Sandbagged?

[sp0rtsfan86]

Got a few things here I'd offer:

 My home course has the club championship every July.  It's a one day stroke qualifier (used to be two day, but budget cuts...) and then top 7 plus last years champion into a 8 man bracket match play.

2 years ago I was in the C flight and shot an 88, nothing special but a solid all around. FYI C flight is course handicap of 17 or greater (roughly 15.5 handicap IIRC)...  I was in third place... someone shot an 85 and next day couldn't hit a ball straight. That's normal.....but one guy shot a 78. 6 over on the tournament day, and he was a registered 20 handicap.

Anyone want odds on that? He claimed he had back surgery a few weeks before that, and was scratch up until his back went 5 years ago, and the surgery helped. I might have looked up his handicap to see his scores and the last 2-3 were in the mid 80's (forgot the dates, but know at least 1 maybe 2 were in between the last reporting date and the tournament) and the rest in the 100's from weeks before. --- side note: he beat me after 23 holes of match play, including 5 playoff holes the next day after beating a guy 5 and 4. 

 

Same year: the top 3 B flighters shot better than the entire A flight. Something around 80 would get you in the A flight match play, while in B flight it was 82. It was ludicrous. From the same tees to boot. And the funny part about it: the 5 seed in B one the thing.

 

Now I play in a skins game Sundays as well as a blind draw game thursdays. Basically, it's a skins net/gross game with greenies. Lots of times, that works out better, because a 16 may get a 4 on a hole, but a really good player can get a 3 and neutralize it. Haven't seen too much abuse, or annoyances with a guy sandbagging. May get you a stroke but doesn't really matter because on the holes they need the strokes, just about everyone gets one.

[Jmikecpa]

The tournament that I was supposed to play yesterday and had to bail on ended up being a net event with no verified handicap.  The guy that won the C flight I believe stated a 20 handicap on his entrance form and shot a gross 81 for a net 61.  Damn glad I was not playing in that one!  I will post the final score sheets for the tournaments once I get my hands on it.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

A 20 handicap shoots a By-The-Rules-In-A-Tournament-Gross-81? 

 

 

 

ahhhhh... No.

[sp0rtsfan86]

A 20 handicap shoots a By-The-Rules-In-A-Tournament-Gross-81? 

 

 

 

ahhhhh... No.

MY guy shot a 78. Haha. It's pretty much the same sort of no that can't happen.

[Jmikecpa]

A 20 handicap shoots a By-The-Rules-In-A-Tournament-Gross-81? 

 

 

 

ahhhhh... No.

I guessed the statistical odds of that happening were the same as hitting the lottery, getting hit by lightning and marrying a supermodel.....all in the same day.

 

My stat guy at work told me the odds were better for my scenario than a 20 posting a legit 81.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

I guessed the statistical odds of that happening were the same as hitting the lottery, getting hit by lightning and marrying a supermodel.....all in the same day.

 

My stat guy at work told me the odds were better for my scenario than a 20 posting a legit 81.

 

And this nonsense happens EVERY DAY. And nothing ever gets changed....  Exhausting. 

[sp0rtsfan86]

And this nonsense happens EVERY DAY. And nothing ever gets changed....  Exhausting. 

How can you change it when it's the person who has to post it?

 

Does it have to be verified by someone else? What else can you do?

[revkev]

How can you change it when it's the person who has to post it?

 

Does it have to be verified by someone else? What else can you do?

Every club is supposed to have a handicap committee. The USGA in it's desire to have more golfers obtain handicaps ( a good thing) has erred in assuming they are all honorable (a Nieves thing.). The posters take advantage of that. I well remember my pro or handicap committee chair or both grabbing cards at the end of the day and posting scores themselves when I belonged to a private club.

