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How much Spin Milling is too much?


markb
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Has anyone seen the aggressive spin milling on the Wishon PCF micro wedges?   A buddy showed me his today.   Ye gads, I've never seen anything that rough on another wedge.   You can feel the ridges through a golf glove and they rip covers in cheese grate slivers like the old time square grooves used to do.   How can this be legal?   (Not that I think Wishon would make an illegal club)

 

I can't find a picture that does those ridges justice.   In person you can see them from a way off, they are severe.  This pic is the best I could do.

 

wishon.jpg

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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I wonder how the usga measures surface roughness. Cleveland says their wedges have micro-milling for the roughest surface allowed. Seems like it would wear off fairly quickly.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Prior to seeing these wedges, I thought that Cleveland offered the roughest milling, but these are many times rougher.  Even our own Scor wedges have fairly rough milled faces when new.   Again, the Wishons are many times rougher.   Their faces feel like metal files.   I don't understand how they can do it.   I also note that the Wishon's sport the 20 thin grooves as opposed to the 15 or 16 thicker grooves.   This is legal option wedge makers have, I've seen it on Nike's.   But the overall effect on these clubs is severe.   And unlike many of the lightly laser-etched and CNC milled surfaces I've seen, these Wishon's faces don't look like they're wearing away any time soon.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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That roughness will wear off in less than one Season.......

Driver: PXG 0211 w/Evenflo Riptide CB Regular shaft 

Fairways:  Cobra King F8 3-4W(16*) & 5-6W(20*) w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft 

Hybrid: Cobra F8 3 Hybrid(19*) w/Recoil ES regular shaft 

Irons: Wilson D7 5-PW w/Recoil 460 Regular graphite shafts 

Wedges: Cleveland RTX Zipcore(50*/54*/58*) w/True Temper Spinner Wedge steel shaft  

Putter: 33" Evnroll ER2 w/Evnroll Gravity Grip 

Bag: Vice cart bag(Black).  

Pushcart:  Caddytek 3.0 from Costco

Ball: Maxfli Tour CG & Titleist Pro V1x.

 

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Prior to seeing these wedges, I thought that Cleveland offered the roughest milling, but these are many times rougher.  Even our own Scor wedges have fairly rough milled faces when new.   Again, the Wishons are many times rougher.   Their faces feel like metal files.   I don't understand how they can do it.   I also note that the Wishon's sport the 20 thin grooves as opposed to the 15 or 16 thicker grooves.   This is legal option wedge makers have, I've seen it on Nike's.   But the overall effect on these clubs is severe.   And unlike many of the lightly laser-etched and CNC milled surfaces I've seen, these Wishon's faces don't look like they're wearing away any time soon.

 

If Cleveland says they have the roughest surface allowed by the USGA, and these are many times rougher, how can they be legal?  I wouldn't think the 20 thin grooves would be that good in wet grass, but then my old Ping Eye 2's had many grooves and they worked OK (but the grooves were "non-conforming").  They are what I used until I bought the SCORs.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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That's what I'm asking myself!   All I can say is that when I saw these for the first time and held them in my hands, I asked myself, "How can this be legal?"   It's really not even accurate to call their milling "surface roughness", it's more rugged than that.

 

The difference between these and all other milled wedges I've seen (which is just about all of them) was striking.   I'm sorry I couldn't get a good photo of them, that's why I wondered if anyone else hand seen them in person.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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I played again with the same Wishon buddy today. He crushed me and my 4 water balls didn't help much.

 

 Anyway, afterwards we went into our local golf shop to compare wedges. None came even close in terms of rough surface milling. In fact, we really couldn't feel the etching on Vokeys and Clevelands. The only wedges we could feel the milling, besides the Wishons, was the Pinseeker. So we did a little experiment, we closed our eyes and felt the faces. We could tell the Wishon instantly every time. So we asked the guys working there to do the same test. They had no trouble either.

 

 BTW, I'm not trying to tout these clubs. In fact, I've never hit them. I just found their faces to be very unusual.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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Doesn't really matter. Check the labs done on here. Or if you want more technical, there are studies done on the subject. Groove less wedge spins just as much. All grooves are for is to move water and dirt. The surface milling is to ensure a perfectly flat face.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I had read this article before, but this is good timing with Andrew Rice being a new Spy contributor.  Very interesting read.

 

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2014/5/to-go-milled-or-not-milled

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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I had read this article before, but this is good timing with Andrew Rice being a new Spy contributor.  Very interesting read.

 

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2014/5/to-go-milled-or-not-milled

 

Well, that says everything.

 

Which raises the interesting point -- if multiple tests show that milling and face etching do nothing for increasing spin, then there should be no USGA & RA rules governing it.   Is this correct?  

 

And if that is correct, it would explain why these Wishon have such aggressively milled faces -- they can do it because it's not illegal to do it.

 

Which leads me to wonder when does a deeply milled channel become a groove?

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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I wrote an article on this almost two years ago. The USGA did studies on micro grooves when they made the new groove rule. They say that these face etchings are not deep enough to have any effect on spin if they are made within in legal limits. The rule says 180 microinches, USGA's tests showed that they had to be at least 400microinches.

 

Srixon/Cleveland sent me a lot of documents from their testing. Wasn't allowed to show everything, but it basically says that they have no effect in good shot conditions but will help in the rough. We're talking 2-300rpm higher than without them. Srixon/Cleveland found that there's improved spin from 90-140microinches, far below the 400 stated by the USGA.

 

I was also in touch with Wilson. They claim that testing shows more spin with micro grooves on partial shots, not full swings.

 

skjermbilde_2013-09-25_kl._09.44.18.png

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This is all very interesting stuff.   Thanks to everyone who is contributing.

 

Interestingly, my buddy who was using this Wishon was really loving the way it spun on 70 yard low punches, which he said he couldn't do with his old wedges.   When we both hit 105 yard full shots, I didn't really see his stop any faster than mine.

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bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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What gets me is that the USGA says:

"Sandblasting or other treatments of roughness greater than 180 micro inches are not permitted. In addition, for milling, the crest to trough depth must not exceed 0.001 inches (0.025 mm). A reasonable tolerance is allowed for both of these measurements. Non-conforming sandblasting or milling usually feels rough to the touch."   

Really?  Rough to the touch?  That's how they are going to tell?  How is anyone going to measure 0.001 inches, oh and with a "reasonable tolerance", whatever that is, to see if anyone's club is non-conforming?

BTW, the Wishon is on the conforming list.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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What gets me is that the USGA says:

"Sandblasting or other treatments of roughness greater than 180 micro inches are not permitted. In addition, for milling, the crest to trough depth must not exceed 0.001 inches (0.025 mm). A reasonable tolerance is allowed for both of these measurements. Non-conforming sandblasting or milling usually feels rough to the touch."   

Really?  Rough to the touch?  That's how they are going to tell?  How is anyone going to measure 0.001 inches, oh and with a "reasonable tolerance", whatever that is, to see if anyone's club is non-conforming?

BTW, the Wishon is on the conforming list.

 

...  and it is REALLY rough to the touch.

bag - SunMountain Synch with Ogio Synergy X4 cart
driver - :callaway-small: Optiforce 440, Paderson Kevlar Green stiff 46.5"
fwoods - :taylormade-small: Jetspeed, 3HL regular
irons - :taylormade-small:  Speedblades 3-8, 85g stiff steel, 2 up
wedges - :edilon-small: Scor 40, 45, 50, 54, 58
putter - :ping-small: Ketsch 35" slight arc, SuperStroke 2.0 mid-slim
ball - :titelist-small: ProV1x

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