How to know if shafts are spined?

[Undershooter]

I had my club guy put some shafts in some different iron heads today. I thought he had spined them when he had put them in the first set but I specifically told him to do it this time. I get the irons back today and the grips make them look like they were nowhere near spine aligned the first time. He charged me and extra 40 bucks this time to spine align them. Is there a way to tell if he actually did it? I'm kind of annoyed because I'm pretty sure I told him to the first time.

[TIBA_Putt - Kyle]

The only way I've ever see someone determnd the spine of a shaft is to put it in the machine thing that bends the shaft and allows them to roll it to find the spine. If there's another way to find the spine of a shaft, I don't know it.

[Undershooter]

The only way I've ever see someone determnd the spine of a shaft is to put it in the machine thing that bends the shaft and allows them to roll it to find the spine. If there's another way to find the spine of a shaft, I don't know it.

I've seen ways to do it like you were saying with graphite. Not sure about steel though.

[Blade]

I've learned the bearing spine finder is rarely accurate because there will always be a natural slight bend that can influence if not completely hide a true spine. The better way is with a laser attached to the shaft while clamped on a bench. Pulling the shaft and releasing it to wobble, you can see if the laser wobbles and changes direction. When pulled in the direction of the natural bend point or the spine, it will vibrate in a straight line. What you feel with the bearings usually won't match that method. It won't work with the heads on either way obviously. There are more sophisticated methods as well.

[Undershooter]

I've learned the bearing spine finder is rarely accurate because there will always be a natural slight bend that can influence if not completely hide a true spine. The better way is with a laser attached to the shaft while clamped on a bench. Pulling the shaft and releasing it to wobble, you can see if the laser wobbles and changes direction. When pulled in the direction of the natural bend point or the spine, it will vibrate in a straight line. What you feel with the bearings usually won't match that method. It won't work with the heads on either way obviously. There are more sophisticated methods as well.

So basically there is no way to tell if he screwed me while the heads are on the shafts?

[TIBA_Putt - Kyle]

So basically there is no way to tell if he screwed me while the heads are on the shafts?

Sounds like if you have a bench with a vise on it, you could make this method work. Tape a small laser to the grip, clamp the shaft down so the face points up, pull shaft down and release. If I'm understanding the process right, the shaft(and therefore laser) will oscillate perfectly(or really closely) vertical. If not, it would oscillate into more of a round or oval pattern. Maybe??

 

Would just have to make sure you clamp is as to not hurt the shaft.

 

I'm kind of curious now, cause I think the guys that did this process for my clubs use the other method I mentioned before. I may try to make a wooden shaft clamp for my vise and see if I can make this work.

[Undershooter]

Sounds like if you have a bench with a vise on it, you could make this method work. Tape a small laser to the grip, clamp the shaft down so the face points up, pull shaft down and release. If I'm understanding the process right, the shaft(and therefore laser) will oscillate perfectly(or really closely) vertical. If not, it would oscillate into more of a round or oval pattern. Maybe??

Would just have to make sure you clamp is as to not hurt the shaft.

I'm kind of curious now, cause I think the guys that did this process for my clubs use the other method I mentioned before. I may try to make a wooden shaft clamp for my vise and see if I can make this work.

Yes that is how you do it but I thought the last part meant it wouldn't work with the heads on the iron shafts. I've seen this before but it was with graphite shafts.

[TIBA_Putt - Kyle]

I may make a shaft/hosel clamp out of wood tomorrow just as a test. If I can clamp it down safely I may be able to test it sufficiently enough to find the spine. Either way, it'll be a fun little project to play with.

[Blade]

Yea I'm not sure what results you would get oscillating the butt end instead of the tip. The tip is the part that matters and you would be taking that section out of the equation.

[TIBA_Putt - Kyle]

Yea I'm not sure what results you would get oscillating the butt end instead of the tip. The tip is the part that matters and you would be taking that section out of the equation.