 

The biggest financial haul I ever had playing golf was in a Calcutta at that same club. It was a blind draw, 4 players, ABCD, AB from the tips, CD from the whites. I was an A player and when I saw my C player, I bet the far. If he was a 17, I was Tiger Woods. 3/4 handicap three people broke 80 in the tournament. They had just punched the greens because the tournament was rained out and the make up was after the contracted date. It was a brutal day, only three people broke 80. I shot 78, another A 79 and my "C" a 76 getting 12 strokes. We won by 8. I pocketed over a grand plus the price money, plus a skin, in rural Indiana in 1997. It was sick. They threw the guy out of our club, as well they should have.

[Jmikecpa]

I was able to get in a quick nine at the course where the tournament I mentioned above was played and without a doubt there is no shot the score was legit. Not a long track and some reachable par 5's, but the greens are brutal. The only birdie I had all day was a six footer that broke three feet. For the record I am scratch and shot even for nine and that is what will get posted.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

How can you change it when it's the person who has to post it?

 

Does it have to be verified by someone else? What else can you do?

I am nowhere near smart enough to have the answers to this problem.  I might suggest weighting tournament scores a bit heavier in the handicap formula. Especially scores that are very low in a tournament.

 

Also, if people got banned from tournaments for extended periods of time, or had handicaps adjusted severely for "cheating" there might be a bit less of it.

 

I have no idea how the enforcement would work...  most likely not possible.

 

Anecdotal story...  a few years back, I used to play in a nine hole league after work that had handicaps that were league only and adjusted each week.  After the first 2 weeks, I had shot 50 and 48. ( I was in the midst of a swing change, and was spraying it EVERYWHERE). My 9 hole hdcp was 12. I played a guy in week three who was a 2. I was getting 10 shots in 9 holes. On the first hole, I stepped up, and piped it 310 down the center. I turned, looked him in the eye, and apologized before we left the tee.  I told him that I was probably going to shoot around par...  I was 2 under. I beat him by 6 shots gross, 16 shots net. He was pretty upset, but, what was I supposed to do??  Needless to say, I got adjusted the next week, and I was completely fine with it. (My GHIN at that time was 6.4).

[Jmikecpa]

How can you change it when it's the person who has to post it?

 

Does it have to be verified by someone else? What else can you do?

This is where a handicap committee at club is supposed to do its job and police the handicaps.  As I had mentioned earlier the committee at my former club was headed by the club pro and was non-existent.  I have played at other clubs that this was strictly enforced and if you were even suspected of sandbagging you were just not allowed to play in events until your real index was established.  It also goes the other way where I have played with guys that are a 1 or a 2 in the GHIN system and could not break 80 on the best of days which is embarrassing but only helps those playing against him.  We had a member at our club that was told he should get vanity plates for his car to match his handicap and his response was how do I get 1.2 on my license plate.....obviously missed the joke.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Seems like theres a catch 22 damned if you damned if you don't problem with handicaps. Sure you want everyone to have them, so you let things slide, but the guys that are honest and play a ton get frustrated and don't play in tournaments because of sandbagging and the handicap committee sitting on it. I just don't see a great solution, unless they start upping prizes and hunting bogus handicaps to get the guys that are frustrated back in the tournaments.

[Jmikecpa]

Seems like theres a catch 22 damned if you damned if you don't problem with handicaps. Sure you want everyone to have them, so you let things slide, but the guys that are honest and play a ton get frustrated and don't play in tournaments because of sandbagging and the handicap committee sitting on it. I just don't see a great solution, unless they start upping prizes and hunting bogus handicaps to get the guys that are frustrated back in the tournaments.

My personal solution is that I only play gross events, but that is not a solution that works for a lot of people.  

[MmmmmmBuddy]

 I just don't see a great solution, unless they start upping prizes and hunting bogus handicaps to get the guys that are frustrated back in the tournaments.

 

That is the problem...  There is NOT a good solution..

