Jump to content
Undershooter

How to know if shafts are spined?

Recommended Posts

Guys,

I am new to the spine, nbp, puring stuff. I am familiar with the differences between steel and graphite. :) However, I remember when graphite shafts first came out and the layering process wasn't all that consistent and spining was critical. Steel had issues too. However, I read someplace recently that the process for making shafts, both steel and graphite, has made significant improvements that basically rendered spining, puring unnecessary. I say this for good, high quality shafts. I imagine that el cheapo shafts would still benefit from spining, but why??

 

So, my question is: "is spining, or puring, a waste of money given the quality of shafts today? I wish I could remember where I read this.

 

If it's not a waste of money, what is the benefit, and will I notice any difference at my meager swing speed? That's two questions, sorry. :)

 

A good question.

All shafts have their own character to some extent. How that is perceived by the player is open to interpretation, but if you cannot identify one "pured" shaft from another in a double blind test then there is little point is wasting your time and money in the process.

Spining an individual club is one thing, but spinning an iron set is quite another. It can be argued that the frequency anomaly or NBP is not going to make much difference when the ball is several yards away from the club face after it has been struck. Any oscillation orientation is only valid if the club also oscillates in multiple directions during the swing (which of course it doesn't!).

In a set of iron however, with typical descending lengths and head weights through the set, the anomalies become more apparent (to those that perceive them) from club to club. Sometimes a 6-iron for example may feel somewhat stiffer or feel harsher than the 7-iron in the set - that is a classic example of mis-aligned shafts. In this case, it is more beneficial to the player to build a set of irons where the frequency can be controlled to provide a fluid feel through the set and not make the resulting flex markedly different from each club in the set. This gives greater control and predictable yardage gapping for the better player - something perhaps an individual club like a fairway wood or driver is not so critical or desirable.

Each individual will have differing perception levels - some players can detect minute differences in flex swingweight, length and lie, whereas other can't. It is true that higher swing speeds will make these traits more apparent, but not necessarily for each individual. But slower swing speeds in general have a tendency to make subtle differences in flex, swingweight and feel less apparent. 

How this translates into your own game and equipment is up to you. What I would say is that on some sets, the difference between spined and not spined is night and day - and even the most novice golfer could detect the difference.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks jaskanski! Great explanation. I feel like I learned something today and it's only 7am! I guess I can go play now.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spine and Pure isn't relevant. It's a nice concept, but it's only psychological. 

 

Manufacturers and club technicians from the big brands have tried to measure the differences. It's not possible. Only the people who believe in spine and pure seem to be able to measure and feel the differences. 

 

This business is basically saying that Aldila, UST, PX, Matrix +++ are building shafts that are so terrible that they need their full treatment before use. It's a nice way for them to make money, but nothing more than that. 

 

If your 6i feels harsher or stiffer than your 7i, it's probably because your better at hitting your shorter irons.

 

I don't get the concept of yes for spine in iron sets, and just maybe in a driver or fw. What does spine actually do? Does it improve accurary? If yes, why wouldn't you want that in your driver?

 

The only reason why a spined iron set has good gaps between clubs is that this type of players most likely also checks his loft and lie. It's like getting a bigger motor for your boat and painting it green - and giving the new colour the credit for higher speed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me go grab some popcorn quick, this could get good.

 

You may want to grab a beer while you're at it. 

Me - I'm going to get me some green paint.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a take from a 9-12 handicapper. Unless you are a 2 or + handicapper, I seriously doubt that all this voodoo spine and pure stuff will matter to you at all.... if then. Will it take a stroke off of your score? I doubt it. It might matter to you if you are really that sensitive to your equipment and how it feels. I know I'm not that perceptive when it comes the feel of how the shaft bends in any certain club!

 

I use KBS Tour Stiff in my irons. I love them..... and really doubt that I would notice one iota of difference in feel or performance if spent the money to this spine/pure thing done. Just my .02 on it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a take from a 9-12 handicapper. Unless you are a 2 or + handicapper, I seriously doubt that all this voodoo spine and pure stuff will matter to you at all.... if then. Will it take a stroke off of your score? I doubt it. It might matter to you if you are really that sensitive to your equipment and how it feels. I know I'm not that perceptive when it comes the feel of how the shaft bends in any certain club!

 

I use KBS Tour Stiff in my irons. I love them..... and really doubt that I would notice one iota of difference in feel or performance if I spent the money to have this spine/pure thing done. Just my .02 on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! I go golfing for the day and missed this discussion. I'm still trying to remember where I saw the article about spining; I'll keep looking. It seemed that the article said something like you had to spine or pure in the old days; it really affected the gaps between clubs. With today's shafts being so good, the gapping is a non-issue. However, I suppose if you notice a gapping problem, a shaft could be defective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Popping in to give my 2 cents.  The fitter I go to locally has a SST PURE machine.  I've seen him pure shafts with the machine and I can say the technology is sound and the machine works.  He did one of the new KBS wedge shafts.  Right of out the box from KBS.  When put in the machine there was a definite wobble to the shaft as it was rotating, it goes through and finds the most stable position and marks the shaft, then the fitter knows which way to orientate the head.  I've seen enough independent test results to be a believer that the process works and a robot will get better dispersion with the process done than without it.

