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I'm a fan of using simulators in the retail stores. The problem I have is when they're set up improperly. And I hit balls on one this morning that I know for a fact was set up incorrectly. Why do I say that? The numbers I was getting. There's absolutely no way that the numbers it was spitting out for the irons I was trying were correct. I got them to select the proper iron # (6 iron) but he didn't let me see any of the other settings. The irons I hit were Tour Edge ProCBh and J40 cb's. I wanted to see if I liked either based on feel. I also wanted to get an idea of how they'd fall into my setup now as far as my wedges and hybrids/woods. Unless I was having a career day with 2 unfitted irons, the numbers weren't close. My current 6 iron is fitted and it's my 185-190 club. The carry distances for both were ProCBh 219 yards and J40cb 212 yards (averages, a few outliers shorter and longer of course). But 30 yards longer? Nah, not buying it. Both had PX flighted 6.0's.

 

Now that begs the question, why would you set it up THAT much out of whack? Adding elevation or wind or the percentage of boost. I could see 5 maybe even 10 yards. But 30? C'mon man. And we wonder why the golf industry is hurting? People don't like buying clubs and get to the real world and not see those pretty distances. I knew going in that they do this and it's possible and I always dismiss the numbers but I couldn't today (partly because they changed software and it pops up bigger and more toward the center of the screen). Sheesh.... I should've hit driver

 

Edit to add I didn't buy either set of irons but I did buy a dozen ProV1x logo overruns, a pair of yak leather Ecco hybrids and some 4 more yards tees (based on MGS labs) to try.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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To quote markb in another post: "He turned up the sim presets to Himalayan monastery altitude and bowling alley fairway settings for max carry and roll out"

 

When I go to our golf superstore to try something out, I always take my club with me for comparison.  As it turns out, I hit my club a lot further on their monitor too.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Yeah I didn't take mine and I know they're set to give you better numbers. But on the couple I knew I hit sideways because the irons were too flat, it still went as far as a well struck 6 now. Lol. Just provoking conversation mainly and throwing out another reason why people are leaving the game. Because they can't reproduce their sim numbers

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I can't argue with anything here.   The more I use monitors and sim software, the less impressed I become with them.   That's because most of the general public's exposure to monitors and sims is NOT the pro tour Trackman with a highly trained operator.   It's with a lesser system manned by a college age kid in a starving-for-business box store.   Their primary motivation is to get you into a new set of clubs fast.   They'll do anything to achieve that goal because they're literally starving.  

 

If buyers would open their eyes, more and more people would come back from a commercial fitting session questioning what they just saw.   "Fittings" are necessary, I was first fit for clubs 35 years ago for Pings.   No one questions the utility of playing clubs that are fit and these days everyone can get those basic Ping fitting specs correct with little effort.   And a really good doppler fitting with a seasoned and unbiased operator is also very useful to the experienced golf club ho like Rookie and myself.

 

But the buying of clubs solely based on a half dozen launch monitor swings off an indoor mat is the height of absurdity.   Mini mall retailers would like us to believe that this is the proper way to buy clubs because it allows them to supplant the role of the green grass pro, who used to watch what you did on his range before he fit you for the clubs that often he would also customize for you.  

 

So with this our modern trade off, Joe Hacker has gone from putting himself into the hands of a seasoned PGA pro and club-builder, to a knucklehead in a mini-mall with a rigged machine trying to move his overstock before they shutter the store.   Are we better or worse off than before?

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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Oh there wasn't an operator present when I was hitting these. I always ask them to set it up and leave because I can see the numbers myself and I actually do understand them. I just found it funny he only set the club and wouldn't let me view anything else as far as settings (when my buddy that works there is there I get him to set it up for me as he let's me see them all so I know it's not total Bs).

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I agree.  They did not want you to see how they had rigged it.

 

I pay for my monitor time sans operator -- but the last time I had to go in and UNDO all the presets.  They had it rigged so that club A would outperform club B.   Once I saw this, I knew I'd never be back.  (Well, also because it took a half hour out of my paid hour to undo the presets).

 

Two other things I noticed because I hit a lot of balls on it   (GC2 system)

 

a.  There were MANY misreads.   I'd say, one in every 15 to 20 swings were reads where the spin number or L.A. number would come back way off.  Like lets say my average driver spin number would be 2650.  Every so often it would spit out a 1500 number.   What?  The swing felt no different than the others.

