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How to know if shafts are spined?

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Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts. 

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

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Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts. 

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

If this is the case, why would the CEO of Paderson shafts tell me where to align the wall of the shaft upon installation? Mind you he did say there wouldn't be a huge difference but he said for best results, put so and so facing downward.
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Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts.

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

Stick an iron shaft in a bearing type finder. You can see and especially feel a fairly drastic difference in flex as you rotate it in a loaded condition. That's real, not imagined.

 

Is having the shafts aligned in the heads in the same direction going to knock several shots off your game? Doubtful. But if they are reacting more consistently through impact as a result, it will tighten up dispersion. Can anyone quantify how much is due to the shaft and how much to the swing? Probably not. But doing the extra work leaves you with one less variable to consider.

 

Robot testing has proven a tighter dispersion with aligned shafts. Quantifying that with a person swinging is probably not possible due to variations from swing to swing, but that doesn't mean it has no effect.

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Ok...... is it worth spending the money on if you are barely a single digit HC? At what point or ability would this come into play as making a difference? I just can't see where a guy like me, at my skill level would notice any improvement because I spent the money to have my shafts pured. Am I full of s**t?

If you've never had a set where at least one club is a little "off" from the factory, or just can't feel it, then you probably would never think of doing it. I've noticed the consistency of sets that I have had it done to, and have had a few wonky shafts over the years that lead me to investigate it. I believe in it. It's not voodoo. If we can't measure a steel shaft for consistency in this day and age, I'm not letting anyone operate on me with a laser guided by a robot. :blink: :D

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If you've never had a set where at least one club is a little "off" from the factory, or just can't feel it, then you probably would never think of doing it. I've noticed the consistency of sets that I have had it done to, and have had a few wonky shafts over the years that lead me to investigate it. I believe in it. It's not voodoo. If we can't measure a steel shaft for consistency in this day and age, I'm not letting anyone operate on me with a laser guided by a robot. :blink: :D

 

I am sure there are some shafts that are just a little different from others from shaft manufacturers that maybe someone with extreme feel could tell the difference.  I am also sure that these manufacturers are not going to the expense to make every shaft perfect.  However, I find it very unlikely that with today's manufacturing processes and the competition in the shaft market, manufacturers would produce shafts that vary in a set enough to make a big difference.  A few years ago that was probably the case.  But today there is a lot of competition and their reputations are on the line, and they want to be the best shaft option for your game.  Why would they produce shafts that you have to spend $20 each to make right?  Makes no business sense.

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I am sure there are some shafts that are just a little different from others from shaft manufacturers that maybe someone with extreme feel could tell the difference.  I am also sure that these manufacturers are not going to the expense to make every shaft perfect.  However, I find it very unlikely that with today's manufacturing processes and the competition in the shaft market, manufacturers would produce shafts that vary in a set enough to make a big difference.  A few years ago that was probably the case.  But today there is a lot of competition and their reputations are on the line, and they want to be the best shaft option for your game.  Why would they produce shafts that you have to spend $20 each to make right?  Makes no business sense.

Because few golfers are that particular, and all the better if the consumer then takes on any additional expense in doing so. Makes all the biz sense in the world. Low demand for it, higher profits for the shaft co's without it.

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Anyone interested in reading up on spines, this is the place. http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines.php

 

 

Very interesting read if you like technical, but bottom line, Dave says:

 

... if the spine is small enough, it isn't worth aligning the shaft; there is nothing measurable to be gained.

 

I go out of my way to order shaft models that I know to have negligible spine -- then I just don't worry about aligning. My personal belief is that the threshold of negligibility is probably 3-5cpm, and I treat a spine of less than 3cpm as something I can ignore.

 

Most steel shafts and filament wound graphite shafts have almost no spine at all

 

What I find interesting is that this article was published in 2008 and there are no mention of spine alignment much after 2009.  So back 8 years ago, spine was an issue for crappy shafts but not the better shafts, and shafts have improved greatly since then.  Seems to support the Titleist position, and the only reason anyone should get shafts pured is if they are convinced they can't play their best without it!

 

I really liked his opening paragraph on How much spine is "negligible"?   