 

That said I don't think my swing is consistent enough that I would notice a difference on the course.  Of all the things going on when I hit a golf ball not having my shafts pured is not the one that is going to keep me from hitting the green.  If I was a tour pro it might be a different story, but for the average golfer I don't think you will see a measurable difference between sets.  Plus at $25 a shaft for the sst pure machine that's an extra $325 to have your whole set done.  For me the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

 

What I'd really like to see is a 5-10 handicap take two perfectly fit and matching clubs to a launch monitor.  One has a shaft pured and the other doesn't and see what the numbers are.  That would mean much more to me than robot testing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't say I FEEL a difference with my irons when SST Pured or Spined/Flo'd.

However, isn't that the point entirely? So all your clubs feel the same through the set? That's precisely why I do it.

By comparison I have had an iron or two in a set before that I'm quite certain I was fighting the shaft orientation. The consistency for those clubs was hard to come by.

And considering my best career rounds have come with SST Pured irons in the bag, that was a nice ROI. If I get a set re-shafted, I never skip it. It's worth it to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Titleist says that they do not recommend having your clubs PURE'D.  This is due to testing with pros and high level amateurs and not being able to measure any performance difference.

 

Got this from the Titleist Forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Titleist says that they do not recommend having your clubs PURE'D.  This is due to testing with pros and high level amateurs and not being able to measure any performance difference.

 

Got this from the Titleist Forum.

Would they do it for free if it did prove to be beneficial? No. And why would they want you to go to independent clubfitters rather than their retail network? They probably used weight sorted shafts at minimum if they were tour players' clubs. They have a financial dog in this fight. I had my AP2's SST Pured and shot my career best.

I love irony! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys,

I am new to the spine, nbp, puring stuff. I am familiar with the differences between steel and graphite. :) However, I remember when graphite shafts first came out and the layering process wasn't all that consistent and spining was critical. Steel had issues too. However, I read someplace recently that the process for making shafts, both steel and graphite, has made significant improvements that basically rendered spining, puring unnecessary. I say this for good, high quality shafts. I imagine that el cheapo shafts would still benefit from spining, but why??

 

So, my question is: "is spining, or puring, a waste of money given the quality of shafts today? I wish I could remember where I read this.

 

If it's not a waste of money, what is the benefit, and will I notice any difference at my meager swing speed? That's two questions, sorry. :)

No it's not a waste of money or time. Being as I've spoken with the creator of the pure system that no longer works there but also refined that system 2 more times and now uses it in his personal shaft company (as well as when he was at Advanced Shaft Dynamics with the peaked system), it works. He has data proving it works and I've seen some of it. I posted a lot of information he's shared with me on here before. I speak with him more than as a customer as well as we've talked about many things not even pertaining to golf. I believe in his research and the science behind it. He works with the best in the world for a reason.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No OEM (Titleist included) is going to stand on record and state their products could probably do with a bit of tweaking to get the best out of them. This would be like admitting their product is either flawed or inferior. The same goes for shaft manufacturers.

True enough, their products are made to the best quality - but it is at a level of acceptable tolerance too that the consumer is willing to pay. That means most OEM sets are not blueprinted to their exact specs on paper. Why not? Well if they were, the cost would double. Every head, shaft and grip would need to be weight sorted and assembled to a meticulous level that mass production simply does not allow.

So what you have is a bit of a compromise between what they find acceptable in terms of quality control and what you are willing to pay. These two parameters may not be the same!

So fast forward to what makes a blueprinted set better?

A lot has been made getting correct lofts and lies to your iron set (which is true) but these values are always dialled in last. Whilst most OEM's may have a +/- tolerance of 1 degree or so on loft and lie, these specs are only valid if the shaft length and flex are constant too. 

For instance, if you have two identical heads with identical lofts and identical lengths, the distance each club hits would be different if the flexes are not the same. The stiffer shaft would impart less spin with a lower trajectory and the opposite would be true for the softer shaft. Now imagine the problems this makes on a progressive length and lofted iron set - yardage gapping not so accurate now if the flex cannot be maintained as accurately is it?

This is basically the reason why sets are spined and blueprinted for the golfers who have the game to take advantage of these nuances. Dynamic loft and toe droop are just two of the factors that make proper frequency and flex checking and loft and lie checking afterwards a must. You can't have one without the other really. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No OEM (Titleist included) is going to stand on record and state their products could probably do with a bit of tweaking to get the best out of them. This would be like admitting their product is either flawed or inferior. The same goes for shaft manufacturers.