 

b.  Some outputs were suspiciously identical to each other,  In other words, for every ten shots, I'd see some suspicious "twins" of ball speed.  Outputs that both read 2384, or other similar duplicates.  Now if it is supposedly giving accurate readings and not big ol' guesstimations, I shouldn't see this.  I should see 2386 or 2383 even if the actual spin was close.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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I can't argue with anything here.   The more I use monitors and sim software, the less impressed I become with them.   That's because most of the general public's exposure to monitors and sims is NOT the pro tour Trackman with a highly trained operator.   It's with a lesser system manned by a college age kid in a starving-for-business box store.   Their primary motivation is to get you into a new set of clubs fast.   They'll do anything to achieve that goal because they're literally starving.  

 

If buyers would open their eyes, more and more people would come back from a commercial fitting session questioning what they just saw.   "Fittings" are necessary, I was first fit for clubs 35 years ago for Pings.   No one questions the utility of playing clubs that are fit and these days everyone can get those basic Ping fitting specs correct with little effort.   And a really good doppler fitting with a seasoned and unbiased operator is also very useful to the experienced golf club ho like Rookie and myself.

 

But the buying of clubs solely based on a half dozen launch monitor swings off an indoor mat is the height of absurdity.   Mini mall retailers would like us to believe that this is the proper way to buy clubs because it allows them to supplant the role of the green grass pro, who used to watch what you did on his range before he fit you for the clubs that often he would also customize for you.  

 

So with this our modern trade off, Joe Hacker has gone from putting himself into the hands of a seasoned PGA pro and club-builder, to a knucklehead in a mini-mall with a rigged machine trying to move his overstock before they shutter the store.   Are we better or worse off than before?

Very well said that last paragraph says my exact sentiments

Driver Homna  G1- X Stock Homna Regular shaft

4 wood Adams Tight Lies 

5 wood Adams Tight Lies 

24* Hybrid Adams A 10-OS Pro Launch Red R

Irons 5 thru PW 1980 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts

SW- Wilson Staff JP II 56* shaft unknown

Putter 1997 Santa Fe rusty as heck

 

 

 

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Ok everyone on here knows I am a crumudgen or old fart or old school whatever you call me. I dont worry about numbers period. I do experiment some with clubs I have modified. The only modern machine I use is my friend's shaft frequency machine. For me I will test a club by many steps. If it passes my basic criteria on feel and eye appeal it goes to the range. If it passes there then it goes to the course on a practice round or two. In rare cases I dont modify a club at all and it will be playable for me. I have been on a simulator a few times and it did not impress me any. At a Tm demo that I was dragged to the TM rep did tell me I had the face open 2* or so at impact yep I know that and how else do you hit a baby cut with a outside to in swing. I just do it my way right or wrong by feel and sight. But I will say whatever floats your boat.

Driver Homna  G1- X Stock Homna Regular shaft

4 wood Adams Tight Lies 

5 wood Adams Tight Lies 

24* Hybrid Adams A 10-OS Pro Launch Red R

Irons 5 thru PW 1980 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts

SW- Wilson Staff JP II 56* shaft unknown

Putter 1997 Santa Fe rusty as heck

 

 

 

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So today when I was in Golfsmith I should not believe that I was flying the new Cally V series past my gamer???? I figured since I was hitting a regular flex in bare feet I may have tapped into something positive for my game.

 

The reason that they do it is to just sell clubs. I would guess that about 80% of the people hitting balls at retail stores believed the numbers and think they can replicate these on the course.

In the Bag for 2020

PXG 0811XF Gen 2 10.5* (set at 9*) AD VR 6x

PXG 0341X Gen 2 15* AD TP 7x

PXG 0317X Gen 2 19* KBS Proto 95x

PXG 0311T Gen 3 4-6 KBS $ Taper 130

PXG 0311 ST 7 - PW KBS $ Taper 130

PXG 0311 Sugar Daddy 50/10 KBS $ Taper 130

PXG 0311 Sugar Daddy 54/10 & 58/07 TTDG TI S400

:rife-putters-1: Two Bar Blade Long 47"

 

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I have to ask, how could you rig a monitor to give you better numbers for the first club than the second one in a series without touching the settings In between clubs?

Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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It depends on what you want to rig. I only caught them rigging the smash factors so that one club would show a higher clubhead speed than the other with the same swing.

