest in the game that the masses will pay attention to, interest in the game is going to wane a bit.

 

The problem I do see is the reluctance of the established players (us older people) to adapt and change with the times. The youth of today have no use for whispering and being quiet. They have no use for, or interest in the "tradition" of the game. They have no use for wearing what they perceive to be "good clothes" to play a game in the grass, sand and dirt. They want to have fun. By and large, golf discourages the youth of today from playing the game because of it's antiquated ways. Face it, they are the future, and like it or not, golf is going to have to accommodate them at some time. If not, golf will become extremely exclusive, as there won't be nearly as many players or places to play.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Great topic -- I have no problems with private courses and I strictly follow the Groucho Marx edict when it comes to anything exclusive:  I wouldn't want to join any club that would have someone like me as a member!

 

Had an interesting conversation with a friend a while back - he wondered aloud if a public course should have a handicap limit in order to play there -- for instance, if you're a 15 or higher, don't bother.  That's just another form of exclusivity, and golf is exclusive enough.  Clear expectations about pace of play, polite but ever-present rangers and even rewards for sub-4:10 rounds (one course up here offers that on early season Sundays) does wonders for pace of play.

 

If we accept the premise that golf isn't growing for the following reasons: too hard, takes too long, too expensive, no fun - then we can address the problem from the back end: make it fun and then the other stuff will work itself out.  That's been the entire goal of the Hack To Jack program here in Minneapolis.  

 

Hack to Jack is far and away the most popular/voted for item in Taylormade's Hack Golf project (click here to read and - most importantly - VOTE!) and it's done the one thing it has set out to do - make golf more fun. And with any luck, my kid will be taking up the sport!

[revkev]

In the end fun is the operative word, people will pay for fun. I'm exhausted, I had a tough morning of work where I had to be on my game for five hours. One little slip, one stupid thing at the wrong time and we could loose members or worse from my perceptive endanger someone's salvation. I should be taking a nap but I've got my shorts on and I'm waiting for my buddy to pick me up to go outside in 100 plus heat index weather with a chance at a thunderstorm because I'm going to play golf and for me golf is fun.

 

People will do silly things for fun.

[L.I. Rich]

 

"It wasn't until I worked with a few avid golfers that I decided to give it a try..... with much prodding from one particular co worker/buddy. Well, lets just say that I saw the light that day. I had so much fun hanging with these guys and "trying" to hit the damned ball!...lol. I've been hooked ever since."

 

This is the key phrase I think. Golf is exclusive because of its rules, etiquette, and traditions. Unless someone recruits a non-golfer to play, it's pretty rare for a newbie to just purchase clubs, shoes, gloves, balls, and book a tee time. I can't think of anyone I know who golfs who isn't vocal in their enthusiasm for the game. But I won't evangelize golf to someone I wouldn't want to play with. I guess if you're a non-golfer who knows golfers, and they haven't been trying to get you on the course, they just don't like you that much.

[Blade]

  I guess if you're a non-golfer who knows golfers, and they haven't been trying to get you on the course, they just don't like you that much.

Now THAT'S funny, but also true. I don't think I would have tried it without someone dragging me the first time or two.  What I saw on TV sure didn't generate interest in it for me. 

[mnfats95]

The people I have helped start playing the game have all had the same issue. They are very self conscious about their lack of skill.

 

I start by taking them to the range and I don't hit balls, I just help them during that time to get the basics down.

 

When it comes time to go to the course and try to actually play, they avoid it for as long as they can.

 

There is always something that they have to do or a reason why they can't go.

 

After I finally get them out to the course a few times they are hooked and I have a 100% success rate in getting them to be once a week minimum players.

 

Some things I have noticed about this process over the past 15 years.

 

Of the people I golf with regularly, all of them started young (parents or school team) or had someone coax them into the sport. I can't think of one that picked it up on a whim. I am sure that you are out there, I just haven't met you yet.

 

When the people I've helped get into the game start I find it much easier to ease them into things by going to the range during off times when it is the slowest.

 

During the first few rounds on the course I find it very important to either have them out there with only me or with other people of their skill level and at times when the course is as empty as possible. I have even taken time off work to get to the course on a Monday morning or whenever the local places are as dead as possible.

 

The people I've helped get into the sport seem to care about not embarrassing themselves above all else.

 

No one likes to stand among others who are able to consistently hit the ball down the range and whiff or send one down the range line.

 

I feel like this is one of the biggest things to overcome for golf in order to attract non children to the game. Children don't care about things like this because most of them don't have an ego. Once they develop one they have learned the basics and it's not an issue.

 

I know that not everyone has the time/patience/will to deal with beginners, but taking the time to make constructive suggestions or encouraging remarks when you get stuck behind a slow group of players who are learning might go a long way into making them feel like it's OK to be there and that not everyone is upset about their lack of skill.

 

It doesn't matter if it's a private course or a public one, take a step back and remember that you were a beginner at one time as well and even though it might have been 40 years ago, I'm sure you felt uncomfortable at some point because you kept topping the ball down the fairway or 4 putting every green.

[revkev]

The people I have helped start playing the game have all had the same issue. They are very self conscious about their lack of skill.

 

I start by taking them to the range and I don't hit balls, I just help them during that time to get the basics down.

 

When it comes time to go to the course and try to actually play, they avoid it for as long as they can.

 

There is always something that they have to do or a reason why they can't go.