True enough, their products are made to the best quality - but it is at a level of acceptable tolerance too that the consumer is willing to pay. That means most OEM sets are not blueprinted to their exact specs on paper. Why not? Well if they were, the cost would double. Every head, shaft and grip would need to be weight sorted and assembled to a meticulous level that mass production simply does not allow.

So what you have is a bit of a compromise between what they find acceptable in terms of quality control and what you are willing to pay. These two parameters may not be the same!

So fast forward to what makes a blueprinted set better?

A lot has been made getting correct lofts and lies to your iron set (which is true) but these values are always dialled in last. Whilst most OEM's may have a +/- tolerance of 1 degree or so on loft and lie, these specs are only valid if the shaft length and flex are constant too.

For instance, if you have two identical heads with identical lofts and identical lengths, the distance each club hits would be different if the flexes are not the same. The stiffer shaft would impart less spin with a lower trajectory and the opposite would be true for the softer shaft. Now imagine the problems this makes on a progressive length and lofted iron set - yardage gapping not so accurate now if the flex cannot be maintained as accurately is it?

This is basically the reason why sets are spined and blueprinted for the golfers who have the game to take advantage of these nuances. Dynamic loft and toe droop are just two of the factors that make proper frequency and flex checking and loft and lie checking afterwards a must. You can't have one without the other really.

 

I've got a question for Jas. Most of what you're saying is way over my head and probably not as pertinent to someone with my HCP. However, I just got fitted for and received a new set of MP-54s with Nippon N.S. Pro 1150 shafts. My fitter received the heads and shafts separately and checked/adjusted the lofts/lies using his own machine. Looking at them right now, all of the silk screens on the shafts are facing up at address so that would mean the shafts haven't been pured. Is that correct?

 

On a second point, I was fitted for lie using a 7-iron Mizuno lie angle head/lie board. Having only the 5-9, is that sufficient or should I be hitting each iron off a lie board to determine the lie of each iron?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a question for Jas. Most of what you're saying is way over my head and probably not as pertinent to someone with my HCP. However, I just got fitted for and received a new set of MP-54s with Nippon N.S. Pro 1150 shafts. My fitter received the heads and shafts separately and checked/adjusted the lofts/lies using his own machine. Looking at them right now, all of the silk screens on the shafts are facing up at address so that would mean the shafts haven't been pured. Is that correct?

 

On a second point, I was fitted for lie using a 7-iron Mizuno lie angle head/lie board. Having only the 5-9, is that sufficient or should I be hitting each iron off a lie board to determine the lie of each iron?

 

The best way to answer the question would be with another question or two:

How do you feel about the irons? 

Do they give the feel and control you want from club to club?

Distance and trajectory OK?

If your answers are yes, then you need not look any further. If your answer is no, then you might need to figure out what is the best way to solve your issues. 

No disrespect, but for most 15 handicappers, the issue often lies with the indian rather than the arrow and a quick lesson with the pro can sort out any underlying swing flaws. 

Oddly enough, I use 1150 GH's myself - and no, not all my silk screen labels are facing the same way. That probably means yours aren't aligned either, but without knowing if you specifically asked your fitter for this service, it doesn't mean you've been ripped off. The process of aligning is labour intensive and no fitter offers their work for free (not me anyway lol!). Lie boards have their uses too, but they sometimes give the wrong picture to the untrained eye. Again, without knowing too much about your fitter or how satisfied you are with your clubs, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to immediately dismantle  your set and start from scratch.

Like I said, the whole point of alignment (i don't like to refer to the Pure process) is for those that have the ability to discern it's attributes. That doesn't mean is like the Emperors clothes, it simply means it's your money and your choice. But for some sets and some shafts, the difference is quite remarkable.

Sorry if that seems like a bit of a cop out answer. I'm not here to extol the virtues of the Pure process and it's claims for any shaft, I'm only here to share my thoughts on the advantages of shaft alignment for iron sets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate it. I'm really just trying to get a better understanding of things. I've only been playing for 3 years so I'm behind the 8-ball in terms of knowledge when it comes to stuff like this. I didn't ask to have the shafts aligned nor am I sure if he even offers it. I didn't even know what it was until this thread popped up. Haven't had a chance to hit the irons yet due to weather.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok...... is it worth spending the money on if you are barely a single digit HC? At what point or ability would this come into play as making a difference? I just can't see where a guy like me, at my skill level would notice any improvement because I spent the money to have my shafts pured. Am I full of s**t?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok...... is it worth spending the money on if you are barely a single digit HC? At what point or ability would this come into play as making a difference? I just can't see where a guy like me, at my skill level would notice any improvement because I spent the money to have my shafts pured. Am I full of s**t?

I think it makes is worth it if you can tell the difference. If you can't then its not worth it. If you hit a lot of shots that you know are supposed to go a certain number and don't and you can't explain why then it May be worth it to you. But if you can chalk it up to your swing because it may have varied and your not sure if it did. Or your ball contact may not have been perfect but you can't tell if it was then maybe it wouldn't be worth it to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Announcements

×
×
  • Create New...