What if I clamp the butt end and tape a laser to the hosel and then test? The weight of the head might skew the oscillations, but maybe less skewed on the spine vs not. I'm enjoying the sound of testing this out. Tomorrow is gonna be a fun day in the garage!! 😀

[Undershooter]

I may make a shaft/hosel clamp out of wood tomorrow just as a test. If I can clamp it down safely I may be able to test it sufficiently enough to find the spine. Either way, it'll be a fun little project to play with.

I would give rubber a shot over wood. Either way let us know the results of whichever way to test you decide on. I know I'm interested.

[jaskanski]

It is impossible to correctly determine spines or frequency match a set of iron shafts with the grips on - end of story. And just because the shaft alignment is in one orientation with one set of club heads, it doesn't mean they will fall the same for a different set of club heads.

Spining is a method of eliminating frequency anomalies in the shaft to get the set as a whole to follow a smooth frequency "slope" to maintain the correct flex and feel from each iron to the next. DG shafts are particularly prone to frequency deviation because of their pronounced weld seam during manufacture. To offset this trait, it is common practice for good club makers to align the shafts for each iron until a more consistent frequency spacing is achieved - this is dependant on the particular head weight and shaft length used, hence different heads will throw up different results.

The only way to tell if the set has been correctly spine aligned is to watch someone who knows what they're doing actually perform the task...

....and it won't be done with grips on I can assure you.

[Undershooter]

It is impossible to correctly determine spines or frequency match a set of iron shafts with the grips on - end of story. And just because the shaft alignment is in one orientation with one set of club heads, it doesn't mean they will fall the same for a different set of club heads.

Spining is a method of eliminating frequency anomalies in the shaft to get the set as a whole to follow a smooth frequency "slope" to maintain the correct flex and feel from each iron to the next. DG shafts are particularly prone to frequency deviation because of their pronounced weld seam during manufacture. To offset this trait, it is common practice for good club makers to align the shafts for each iron until a more consistent frequency spacing is achieved - this is dependant on the particular head weight and shaft length used, hence different heads will throw up different results.

The only way to tell if the set has been correctly spine aligned is to watch someone who knows what they're doing actually perform the task...

....and it won't be done with grips on I can assure you.

Well I plan on regripping them soon anyway. They look like crap as of now

[PlaidJacket]

When I got my clubs fitted I had AeroTech shafts installed in all my irons. I'm not much of a techie guy but I asked about "Puring" my shafts. He told me that was a patented process that requires buying special and expensive equipment. So, he showed me how he spine-aligned my shafts. And basically he clamped the butt end in a vice type of setup on his bench and then somehow rotated the shaft with a roller-bearing until you felt it. And you can feel the spine. I tried it. Anyway... he'd mark the shaft with a sharpie and then test the spine position with a laser attached some way. I saw the process and the oscillation we're talking about. I remember saying, "Hmmm. That's interesting." That's about all I can say about my experience of spine aligning a shaft. I hated to read Undershooter's experience relating to his fitter and suspicions of being "screwed".  I'd have to say that if you feel that way perhaps it's time to go find someone else.

 

As a side note. I'll never forget during my fitting session; when I made some kind of remark sort of dismissing some technical aspect my fitter was describing to me about the building process he goes through. As we were standing close he stopped what he was doing and turned and looked me directly in the eye and said the following. "Look, I build the best set of clubs you'll ever own to the highest specifications possible. It's doesn't matter whether I'm making a set for a PGA Pro or you. You get and deserve that same quality and attention to detail or I don't do the job. Period." Wow. He kind of took a bit of offence but was serious. It wasn't a put-on. I knew right then and there my guy is deeply passionate and proud of his work. And, I'm recipient of it. Little did I know. (by the way... he at least once built a set for Payne Stewart.)

[BK in TEXAS]

Rolling the shaft in bearings will find the Neutral Bend Point (NBP).  It is usually pretty darn close to the laser method (Flat Line Oscillation or FLO).  Both find the plane the shaft wants to bend along, both are good methods.

 

Bottom line though...if you don't trust the guy....time to move on!