 

Give me a couple of hours alone with it and I'm sure I could find other ways.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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Interesting... When I got my set of clubs the monitor was actually on point with what I'm hitting my clubs now. I have to give those guys credit, I was shocked that it held up. I think the numbers they give you in monitors are full of it for the most part. 

 

Perhaps MGS should have everyone go to a store and see if what percentage fudge the numbers. I'd actually like to know that data.

 Driver:   :callaway-small:  Epic Flash 12 Degree

Wood: :callaway-small:  GBB 3 Wood
Hybrid: :callaway-small: Razr 4 hybriid stiff stock shaft.
Irons: :callaway-small: X2 Hot 4 iron (pro version) 5 iron - Gap Wedge (non pro version).  KBS 120g Shaft stiff cut 1/2  inch bent 1°upright
Wedges: :vokey-small: 52° 56° and 60°.
All grips are Golf pride grips midsized
Putter (lefty):  Odyssey Metal-X #8 34", stock shaft bent 2° Superstroke grip
Golf Balls:   :titelist-small: 2018-9 Pro-V1x and Prov1s
Shoes:  :footjoy-small:  Dryjoy tours

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Everyone go to there local store and see how far they are off and we can post a leaderboard for the worst offenders? :P

Driver: Titleist 907 D2 7.5* Aldila VS Proto Shaft 65 X

 

Fairway Woods: Titleist 980F 19* Pro Trajectory stock Titleist 4375 R shaft (desperately need to replace)

 

Irons: Taylormade LT2's 3-PW S300 dynamic golds

 

Sand Wedge: Vokey 56* 256 10 Oil can 8620 finish True temper shaft

 

Lob Wedge: Shark 64* wedge True temper shaft

 

Putter: Scotty Cameron Studio Style Newport 2 blade, 303 GSS Insert, 35'' 330g 4*L 71*L

 

Ball: Pro VI

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I bought my current 3 wood from the PGA Superstore in Denver, CO.

 

I was out there for work and stopped in because I wanted to try out the latest 3 woods.

 

I had never hit on a good monitor before and honestly I don't know what kind they use.

 

But the guy who helped me had me hit mine first and then I hit about 5 others before finding "the one".

 

It was noticeably longer than any of the others, some by 30 yards.

 

I bought it and long story short it's every bit as far as it was on the monitor. My old 3 wood I could hit about 230 if I creamed it.

 

I've measured some 260's with my GPS with the new three wood. I believe on their monitor the furthest I hit it was about 255.

 

So I would say that shows that you can get some honesty sometimes.

"I'd play a ladies set of clubs if it allowed me to break par."

PING G410 LST Fujikura Pro 2.0 Tour Spec 6

Titleist 17, 19, and 21 degree 818 H2 Hybrids

Ping G700 5 - GW

Titleist Vokey SM7 54 Wedge

Titleist Vokey SM7 58 Wedge

Evenroll ER3

Snell MTB-X

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Always enjoy these launch monitor threads, so I thought I'd hop in and address a few of the things that have been said in the various posts...

 

It's no secret that retailers will jack-up a launch monitor from time to time. Just about every LM has the capability to alter reality, but generally that feature is there for a reason. Altitude, temperature, humidity, and other variations of multiple "what if" scenarios can be altered to one degree or another in most units (FlightScope, Trackman, Foresight GC2, etc.).

 

While Dick's has switched most (if not all by now) stores to GC2, it's not uncommon to find aboutGolf systems in various retailers. The AG units have what they call a profile. Basically, the higher the profile value the farther the ball will generally travel . It was put there to account/adapt to various swing and launch conditions (limitations of the hardware really), but it can easily be exploited to create false distance.

 

Given that RB7 mentioned he selected 6 iron, I'm going to assume that was an AG unit (wind may have been on, but most likely the profile was boosted). In any case, there's no practical difference between setting it on driver, 6 iron, or wedge. No difference on the reported numbers. The designations exist largely for comparison (review) purposes.

 

I don't care what the unit is...if you're launch monitor is misreading one out of 15 or 20...that's pretty damn good. Top tier. Singling out GC2 for inaccuracy, particularly in an indoor environment, is well...misinformed. They all miss...and more than most people are comfortable admitting.

 

At the time of this writing (2:10 PM Eastern Time on September 15th, 2014), there is no better indoor launch monitor than GC2. You can take my word for it. You can believe me when I tell you that I've been told the same thing by fitters and R&D guys at no less than 4 OEMs (with really only one dissenting voice), or you can take a look at what those same manufacturers (and several others) use in their own indoor testing/fitting setups. 