[DaveP043]

I don't have any answers, but I can tell you about a league I play in.  We have teams from 20 private clubs in the Northern Virginia area, with handicaps of the players ranging from 5 to 16.  We each play 8 matches in a season, each team match consists of three 4-ball matches both home and away.  Every hole counts for a point.  Each individual score is posted on our league website.  The team captains (I've been captain of our team for 4 years now) consistently check these records against the handicap postings to be sure that the scores are posted correctly, and are posted as tournament rounds.  In Virginia, as in a number of other states, all handicaps are maintained through the Ghin system, so its easy to see the posted numbers online.  If someone doesn't post a score in a timely manner, he may not be allowed to play in another match until the scores are posted.  I believe we do a good job of keeping handicaps in the league pretty honest, but it takes effort from a significant number of people.

If you're in a private club, and the handicap committee isn't doing the job you think it should, I suggest you get involved with the committee yourself.  Yeah, its a thankless job, but if nobody is willing to do it, you get the chaos that's been described.

In the case originally posted, someone (tournament organizer perhaps) should verify handicaps before the competition.  Someone (his opponents?) should make sure that the score was posted, as a tournament score.  If he doesn't post his score, his home handicap committee should be notified.  The handicap committee CAN post it without notifying the player, and can even post an additional "penalty score."  Essentially, we all have to be active in policing ourselves, and those around us.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

 

If you're in a private club, and the handicap committee isn't doing the job you think it should, I suggest you get involved with the committee yourself.  Yeah, its a thankless job, but if nobody is willing to do it, you get the chaos that's been described.

In the case originally posted, someone (tournament organizer perhaps) should verify handicaps before the competition.  Someone (his opponents?) should make sure that the score was posted, as a tournament score.  If he doesn't post his score, his home handicap committee should be notified.  The handicap committee CAN post it without notifying the player, and can even post an additional "penalty score."  Essentially, we all have to be active in policing ourselves, and those around us.

 

This.

 

Well thought out and well written. 

 

Thank you.

[markb]

Sometimes the sandbagger police are alert and have their radar guns out and sometimes they're just eating doughnuts.

 

I played in a mixed scramble this weekend with a good female partner and our combined hcp is low so we're usually paired with the favorites.    Our opponents were a gal with about a  legit 10 and a guy who was a plus, for an adjusted 1.6 as a team (that's how good he was).   They shot a legit 8 under and took first place gross.

 

Played in another where the guy claimed to be a "7" because his wife was a "17" and the rules stated you had to be within ten of each other.     He was really scratch, hit the ball 310+, and he later confessed that his best round of the year was a gross 62.   He and his wife win everything everytime in their area, so much so that she doesn't even try and gets toasted by about the 5 hole.

 

What can you do?   We just avoid the ones that they will be playing in.

[Kenny B]

Sometimes the sandbagger police are alert and have their radar guns out and sometimes they're just eating doughnuts.

 

I played in a mixed scramble this weekend with a good female partner and our combined hcp is low so we're usually paired with the favorites.    Our opponents were a gal with about a  legit 10 and a guy who was a plus, for an adjusted 1.6 as a team (that's how good he was).   They shot a legit 8 under and took first place gross.

 

Played in another where the guy claimed to be a "7" because his wife was a "17" and the rules stated you had to be within ten of each other.     He was really scratch, hit the ball 310+, and he later confessed that his best round of the year was a gross 62.   He and his wife win everything everytime in their area, so much so that she doesn't even try and gets toasted by about the 5 hole.

 

What can you do?   We just avoid the ones that they will be playing in.

 

So how was he allowed to play as a "7"?  I can understand if the differential is supposed to be 10 and he is scratch, that she could have played as 10.  Just curious why he was allowed to adjust up.

[markb]

Because he maintains multiple handicaps in different clubs in different states and he selects the one he needs to conform to whatever rules are in effect.   Naturally that 62 didn't get posted anywhere.

[Kenny B]

Like so many on this thread, I do not play in tournaments anymore unless I am doing it for fun and the charity.  When the cost to play is $80-100, it doesn't make sense otherwise.  I see the same people winning at several different courses.  