There are still a few clubmakers around who believe that there is no such thing as a negligible spine. To them, if you can find a spine, it is important to align it. And if you can't find the spine, then you're in big trouble -- because you know it's there and you won't be able to align it. I've watched these guys FLOing a shaft and muttering curses when it refuses to wobble in any orientation.

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10 cpm is roughly a full flex - so 3cpm is roughly equivalent to a hard step or soft step in either direction.

Some sets that I've seen unaligned have been as much as 13cpm between clubs - even someone wearing boxing gloves could probably tell the difference on that.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want a set of clubs with a random soft step or hard step thrown in somewhere where you least expect it either. FLOing is nothing without a cpm to reference against - otherwise it is just as easy to FLO a set with huge cpm gaps between clubs - which should be consistent for the flex to length progression to work. 

It's not snake oil or rocket science either - and it certainly doesn't need smoke and mirrors to show a discernible difference on sets which could be glaringly obvious.

Each to their own I guess, because you cannot really quantify "feel" to any individual. Specs and numbers are certainly much easier.

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Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts. 

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

 

Actually, it has been measured, by a person that developed SST and has refined it independently with his own product and does it free of charge on EVERY shaft he sells bearing his own name.  He has data proving it works as well.  I've seen it and shared some of it here as well.

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Actually, it has been measured, by a person that developed SST and has refined it independently with his own product and does it free of charge on EVERY shaft he sells bearing his own name.  He has data proving it works as well.  I've seen it and shared some of it here as well.

"Drops the Mic and walks away" lol

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I've got a question for Jas. Most of what you're saying is way over my head and probably not as pertinent to someone with my HCP. However, I just got fitted for and received a new set of MP-54s with Nippon N.S. Pro 1150 shafts. My fitter received the heads and shafts separately and checked/adjusted the lofts/lies using his own machine. Looking at them right now, all of the silk screens on the shafts are facing up at address so that would mean the shafts haven't been pured. Is that correct?

 

On a second point, I was fitted for lie using a 7-iron Mizuno lie angle head/lie board. Having only the 5-9, is that sufficient or should I be hitting each iron off a lie board to determine the lie of each iron?

To answer your second point, I personally, hit every club off of a lie board with sole tape (I use electrical tape as it marks just fine and costs pennies compared to lie angle tape) and mark every ball with lines set parallel to the ground/hitting surface.  Why do both?  The sole tape lets me see the contact point on the sole.  The mark on the ball will transfer to the face of the iron and you will see how the clubface is approaching the ball and combined both give you indication on appropriate bending.  Why every iron?  Because of tolerances manufacturers use.  Contrary to the belief of those that have never tested it, standard specs are just that, standard but not definite.  What do I mean by that?  Multiple things, not all manufacturers standard is the same for one, there's no set standard.  Two?  Tolerance.  They're relative to the standard specs but not exact.  Most I've seen have fallen within 1.5 degrees either direction of standard but some even moreso than that.  That's all dependent on manufacturer's allowed tolerance.  So you hit a 7 iron that is exactly on standard.  Get a measurement and that's where you go.  So Joe Schmoe in the factory is building them and slaps a set together.  Then you get them to your big box and the guy at the club desk (that was in the shoe department 2 weeks ago) takes your measurement from the stock demo 7 iron and bends every club 2 degrees up from where they are.  He doesn't check standards he just bends them 2 degrees from where they are.  Okay, your 6 iron was 1.5 degrees flat from the manufacturer and he bends it 2 degrees.  That's half a degree up in actuality from where the measurement that was taken from the single club you hit off the demo rack measured where you are.  My club guy I use to have mine bent is very good and very knowledgable and is also very meticulous.  He takes my clubs I bring in that I build or rebuild (I do all my own builds but don't have a loft/lie machine) and measures their lie angles individually.  I have the tape and markings still on them.  He bends the first and I hit it, checking the new lie angle again.  While I'm hitting that, he bends all of them from their STOCK angles they're supposed to be at (he records every measurement of lie angle and finds the chart for their stock angle) and bends them all to what the first iron is up from the exact stock lie angle.  They're generally in 1/2 degree increments through the set, so say a club is at 63* the next in progression is 63.5, etc... Once I come back with the new markings we check the club again and he adjusts again if necessary or if not, leaves it be.  I then hit ALL the clubs and we check them ALL again with the new markings. We adjust every club in the set till they're all identical in markings on both the sole and face and are correct.  Meticulous?  Absolutely, but the irons through the set are proper. He's gone from there now after he got his degree and took a job at a big manufacturer so I'm going to have to expedite the purchase of the loft/lie machine now... Especially since it's the upcoming iron hoing season for me.

