Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

How to know if shafts are spined?


Recommended Posts

I can't say I FEEL a difference with my irons when SST Pured or Spined/Flo'd.

However, isn't that the point entirely? So all your clubs feel the same through the set? That's precisely why I do it.

By comparison I have had an iron or two in a set before that I'm quite certain I was fighting the shaft orientation. The consistency for those clubs was hard to come by.

And considering my best career rounds have come with SST Pured irons in the bag, that was a nice ROI. If I get a set re-shafted, I never skip it. It's worth it to me.

"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 79
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Titleist says that they do not recommend having your clubs PURE'D.  This is due to testing with pros and high level amateurs and not being able to measure any performance difference.

 

Got this from the Titleist Forum.

Driver: Callaway Rogue 9*

FW: Sub 70 Pro 4 wood

Hybrid: Sub 70 949 Hybrid 19*

Irons:  Sub 70 

659 CB 4 - 6 Black

639 MB 7 - PW

Wedges: Sub 70

JB - 50* 54* & 60*

Putter: Odyssey White Hot #2
Ball: Titleist Pro-V1x
Handicap index:  +3.9

Instagram: joshandersongolf

Twitter: @jacustomgolf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Titleist says that they do not recommend having your clubs PURE'D.  This is due to testing with pros and high level amateurs and not being able to measure any performance difference.

 

Got this from the Titleist Forum.

Would they do it for free if it did prove to be beneficial? No. And why would they want you to go to independent clubfitters rather than their retail network? They probably used weight sorted shafts at minimum if they were tour players' clubs. They have a financial dog in this fight. I had my AP2's SST Pured and shot my career best.

I love irony! :D

"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys,

I am new to the spine, nbp, puring stuff. I am familiar with the differences between steel and graphite. :) However, I remember when graphite shafts first came out and the layering process wasn't all that consistent and spining was critical. Steel had issues too. However, I read someplace recently that the process for making shafts, both steel and graphite, has made significant improvements that basically rendered spining, puring unnecessary. I say this for good, high quality shafts. I imagine that el cheapo shafts would still benefit from spining, but why??

 

So, my question is: "is spining, or puring, a waste of money given the quality of shafts today? I wish I could remember where I read this.

 

If it's not a waste of money, what is the benefit, and will I notice any difference at my meager swing speed? That's two questions, sorry. :)

No it's not a waste of money or time. Being as I've spoken with the creator of the pure system that no longer works there but also refined that system 2 more times and now uses it in his personal shaft company (as well as when he was at Advanced Shaft Dynamics with the peaked system), it works. He has data proving it works and I've seen some of it. I posted a lot of information he's shared with me on here before. I speak with him more than as a customer as well as we've talked about many things not even pertaining to golf. I believe in his research and the science behind it. He works with the best in the world for a reason.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No OEM (Titleist included) is going to stand on record and state their products could probably do with a bit of tweaking to get the best out of them. This would be like admitting their product is either flawed or inferior. The same goes for shaft manufacturers.

True enough, their products are made to the best quality - but it is at a level of acceptable tolerance too that the consumer is willing to pay. That means most OEM sets are not blueprinted to their exact specs on paper. Why not? Well if they were, the cost would double. Every head, shaft and grip would need to be weight sorted and assembled to a meticulous level that mass production simply does not allow.

So what you have is a bit of a compromise between what they find acceptable in terms of quality control and what you are willing to pay. These two parameters may not be the same!

So fast forward to what makes a blueprinted set better?

A lot has been made getting correct lofts and lies to your iron set (which is true) but these values are always dialled in last. Whilst most OEM's may have a +/- tolerance of 1 degree or so on loft and lie, these specs are only valid if the shaft length and flex are constant too. 

For instance, if you have two identical heads with identical lofts and identical lengths, the distance each club hits would be different if the flexes are not the same. The stiffer shaft would impart less spin with a lower trajectory and the opposite would be true for the softer shaft. Now imagine the problems this makes on a progressive length and lofted iron set - yardage gapping not so accurate now if the flex cannot be maintained as accurately is it?

This is basically the reason why sets are spined and blueprinted for the golfers who have the game to take advantage of these nuances. Dynamic loft and toe droop are just two of the factors that make proper frequency and flex checking and loft and lie checking afterwards a must. You can't have one without the other really. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No OEM (Titleist included) is going to stand on record and state their products could probably do with a bit of tweaking to get the best out of them. This would be like admitting their product is either flawed or inferior. The same goes for shaft manufacturers.