[mr_divots]

Find a new guy if they did it with the grips on. Whaaa?? (Double Whaaaaa?)

Most tell-tale sign a set has been spined/flo'd or sst pured by just looking at it is that the shaft graphics/silkscreens will often go every which way. Harder to tell with some models that come with the shaft label off like a KBS which can be applied after the fact.

[RookieBlue7]

The laser is to find the nbp not the spine. The spine is the hard side of the shaft. You can do it with or without a spine finder. No way to tell of he did or not if you didn't watch him. The NO BS II spine finder can be used on assembled clubs though

[Blade]

The laser is to find the nbp not the spine. The spine is the hard side of the shaft. You can do it with or without a spine finder. No way to tell of he did or not if you didn't watch him. The NO BS II spine finder can be used on assembled clubs though

I said nbp/spine because if you know where the nbp is, you know where the spine has to be also.

[Undershooter]

Well I will say this for him, the dg tour logo is all over the place and there is a little Sharpie Mark on each shaft to tell which side should go straight up. Even if he did it correctly this time, it annoys me that he didn't do it the first time. I know I mentioned it. Not to mention I can only assume he left the grips on to do it. I've never had a reason to doubt his work before but this has me wondering.

[Kenny B]

Guys,

I am new to the spine, nbp, puring stuff. I am familiar with the differences between steel and graphite. However, I remember when graphite shafts first came out and the layering process wasn't all that consistent and spining was critical. Steel had issues too. However, I read someplace recently that the process for making shafts, both steel and graphite, has made significant improvements that basically rendered spining, puring unnecessary. I say this for good, high quality shafts. I imagine that el cheapo shafts would still benefit from spining, but why??

 

So, my question is: "is spining, or puring, a waste of money given the quality of shafts today? I wish I could remember where I read this.

 

If it's not a waste of money, what is the benefit, and will I notice any difference at my meager swing speed? That's two questions, sorry.

[jaskanski]

Guys,

I am new to the spine, nbp, puring stuff. I am familiar with the differences between steel and graphite. However, I remember when graphite shafts first came out and the layering process wasn't all that consistent and spining was critical. Steel had issues too. However, I read someplace recently that the process for making shafts, both steel and graphite, has made significant improvements that basically rendered spining, puring unnecessary. I say this for good, high quality shafts. I imagine that el cheapo shafts would still benefit from spining, but why??

 

So, my question is: "is spining, or puring, a waste of money given the quality of shafts today? I wish I could remember where I read this.

 

If it's not a waste of money, what is the benefit, and will I notice any difference at my meager swing speed? That's two questions, sorry.

 

A good question.

All shafts have their own character to some extent. How that is perceived by the player is open to interpretation, but if you cannot identify one "pured" shaft from another in a double blind test then there is little point is wasting your time and money in the process.

Spining an individual club is one thing, but spinning an iron set is quite another. It can be argued that the frequency anomaly or NBP is not going to make much difference when the ball is several yards away from the club face after it has been struck. Any oscillation orientation is only valid if the club also oscillates in multiple directions during the swing (which of course it doesn't!).

In a set of iron however, with typical descending lengths and head weights through the set, the anomalies become more apparent (to those that perceive them) from club to club. Sometimes a 6-iron for example may feel somewhat stiffer or feel harsher than the 7-iron in the set - that is a classic example of mis-aligned shafts. In this case, it is more beneficial to the player to build a set of irons where the frequency can be controlled to provide a fluid feel through the set and not make the resulting flex markedly different from each club in the set. This gives greater control and predictable yardage gapping for the better player - something perhaps an individual club like a fairway wood or driver is not so critical or desirable.

Each individual will have differing perception levels - some players can detect minute differences in flex swingweight, length and lie, whereas other can't. It is true that higher swing speeds will make these traits more apparent, but not necessarily for each individual. But slower swing speeds in general have a tendency to make subtle differences in flex, swingweight and feel less apparent. 

How this translates into your own game and equipment is up to you. What I would say is that on some sets, the difference between spined and not spined is night and day - and even the most novice golfer could detect the difference.