 

It's GC2. Nearly all of them use GC2 indoors. 

 

Outdoors it's Trackman. Reps who have to pay for their own units, will often buy FlightScope to save money, but when you're at the Kingdom, or Ely Callaway Performance Center, or Titleist, or...or...or, it's Trackman.

 

Not that it has come up, but worth a note, neither of the major radar units give consistent, let alone accurate info on clubhead data for wedges. At least Trackman will display blanks and (*) to let you know that the data isn't reliable. GC2 with HMT gives accurate data for wedges.

 

Also worth a mention, guys inside the OEMs tell me that while it's generally consistent, clubhead data for radar units, even for drivers is not accurate...consistent, but not accurate. Again, if you want accurate and consistent, you need a camera based system (and the stickers for the clubhead).

 

I've done some side by side testing with camera systems and radar. Broad strokes here, but camera systems are generally more consistent. All of them will throw an anomalous reading in the mix from time to time, so in a head to head setting, you simply have to reconcile what you see with the two sets of numbers. When you've only got one monitor, you have to decide whether or not what you see is real. Of course, the more time I've spent with them, the more I've found that what I think I see isn't always supported by the data. Humans miss too.

MyGolfSpy is only major golf site that refuses advertising from large golf companies. With your support we can keep it that way. Donate Today
 


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I've done some side by side testing with camera systems and radar. Broad strokes here, but camera systems are generally more consistent. All of them will throw an anomalous reading in the mix from time to time, so in a head to head setting, you simply have to reconcile what you see with the two sets of numbers. When you've only got one monitor, you have to decide whether or not what you see is real. Of course, the more time I've spent with them, the more I've found that what I think I see isn't always supported by the data. Humans miss too.

 

Would you say that the easiest way to compare would be to bring your current gamer and compare it since you know what it can do?

"I'd play a ladies set of clubs if it allowed me to break par."

PING G410 LST Fujikura Pro 2.0 Tour Spec 6

Titleist 17, 19, and 21 degree 818 H2 Hybrids

Ping G700 5 - GW

Titleist Vokey SM7 54 Wedge

Titleist Vokey SM7 58 Wedge

Evenroll ER3

Snell MTB-X

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Would you say that the easiest way to compare would be to bring your current gamer and compare it since you know what it can do?

 

Absolutely. Most of our swings vary from day to day (even hour to hour), but if you let your gamer serve as your control you don't have to worry as much about yardage or even ball speed. Instead you can focus on the simple concept of better. Is it better than your gamer?

 

Worth a note, we've found that the AG marked balls have a tendency to spin a bit more (they're range quality at best) than a 'normal' ball, so a system that allows you to test with the ball you play most often is always preferable. 

MyGolfSpy is only major golf site that refuses advertising from large golf companies. With your support we can keep it that way. Donate Today
 


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I find my GC2 to be quite accurate, but I don't mess with the settings to fool myself into thinking I'm Bubba ;)

What's In The Bag

Driver :titelist-small:

Titleist 913 D2 10.5* (set to 9.75* / Neutral) 46" Paderson KINETIXX Kevlar Green - R

Fairway Wood

Tom Wishon 949 MC 16.5* Fujikura Speeder 569-A

Hybrid  :cleveland-small: Hibore 22* Aldila VS Proto Blue

Irons  :ping-small: G series 5-P

Wedges :ping-small:Glide 54* SS / 60* TS - SCOR 53*

Putter     :nike-small: Nike Method 001 / P2 Reflex grip 35"

Ball

Master Grip Tour C4

Bag

Datrek DG Lite  

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T,

I wasn't saying anything negative about monitors. I use them myself. I generally have my own clubs with me, but this day I didn't. I just found it funny that they had it jacked up that much. A few yards, okay I'll buy that for a dollar, but 30 or more? Nah, not with an iron. Lol. It was humorous, nothing more nothing less. Just wanted to bring it up more for entertainment value than anything, but to maybe get one person that didn't consider this "variable" to exist to think about it.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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It depends on what you want to rig. I only caught them rigging the smash factors so that one club would show a higher clubhead speed than the other with the same swing.

 

Give me a couple of hours alone with it and I'm sure I could find other ways.

I have no doubt that a shot can be distorted what I'm questioning is how the machine could be preset so that it gets different sets of conditions on consecutive shots without operator intervention in between shots?

Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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