 

I keep the GHIN to see how my game is progressing (or not).  I could keep it myself, but there are local gangsomes that use it to pick teams.  There is some cheating in those too, but it's more difficult to continually keep a sandbagged cap.  People know who they are.  Here's the most used gangsome technique:   Teams of 4, count 2 best scores on the hole.  If the team has 2 pars or better already in the cup, and you have a short putt for par; easy miss and take a bogey.  Frustrating!  

[revkev]

Like so many on this thread, I do not play in tournaments anymore unless I am doing it for fun and the charity.  When the cost to play is $80-100, it doesn't make sense otherwise.  I see the same people winning at several different courses.  

 

I keep the GHIN to see how my game is progressing (or not).  I could keep it myself, but there are local gangsomes that use it to pick teams.  There is some cheating in those too, but it's more difficult to continually keep a sandbagged cap.  People know who they are.  Here's the most used gangsome technique:   Teams of 4, count 2 best scores on the hole.  If the team has 2 pars or better already in the cup, and you have a short putt for par; easy miss and take a 

 

Even that is surmountable, if there is a pattern insist that the pro or handicap committee take the guys card and simply apply his current handicap to it based on assumed scores.

 

I've been contemplating the USGA chart that Mmmmmmbuddy supplied earlier in this thread. Since my league is individual score you can play with whom ever you like, so long as it's a league member, and your score gets posted within your flight. I almost always play with a friend who over the past 8 years has vacillated between a 15-19. He was a 15 when we met, went to 19 after knee surgery three years ago and is back down to 17. I've jumped between 2 and 9 although I'm generally right at a 3.

 

Essentially there is 14 strokes between us in handicap differential. We have played at least 250 rounds together by the rules of golf, putt it out, play it down. We have also played another 100 or so casual rounds together. He has never once returned a lower gross score than I have nor as he evr in a casual round returned an 18 hole score lower than I have. On rare occasion he has gotten me on a 9.

 

I think those charts and their odds are spot on. Of course odd things happen. Sometimes a player has an injury or illness or run of time when he doesn't play well. Then he gets well and it takes his handicap a time to catch up.

[DaveP043]

Even that is surmountable, if there is a pattern insist that the pro or handicap committee take the guys card and simply apply his current handicap to it based on assumed scores.

 

Its interesting to read the USGA Handicap Manual:

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-08/

The local handicap committee has virtually complete power to adjust a handicap, either up or down, to reflect any number of issues.  One specific case is the Committee's power to adjust or withdraw the handicap of a player "deliberately taking extra strokes to inflate a score."  Report the cheaters!  They're stealing from you, just as much as the guy who breaks into your car and steals your Garmin.  In the case of a guy keeping handicaps at multiple clubs in different states, research him through Ghin, and write one letter to send to each club, to each of the state's golf association, and to each of the tournaments in which you know he's played.  Heck, I'd take a copy of the same letter with me to tournaments.  If you see him there, hand a copy to the organizers, let them research him during play, maybe he'll get publicly DQed.  Don't let a small number of players keep you from playing the events you'd like to play yourself.  

[revkev]

Its interesting to read the USGA Handicap Manual:

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-08/

The local handicap committee has virtually complete power to adjust a handicap, either up or down, to reflect any number of issues.  One specific case is the Committee's power to adjust or withdraw the handicap of a player "deliberately taking extra strokes to inflate a score."  Report the cheaters!  They're stealing from you, just as much as the guy who breaks into your car and steals your Garmin.  In the case of a guy keeping handicaps at multiple clubs in different states, research him through Ghin, and write one letter to send to each club, to each of the state's golf association, and to each of the tournaments in which you know he's played.  Heck, I'd take a copy of the same letter with me to tournaments.  If you see him there, hand a copy to the organizers, let them research him during play, maybe he'll get publicly DQed.  Don't let a small number of players keep you from playing the events you'd like to play yourself.