True enough, their products are made to the best quality - but it is at a level of acceptable tolerance too that the consumer is willing to pay. That means most OEM sets are not blueprinted to their exact specs on paper. Why not? Well if they were, the cost would double. Every head, shaft and grip would need to be weight sorted and assembled to a meticulous level that mass production simply does not allow.

So what you have is a bit of a compromise between what they find acceptable in terms of quality control and what you are willing to pay. These two parameters may not be the same!

So fast forward to what makes a blueprinted set better?

A lot has been made getting correct lofts and lies to your iron set (which is true) but these values are always dialled in last. Whilst most OEM's may have a +/- tolerance of 1 degree or so on loft and lie, these specs are only valid if the shaft length and flex are constant too.

For instance, if you have two identical heads with identical lofts and identical lengths, the distance each club hits would be different if the flexes are not the same. The stiffer shaft would impart less spin with a lower trajectory and the opposite would be true for the softer shaft. Now imagine the problems this makes on a progressive length and lofted iron set - yardage gapping not so accurate now if the flex cannot be maintained as accurately is it?

This is basically the reason why sets are spined and blueprinted for the golfers who have the game to take advantage of these nuances. Dynamic loft and toe droop are just two of the factors that make proper frequency and flex checking and loft and lie checking afterwards a must. You can't have one without the other really.

 

I've got a question for Jas. Most of what you're saying is way over my head and probably not as pertinent to someone with my HCP. However, I just got fitted for and received a new set of MP-54s with Nippon N.S. Pro 1150 shafts. My fitter received the heads and shafts separately and checked/adjusted the lofts/lies using his own machine. Looking at them right now, all of the silk screens on the shafts are facing up at address so that would mean the shafts haven't been pured. Is that correct?

 

On a second point, I was fitted for lie using a 7-iron Mizuno lie angle head/lie board. Having only the 5-9, is that sufficient or should I be hitting each iron off a lie board to determine the lie of each iron?

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got a question for Jas. Most of what you're saying is way over my head and probably not as pertinent to someone with my HCP. However, I just got fitted for and received a new set of MP-54s with Nippon N.S. Pro 1150 shafts. My fitter received the heads and shafts separately and checked/adjusted the lofts/lies using his own machine. Looking at them right now, all of the silk screens on the shafts are facing up at address so that would mean the shafts haven't been pured. Is that correct?

 

On a second point, I was fitted for lie using a 7-iron Mizuno lie angle head/lie board. Having only the 5-9, is that sufficient or should I be hitting each iron off a lie board to determine the lie of each iron?

 

The best way to answer the question would be with another question or two:

How do you feel about the irons? 

Do they give the feel and control you want from club to club?

Distance and trajectory OK?

If your answers are yes, then you need not look any further. If your answer is no, then you might need to figure out what is the best way to solve your issues. 

No disrespect, but for most 15 handicappers, the issue often lies with the indian rather than the arrow and a quick lesson with the pro can sort out any underlying swing flaws. 

Oddly enough, I use 1150 GH's myself - and no, not all my silk screen labels are facing the same way. That probably means yours aren't aligned either, but without knowing if you specifically asked your fitter for this service, it doesn't mean you've been ripped off. The process of aligning is labour intensive and no fitter offers their work for free (not me anyway lol!). Lie boards have their uses too, but they sometimes give the wrong picture to the untrained eye. Again, without knowing too much about your fitter or how satisfied you are with your clubs, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to immediately dismantle  your set and start from scratch.

Like I said, the whole point of alignment (i don't like to refer to the Pure process) is for those that have the ability to discern it's attributes. That doesn't mean is like the Emperors clothes, it simply means it's your money and your choice. But for some sets and some shafts, the difference is quite remarkable.

Sorry if that seems like a bit of a cop out answer. I'm not here to extol the virtues of the Pure process and it's claims for any shaft, I'm only here to share my thoughts on the advantages of shaft alignment for iron sets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate it. I'm really just trying to get a better understanding of things. I've only been playing for 3 years so I'm behind the 8-ball in terms of knowledge when it comes to stuff like this. I didn't ask to have the shafts aligned nor am I sure if he even offers it. I didn't even know what it was until this thread popped up. Haven't had a chance to hit the irons yet due to weather.

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok...... is it worth spending the money on if you are barely a single digit HC? At what point or ability would this come into play as making a difference? I just can't see where a guy like me, at my skill level would notice any improvement because I spent the money to have my shafts pured. Am I full of s**t?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok...... is it worth spending the money on if you are barely a single digit HC? At what point or ability would this come into play as making a difference? I just can't see where a guy like me, at my skill level would notice any improvement because I spent the money to have my shafts pured. Am I full of s**t?