 

 

By the way, most graphite manufacturers do some sort of spining or NBP of their shafts at a minimum.  How does one know you say?  Look at the butt of an uncut graphite shaft new from a manufacturer or dealer.  Just about every one of them will have one of two things present on it.  You'll see either a notch approximately 1/8" deep or a grease pen marking of some sort that is sometimes prevalent and sometimes faint.  What are their purpose?  That's for whichever process they use and is done prior to painting.  ALL of the major shaft OEM's will have one of the two markings on it or every one I've ever seen in the hundreds of builds I've done have them.  They spine or FLO them prior to painting so that the graphics will be in an orientation relative to one or the other.  

 

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Thanks for the info Rookie. My fitter checked and adjusted the lofts/lies after receiving them from Mizuno because of the tolerance issue that most manufacturers have. Once it warms up and I can get to the range I'll grab some electrical tape as well as the sharpie method just to satisfy my own curiosities.

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I'm with the Indian vs arrow argument. Unless it's waaaay off, we amateurs aren't going to gain much from it. Better spent on lessons or GI equipment.

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Proof in this case seems to be that the people who use these methods - and make money selling them - can measure that they work. Invent the process - and the method that proves it.

 

The fact that professionals and highly skilled club builders can't measure them isn't given any value. As long as the guys making money are able to measure the effect, it seems we're good. If that doesn't stop you spending your money - please go ahead.

 

It's actually brilliant. If I claim that you need to be an excellent golfer with consistent strikes to notice difference, believers have an answer; You're not striking the ball well because your shafts haven't been pured/spined.

 

If you get it done and still don't strike the ball as well as you hoped; Your swing is the problem, but at least your shafts are as good as they can be.

 

We'll never be able to measure it, but there's not a single golfer in the world who would have a lower average score on 10 rounds with pured/spined shafts.

 

Playing conditions, gear effect and technique trumps this snake oil stuff.

How much does it cost to have a set of irons spine aligned?

 

And is the 10 round quote fact or your theory? If you have tighter shot dispersion and better averages in distance control, why would you not improve?

 

I have never had any irons that have been "pured" but I will have a set that way in the next couple of weeks. I will test my consistency and see how they compare.

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If this is the case, why would the CEO of Paderson shafts tell me where to align the wall of the shaft upon installation? Mind you he did say there wouldn't be a huge difference but he said for best results, put so and so facing downward.

I would listen to the Paderson CEO who designed the shaft himself and not listen to some of the other opinions on here. Anytime you can go with a manufacturer recommendation and it doesn't cost any extra money, that's the way to go. And the Paderson CEO has given you guidance based off of most likely many many hours of r&d.

 

I would tell you to listen to him, and hope your playing partners don't listen. Give yourself the best advantage possible

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I personally, hit every club off of a lie board with sole tape (I use electrical tape as it marks just fine and costs pennies compared to lie angle tape)

​

Electrical tape...why didn't I think of that. Awesome idea!

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I have a Golfsmith lie board that leaves a little plastic residue on the sole that can be rubbed off. No tape needed and leaves a perfect mark. Don't more people have that?

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Just wondering......does it make a difference to have the shafts spine aligned, then use the various adjustments that come with the club (8.5 - 11.5 degrees)?  How does the club adjustment change the spine alignment?

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Just wondering......does it make a difference to have the shafts spine aligned, then use the various adjustments that come with the club (8.5 - 11.5 degrees)?  How does the club adjustment change the spine alignment?

Yes, it makes a difference.  Basically it negates the spine alignment.  Ideally you would experiment and find your ideal setting with the club, then reinstall the adapter to be spine aligned in that setting. 

 

If you are constantly going to tinker with the loft then it serves no purpose to spine align it.

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