 

After I finally get them out to the course a few times they are hooked and I have a 100% success rate in getting them to be once a week minimum players.

 

Some things I have noticed about this process over the past 15 years.

 

Of the people I golf with regularly, all of them started young (parents or school team) or had someone coax them into the sport. I can't think of one that picked it up on a whim. I am sure that you are out there, I just haven't met you yet.

 

When the people I've helped get into the game start I find it much easier to ease them into things by going to the range during off times when it is the slowest.

 

During the first few rounds on the course I find it very important to either have them out there with only me or with other people of their skill level and at times when the course is as empty as possible. I have even taken time off work to get to the course on a Monday morning or whenever the local places are as dead as possible.

 

The people I've helped get into the sport seem to care about not embarrassing themselves above all else.

 

No one likes to stand among others who are able to consistently hit the ball down the range and whiff or send one down the range line.

 

I feel like this is one of the biggest things to overcome for golf in order to attract non children to the game. Children don't care about things like this because most of them don't have an ego. Once they develop one they have learned the basics and it's not an issue.

 

I know that not everyone has the time/patience/will to deal with beginners, but taking the time to make constructive suggestions or encouraging remarks when you get stuck behind a slow group of players who are learning might go a long way into making them feel like it's OK to be there and that not everyone is upset about their lack of skill.

 

It doesn't matter if it's a private course or a public one, take a step back and remember that you were a beginner at one time as well and even though it might have been 40 years ago, I'm sure you felt uncomfortable at some point because you kept topping the ball down the fairway or 4 putting every green.

Good advice

[RookieBlue7]

I'll tell you another thing that's hurting the game and driving people away, IMO.  The courses that are being built are too demanding for the beginner.  They're stretching courses too long for the average amateur.  Most courses that open with standard tees have the middle ground (in a tiered system, we'll say there's 5 sets of tees with the middle ground being white tees or the 3rd tee box) too far away.  They're setting courses up with a 6200-6500 yard average and 5500 being about average for forward tees.  That's too long for lots of amateurs.  5000 is a good number for forward tees, maybe even a little shorter than that.  5500-6000 would be a good number for middle ground tees.  Beginners want to be hitting the same clubs they see guys on TV hitting (even though it's not really realistic to expect the same distances out of the clubs, lots do).  The only way that's going to happen is to move the tees forward.  That would, IMO, bring some fun back to the beginner as well. 

Another problem I see with the tees themselves is what people refer to them as.  I've done it as well in the past, but the forward tees are, by most, called womens or ladies tees.  That makes men not want to hit from them.  Sorry, but that's EXACTLY where the beginner should start from. Aside from the 1 of 100 anomally, the average beginner isn't getting close to having fun playing from the "mens" tees.  They're hitting the ball all over the course and the distance is too much, and it saps the fun out of it for them.  Then lots don't come back because they don't see the allure of losing ball after ball and carding a snowman on every par 4.  We need to get back to healthy distances for amateurs and let the pros and longer hitters stick to the 7000 yard plus courses (and I hit the ball pretty long for an amateur.  Distance isn't a problem for me. But as a whole, it's hurting the game, especially for the beginner).

[BK in TEXAS]

 Aside from the 1 of 100 anomally, the average beginner isn't getting close to having fun playing from the "mens" tees.  They're hitting the ball all over the course and the distance is too much, and it saps the fun out of it for them.  Then lots don't come back because they don't see the allure of losing ball after ball and carding a snowman on every par 4. 

Yup...I see waaaaaay to many people playing too far back for no other reason than that's where they think they are "supposed" to play from.

[mnfats95]

I agree on the tees, but again, dealing with the reality of the situation involves ego. I often tell the people I play with to move up to shorter tees but they refuse to do it unless I do as well. For them I think they feel like they are cheating or they want to be able to compare scores without someone saying "but you played from the forward tees and I didn't".

 

When I move forward the course changes considerably for me. I find it's tougher because I can't hit driver in a lot of instances without blowing through doglegs and all the yardages are different of course from what I'm used to.

 

I have heard some mention it here before, but I think also that they need to let the fairways grow out a bit more to help the people who are starting out. I don't mind a course when the fairways are a quarter inch longer than what I would consider normal. It makes it so much easier to hit the ball and I don't find that my spin is affected in anyway on approach shots.

 

It's very appealing to see tightly mowed fairways and fringes on a course, but it makes it so much harder for beginners and anyone who doesn't hit down on the ball to hit good shots. On some courses I've told my playing partners to play it up in the fairway so that they can get the ball perched a little bit and hit a decent shot instead of thinning it around the course all day.

 

It brings up another good point I forgot in my previous post. When I start bringing someone into the game I tell them to not even worry about playing it down until they can make it through 18 holes with no more than 5 topped shots. I find waiving this rule helps them build confidence much more quickly as they don't have to worry about horrible lies in the rough where they spend most of their time anyway when starting out.

[RookieBlue7]

Yup...I see waaaaaay to many people playing too far back for no other reason than that's where they think they are "supposed" to play from.

And I don't know how to rectify that, honestly.  A course could have a marshall or someone knowledgable about the players that recommends a set of tees, but then you have golfers that feel that the course or marshall or whomever makes the recommendation is being mean to them or making fun of their abilities or something.  There's no delicate way to tell people to tee it forward.  Maybe they should quit building tee boxes that far back to rectify it.  I really don't know how you can get around the issue of hurting people's feelings or egos.