I think it makes is worth it if you can tell the difference. If you can't then its not worth it. If you hit a lot of shots that you know are supposed to go a certain number and don't and you can't explain why then it May be worth it to you. But if you can chalk it up to your swing because it may have varied and your not sure if it did. Or your ball contact may not have been perfect but you can't tell if it was then maybe it wouldn't be worth it to you.

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts. 

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts. 

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

If this is the case, why would the CEO of Paderson shafts tell me where to align the wall of the shaft upon installation? Mind you he did say there wouldn't be a huge difference but he said for best results, put so and so facing downward.

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts.

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

Stick an iron shaft in a bearing type finder. You can see and especially feel a fairly drastic difference in flex as you rotate it in a loaded condition. That's real, not imagined.

 

Is having the shafts aligned in the heads in the same direction going to knock several shots off your game? Doubtful. But if they are reacting more consistently through impact as a result, it will tighten up dispersion. Can anyone quantify how much is due to the shaft and how much to the swing? Probably not. But doing the extra work leaves you with one less variable to consider.

 

Robot testing has proven a tighter dispersion with aligned shafts. Quantifying that with a person swinging is probably not possible due to variations from swing to swing, but that doesn't mean it has no effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok...... is it worth spending the money on if you are barely a single digit HC? At what point or ability would this come into play as making a difference? I just can't see where a guy like me, at my skill level would notice any improvement because I spent the money to have my shafts pured. Am I full of s**t?

If you've never had a set where at least one club is a little "off" from the factory, or just can't feel it, then you probably would never think of doing it. I've noticed the consistency of sets that I have had it done to, and have had a few wonky shafts over the years that lead me to investigate it. I believe in it. It's not voodoo. If we can't measure a steel shaft for consistency in this day and age, I'm not letting anyone operate on me with a laser guided by a robot. :blink: :D

"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you've never had a set where at least one club is a little "off" from the factory, or just can't feel it, then you probably would never think of doing it. I've noticed the consistency of sets that I have had it done to, and have had a few wonky shafts over the years that lead me to investigate it. I believe in it. It's not voodoo. If we can't measure a steel shaft for consistency in this day and age, I'm not letting anyone operate on me with a laser guided by a robot. :blink: :D

 

I am sure there are some shafts that are just a little different from others from shaft manufacturers that maybe someone with extreme feel could tell the difference.  I am also sure that these manufacturers are not going to the expense to make every shaft perfect.  However, I find it very unlikely that with today's manufacturing processes and the competition in the shaft market, manufacturers would produce shafts that vary in a set enough to make a big difference.  A few years ago that was probably the case.  But today there is a lot of competition and their reputations are on the line, and they want to be the best shaft option for your game.  Why would they produce shafts that you have to spend $20 each to make right?  Makes no business sense.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure there are some shafts that are just a little different from others from shaft manufacturers that maybe someone with extreme feel could tell the difference.  I am also sure that these manufacturers are not going to the expense to make every shaft perfect.  However, I find it very unlikely that with today's manufacturing processes and the competition in the shaft market, manufacturers would produce shafts that vary in a set enough to make a big difference.  A few years ago that was probably the case.  But today there is a lot of competition and their reputations are on the line, and they want to be the best shaft option for your game.  Why would they produce shafts that you have to spend $20 each to make right?  Makes no business sense.

Because few golfers are that particular, and all the better if the consumer then takes on any additional expense in doing so. Makes all the biz sense in the world. Low demand for it, higher profits for the shaft co's without it.

"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone interested in reading up on spines, this is the place. http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines.php

 

 

Very interesting read if you like technical, but bottom line, Dave says:

 

... if the spine is small enough, it isn't worth aligning the shaft; there is nothing measurable to be gained.

 

I go out of my way to order shaft models that I know to have negligible spine -- then I just don't worry about aligning. My personal belief is that the threshold of negligibility is probably 3-5cpm, and I treat a spine of less than 3cpm as something I can ignore.

 

Most steel shafts and filament wound graphite shafts have almost no spine at all

 

What I find interesting is that this article was published in 2008 and there are no mention of spine alignment much after 2009.  So back 8 years ago, spine was an issue for crappy shafts but not the better shafts, and shafts have improved greatly since then.  Seems to support the Titleist position, and the only reason anyone should get shafts pured is if they are convinced they can't play their best without it!