[Kenny B]

Thanks jaskanski! Great explanation. I feel like I learned something today and it's only 7am! I guess I can go play now.

[furu]

Spine and Pure isn't relevant. It's a nice concept, but it's only psychological. 

 

Manufacturers and club technicians from the big brands have tried to measure the differences. It's not possible. Only the people who believe in spine and pure seem to be able to measure and feel the differences. 

 

This business is basically saying that Aldila, UST, PX, Matrix +++ are building shafts that are so terrible that they need their full treatment before use. It's a nice way for them to make money, but nothing more than that. 

 

If your 6i feels harsher or stiffer than your 7i, it's probably because your better at hitting your shorter irons.

 

I don't get the concept of yes for spine in iron sets, and just maybe in a driver or fw. What does spine actually do? Does it improve accurary? If yes, why wouldn't you want that in your driver?

 

The only reason why a spined iron set has good gaps between clubs is that this type of players most likely also checks his loft and lie. It's like getting a bigger motor for your boat and painting it green - and giving the new colour the credit for higher speed. 

[jbil8802]

Let me go grab some popcorn quick, this could get good.

[jaskanski]

Let me go grab some popcorn quick, this could get good.

 

You may want to grab a beer while you're at it. 

Me - I'm going to get me some green paint.

[silver & black]

Here is a take from a 9-12 handicapper. Unless you are a 2 or + handicapper, I seriously doubt that all this voodoo spine and pure stuff will matter to you at all.... if then. Will it take a stroke off of your score? I doubt it. It might matter to you if you are really that sensitive to your equipment and how it feels. I know I'm not that perceptive when it comes the feel of how the shaft bends in any certain club!

 

I use KBS Tour Stiff in my irons. I love them..... and really doubt that I would notice one iota of difference in feel or performance if spent the money to this spine/pure thing done. Just my .02 on it.

[silver & black]

Here is a take from a 9-12 handicapper. Unless you are a 2 or + handicapper, I seriously doubt that all this voodoo spine and pure stuff will matter to you at all.... if then. Will it take a stroke off of your score? I doubt it. It might matter to you if you are really that sensitive to your equipment and how it feels. I know I'm not that perceptive when it comes the feel of how the shaft bends in any certain club!

 

I use KBS Tour Stiff in my irons. I love them..... and really doubt that I would notice one iota of difference in feel or performance if I spent the money to have this spine/pure thing done. Just my .02 on it.

[Kenny B]

Wow! I go golfing for the day and missed this discussion. I'm still trying to remember where I saw the article about spining; I'll keep looking. It seemed that the article said something like you had to spine or pure in the old days; it really affected the gaps between clubs. With today's shafts being so good, the gapping is a non-issue. However, I suppose if you notice a gapping problem, a shaft could be defective.

[hckymeyer]

Popping in to give my 2 cents.  The fitter I go to locally has a SST PURE machine.  I've seen him pure shafts with the machine and I can say the technology is sound and the machine works.  He did one of the new KBS wedge shafts.  Right of out the box from KBS.  When put in the machine there was a definite wobble to the shaft as it was rotating, it goes through and finds the most stable position and marks the shaft, then the fitter knows which way to orientate the head.  I've seen enough independent test results to be a believer that the process works and a robot will get better dispersion with the process done than without it.

 

That said I don't think my swing is consistent enough that I would notice a difference on the course.  Of all the things going on when I hit a golf ball not having my shafts pured is not the one that is going to keep me from hitting the green.  If I was a tour pro it might be a different story, but for the average golfer I don't think you will see a measurable difference between sets.  Plus at $25 a shaft for the sst pure machine that's an extra $325 to have your whole set done.  For me the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

 

What I'd really like to see is a 5-10 handicap take two perfectly fit and matching clubs to a launch monitor.  One has a shaft pured and the other doesn't and see what the numbers are.  That would mean much more to me than robot testing.

[BK in TEXAS]

This is a good read....

http://www.clubmaker-online.com/spines.html