 

And that's it, the small number of players.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

Another piece of anecdotal evidence. I played in a customers Member/Guest this past weekend. On Saturday, the format was a 9 hole better ball qualifier for a 10 team horserace that afternoon. All net of course. My partner is an 8.1, an my current GHIN is an 8.7. We shot a Gross 36 (Net 31)  on a very narrow golf course, with tricky greens. We were in a scorecard playoff for the 10th spot in the Horserace.....  Net 5 under was 10th out of 36 teams....  There were 2 Net 27's, 2 net 28's and a pile of 29's and 30's......

[sp0rtsfan86]

Another piece of anecdotal evidence. I played in a customers Member/Guest this past weekend. On Saturday, the format was a 9 hole better ball qualifier for a 10 team horserace that afternoon. All net of course. My partner is an 8.1, an my current GHIN is an 8.7. We shot a Gross 36 (Net 31)  on a very narrow golf course, with tricky greens. We were in a scorecard playoff for the 10th spot in the Horserace.....  Net 5 under was 10th out of 36 teams....  There were 2 Net 27's, 2 net 28's and a pile of 29's and 30's......

Yuck. I like a lot of the skins games around here... It's a good group of guys and a lot of them know each other real well. No one can get away with cheating because everyone knows how they play. The downside is the bigger tournaments in the area are filled with hackers and sandbaggers. I play to a legit 12.1... which is probably closer to 13 than anything, and I'm sure one or two guys are a stroke or two under they're handicap.

[revkev]

Another piece of anecdotal evidence. I played in a customers Member/Guest this past weekend. On Saturday, the format was a 9 hole better ball qualifier for a 10 team horserace that afternoon. All net of course. My partner is an 8.1, an my current GHIN is an 8.7. We shot a Gross 36 (Net 31)  on a very narrow golf course, with tricky greens. We were in a scorecard playoff for the 10th spot in the Horserace.....  Net 5 under was 10th out of 36 teams....  There were 2 Net 27's, 2 net 28's and a pile of 29's and 30's......

 

That's crazy - out of how many groups that played?  If handicaps are valid you should get as many Net 27's in this format as you get gross 27's with two touring pros playing together in the Ryder Cup.  Anyone want to guess at how often that happens.

 

Actually thinking about it you should get far fewer Net 27's because if Pros had handicaps they'd be in the plus 4-6 range. 

[GolfSpy WD]

Another piece of anecdotal evidence. I played in a customers Member/Guest this past weekend. On Saturday, the format was a 9 hole better ball qualifier for a 10 team horserace that afternoon. All net of course. My partner is an 8.1, an my current GHIN is an 8.7. We shot a Gross 36 (Net 31)  on a very narrow golf course, with tricky greens. We were in a scorecard playoff for the 10th spot in the Horserace.....  Net 5 under was 10th out of 36 teams....  There were 2 Net 27's, 2 net 28's and a pile of 29's and 30's......

 

That really sucks. I've been wanting to play a tourney for some time. Now I'm not so sure...

[MmmmmmBuddy]

There were 36 teams. In the main tournament, my partner (8.1) shot his career low round, 72, and I helped him 2 shots, so we were Gross 70, Net 60. We won the Gross side of the event. We got smoked on the net side...  Low net was 56. 

[revkev]

That really sucks. I've been wanting to play a tourney for some time. Now I'm not so sure...

 

 

Play with people you know -

 

I've found that the sandbagging comes into play with Member/Guests or community stuff where the players are unknown - I've never had much of an issue when I was the member of a club, played in a regularl game of some sort or in a league.  My league has tossed people for sandbagging and/or cheating.  I wish they would for slow play.

[Kenny B]

This is why I don't play in tournaments unless I want to donate to a specific charity. I agree club events are better, but not totally immune to 'bagging.

 

I used to play in pro-ams when I was just starting to play. We have them in our region every Monday; the pro picks 3 players from the club and his score counts + 2 other nets. Good experience, but I could never compete with people in my HCP bracket as better players had inflated HCP. But it was fun and some of the course I got to play were private where I could never get on. Good experience, nice course, and $50. The only time I did well was during a wind storm; big hitters couldn't keep it in the fairways, and I just played what I could hit straight! Also helped to get a KP, so I won some prize money.