 

I really liked his opening paragraph on How much spine is "negligible"?   

There are still a few clubmakers around who believe that there is no such thing as a negligible spine. To them, if you can find a spine, it is important to align it. And if you can't find the spine, then you're in big trouble -- because you know it's there and you won't be able to align it. I've watched these guys FLOing a shaft and muttering curses when it refuses to wobble in any orientation.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 cpm is roughly a full flex - so 3cpm is roughly equivalent to a hard step or soft step in either direction.

Some sets that I've seen unaligned have been as much as 13cpm between clubs - even someone wearing boxing gloves could probably tell the difference on that.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want a set of clubs with a random soft step or hard step thrown in somewhere where you least expect it either. FLOing is nothing without a cpm to reference against - otherwise it is just as easy to FLO a set with huge cpm gaps between clubs - which should be consistent for the flex to length progression to work. 

It's not snake oil or rocket science either - and it certainly doesn't need smoke and mirrors to show a discernible difference on sets which could be glaringly obvious.

Each to their own I guess, because you cannot really quantify "feel" to any individual. Specs and numbers are certainly much easier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts. 

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

 

Actually, it has been measured, by a person that developed SST and has refined it independently with his own product and does it free of charge on EVERY shaft he sells bearing his own name.  He has data proving it works as well.  I've seen it and shared some of it here as well.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, it has been measured, by a person that developed SST and has refined it independently with his own product and does it free of charge on EVERY shaft he sells bearing his own name.  He has data proving it works as well.  I've seen it and shared some of it here as well.

"Drops the Mic and walks away" lol

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got a question for Jas. Most of what you're saying is way over my head and probably not as pertinent to someone with my HCP. However, I just got fitted for and received a new set of MP-54s with Nippon N.S. Pro 1150 shafts. My fitter received the heads and shafts separately and checked/adjusted the lofts/lies using his own machine. Looking at them right now, all of the silk screens on the shafts are facing up at address so that would mean the shafts haven't been pured. Is that correct?

 

On a second point, I was fitted for lie using a 7-iron Mizuno lie angle head/lie board. Having only the 5-9, is that sufficient or should I be hitting each iron off a lie board to determine the lie of each iron?

To answer your second point, I personally, hit every club off of a lie board with sole tape (I use electrical tape as it marks just fine and costs pennies compared to lie angle tape) and mark every ball with lines set parallel to the ground/hitting surface.  Why do both?  The sole tape lets me see the contact point on the sole.  The mark on the ball will transfer to the face of the iron and you will see how the clubface is approaching the ball and combined both give you indication on appropriate bending.  Why every iron?  Because of tolerances manufacturers use.  Contrary to the belief of those that have never tested it, standard specs are just that, standard but not definite.  What do I mean by that?  Multiple things, not all manufacturers standard is the same for one, there's no set standard.  Two?  Tolerance.  They're relative to the standard specs but not exact.  Most I've seen have fallen within 1.5 degrees either direction of standard but some even moreso than that.  That's all dependent on manufacturer's allowed tolerance.  So you hit a 7 iron that is exactly on standard.  Get a measurement and that's where you go.  So Joe Schmoe in the factory is building them and slaps a set together.  Then you get them to your big box and the guy at the club desk (that was in the shoe department 2 weeks ago) takes your measurement from the stock demo 7 iron and bends every club 2 degrees up from where they are.  He doesn't check standards he just bends them 2 degrees from where they are.  Okay, your 6 iron was 1.5 degrees flat from the manufacturer and he bends it 2 degrees.  That's half a degree up in actuality from where the measurement that was taken from the single club you hit off the demo rack measured where you are.  My club guy I use to have mine bent is very good and very knowledgable and is also very meticulous.  He takes my clubs I bring in that I build or rebuild (I do all my own builds but don't have a loft/lie machine) and measures their lie angles individually.  I have the tape and markings still on them.  He bends the first and I hit it, checking the new lie angle again.  While I'm hitting that, he bends all of them from their STOCK angles they're supposed to be at (he records every measurement of lie angle and finds the chart for their stock angle) and bends them all to what the first iron is up from the exact stock lie angle.  They're generally in 1/2 degree increments through the set, so say a club is at 63* the next in progression is 63.5, etc... Once I come back with the new markings we check the club again and he adjusts again if necessary or if not, leaves it be.  I then hit ALL the clubs and we check them ALL again with the new markings. We adjust every club in the set till they're all identical in markings on both the sole and face and are correct.  Meticulous?  Absolutely, but the irons through the set are proper. He's gone from there now after he got his degree and took a job at a big manufacturer so I'm going to have to expedite the purchase of the loft/lie machine now... Especially since it's the upcoming iron hoing season for me.

 

 

By the way, most graphite manufacturers do some sort of spining or NBP of their shafts at a minimum.  How does one know you say?  Look at the butt of an uncut graphite shaft new from a manufacturer or dealer.  Just about every one of them will have one of two things present on it.  You'll see either a notch approximately 1/8" deep or a grease pen marking of some sort that is sometimes prevalent and sometimes faint.  What are their purpose?  That's for whichever process they use and is done prior to painting.  ALL of the major shaft OEM's will have one of the two markings on it or every one I've ever seen in the hundreds of builds I've done have them.  They spine or FLO them prior to painting so that the graphics will be in an orientation relative to one or the other.  

 

​

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info Rookie. My fitter checked and adjusted the lofts/lies after receiving them from Mizuno because of the tolerance issue that most manufacturers have. Once it warms up and I can get to the range I'll grab some electrical tape as well as the sharpie method just to satisfy my own curiosities.

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with the Indian vs arrow argument. Unless it's waaaay off, we amateurs aren't going to gain much from it. Better spent on lessons or GI equipment.

There is no spoon.

WITB
TaylorMade M3
Callaway Diablo 15°
Callaway Diablo 18°
Callaway Steelhead XR Pro 4-W
Mizuno TP-4 50, 54, 58
TaylorMade Rossa Monza Spyder

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts.

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

How much does it cost to have a set of irons spine aligned?

 

And is the 10 round quote fact or your theory? If you have tighter shot dispersion and better averages in distance control, why would you not improve?

 

I have never had any irons that have been "pured" but I will have a set that way in the next couple of weeks. I will test my consistency and see how they compare.

"You have an army, we have a HULK"-Tony Stark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this is the case, why would the CEO of Paderson shafts tell me where to align the wall of the shaft upon installation? Mind you he did say there wouldn't be a huge difference but he said for best results, put so and so facing downward.

I would listen to the Paderson CEO who designed the shaft himself and not listen to some of the other opinions on here. Anytime you can go with a manufacturer recommendation and it doesn't cost any extra money, that's the way to go. And the Paderson CEO has given you guidance based off of most likely many many hours of r&d.

 

I would tell you to listen to him, and hope your playing partners don't listen. Give yourself the best advantage possible

"You have an army, we have a HULK"-Tony Stark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I personally, hit every club off of a lie board with sole tape (I use electrical tape as it marks just fine and costs pennies compared to lie angle tape)

​

Electrical tape...why didn't I think of that. Awesome idea!

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering......does it make a difference to have the shafts spine aligned, then use the various adjustments that come with the club (8.5 - 11.5 degrees)?  How does the club adjustment change the spine alignment?

Driver: image.png.6ba1c8a254ad57aa05e527b74c2e04ba.png0311 XF 10.5* w/Project X Cypher 40 gram Senior shaft or 0811 XF 12* w/Evenflo Riptide CB Senior shaft

Fairways:  image.png.80321f01fc46450b6f428c7daf7b3471.png0211 5W & 7W w/ Evenflo Riptide CB  regular shaft and Tour Edge E521 9W w/Fubuki HD50 regular shaft

Hybrid: None in bag at the moment

IronsTitleist T300 5-PW w/Fubuki MV Senior graphite shafts w/Golf Pride Tour

Wedges: Edison forged 49*, 53* and 57* wedges with KB PGI Senior shafts(80 grm).

Putter: 33” Evnroll ER6R or  ER2 or Bellum Winmore Model 707,   or Nike Method Core Drone  w/Evnroll Gravity Grip

Bag: Vice cart bag(Black/Lime). 

Ball: Snell MTB Prime X, Maxfli Tour/S/X CG, Titleist Pro V1x or Titleist TruFeel

Using Shot Scope X5 and Pinned Rangefinder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering......does it make a difference to have the shafts spine aligned, then use the various adjustments that come with the club (8.5 - 11.5 degrees)?  How does the club adjustment change the spine alignment?

Yes, it makes a difference.  Basically it negates the spine alignment.  Ideally you would experiment and find your ideal setting with the club, then reinstall the adapter to be spine aligned in that setting. 

 

If you are constantly going to tinker with the loft then it serves no purpose to spine align it.

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...