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What I've noticed most often is that the good golfer will consciously make a swing change if he doesn't like the ball flight of the driver you have given him. I play a 12* R11s. Love it. When I hit something else that is lower lofted, I will absolutely change the AoA to make the ballflight look better to my eye. It's not the right thing to do. It is actually harmful to the fit. But almost every 2 hdcp or better that I fit does it.

 

When we're testing, the lower handicap golfers are a blessing and a curse. They're nice to have because they're efficient (12 shots to get 10 with most clubs), but you have to stay on top of them to keep their egos from introducing skew.

 

One of the first days, we had a 4.something HCP in...he's 2/3 of the way through the session...hitting nothing but 2 yard butter cuts all morning and then suddenly decides he wants to start drawing the ball. Took me 10 minutes to get him to understand that we were looking for consistency of process and not anybody's personal quest for 3 more yards.

 

Of course, I also have a +1 collegiate golfer who I just watched pound 63 shots in a session where the minimum number of shots would have been 60. The 3 I threw out would have been keepers for just about all of us.

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I never paid much attention to these big name reviews as I assume there is a money influence. But it's interesting that you noticed this.

Launch monitors. Everyone thinks the lower the spin, the better, so they've created such drivers in response.   It's kind of like government crash test ratings for vehicles. They build the vehicles

I'm not going to push Silver and Black on this one - I get where he's coming from - it's very frustrating to get stuck behind folks who exhibit poor etiquette.   If it's hoops I want the guy on my t

What I've noticed most often is that the good golfer will consciously make a swing change if he doesn't like the ball flight of the driver you have given him. I play a 12* R11s. Love it. When I hit something else that is lower lofted, I will absolutely change the AoA to make the ballflight look better to my eye. It's not the right thing to do. It is actually harmful to the fit. But almost every 2 hdcp or better that I fit does it.

I'm not the "good golfer" you're referring to, but have discussed with my fitter and others that have noticed it, that I always try to "adjust my swing" to whatever club is in my hands at the time.

 

It can make it difficult to really determine what the best fit really is...

What's In The Bag

Driver :titelist-small:

Titleist 913 D2 10.5* (set to 9.75* / Neutral) 46" Paderson KINETIXX Kevlar Green - R

Fairway Wood

Tom Wishon 949 MC 16.5* Fujikura Speeder 569-A

Hybrid  :cleveland-small: Hibore 22* Aldila VS Proto Blue

Irons  :ping-small: G series 5-P

Wedges :ping-small:Glide 54* SS / 60* TS - SCOR 53*

Putter     :nike-small: Nike Method 001 / P2 Reflex grip 35"

Ball

Master Grip Tour C4

Bag

Datrek DG Lite  

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What I've noticed most often is that the good golfer will consciously make a swing change if he doesn't like the ball flight of the driver you have given him. I play a 12* R11s. Love it. When I hit something else that is lower lofted, I will absolutely change the AoA to make the ballflight look better to my eye. It's not the right thing to do. It is actually harmful to the fit. But almost every 2 hdcp or better that I fit does it.

I'm not the "good golfer" you're referring to, but have discussed with my fitter and others that have noticed it, that I always try to "adjust my swing" to whatever club is in my hands at the time.

 

It can make it difficult to really determine what the best fit really is...

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What's In The Bag

Driver :titelist-small:

Titleist 913 D2 10.5* (set to 9.75* / Neutral) 46" Paderson KINETIXX Kevlar Green - R

Fairway Wood

Tom Wishon 949 MC 16.5* Fujikura Speeder 569-A

Hybrid  :cleveland-small: Hibore 22* Aldila VS Proto Blue

Irons  :ping-small: G series 5-P

Wedges :ping-small:Glide 54* SS / 60* TS - SCOR 53*

Putter     :nike-small: Nike Method 001 / P2 Reflex grip 35"

Ball

Master Grip Tour C4

Bag

Datrek DG Lite  

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I was just looking at this:

testresutls.jpg

 

Tests like this, unless they re-shafted every single one of these to the same specs, are neigh useless.

 

 

I don't know about re-shafting bit. I've personally talked to about 15 different R&D guys (including guys at every major OEM) on the subject, and they all say the same thing...

 

With robot testing the shaft is irrelevant. Change the flex, change the shaft, put in a steel rod (which is what Wishon does) and nothing changes. Robots don't load, unload, torque, etc. the way humans do. I mean stuff like this I suppose is a great marketing tool, but c'mon...at least level the lofts if you're going to do it this way.

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I'm not the "good golfer" you're referring to, but have discussed with my fitter and others that have noticed it, that I always try to "adjust my swing" to whatever club is in my hands at the time.

 

It can make it difficult to really determine what the best fit really is...

I think this is pretty common. I know that if I hit a club and don't like what I'm seeing I'll try to change my delivery so that I like what I'm seeing. More so with eBay or off the rack purchases. I think the important factor in a fitting is recognizing that you're trying to change your delivery and the more difficult task of trying not to.

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Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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I'm not the "good golfer" you're referring to, but have discussed with my fitter and others that have noticed it, that I always try to "adjust my swing" to whatever club is in my hands at the time.

 

It can make it difficult to really determine what the best fit really is...

When I was fitted last year at the kingdom the first thing I told myself was not to look at what they were giving me. Just swing.

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Driver:   :callaway-small: Epic 10.5 set to 9.5 w/ Tour AD-DI 44.5

FW:   :cobra-small: F6 baffler set at 16º

Hybrid:  NONE
Irons:   :taylormade-small:  3i 2014 TP CB  4-PW 2011 TP MC w/ TT S400

Wedges:   :nike-small: 52º :nike-small: 56º  :edel-golf-1: 60 º w/ KBS C-Taper XS Soft-stepped

Putter:   :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne 34 inches Gold dot

 

 

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I don't know about re-shafting bit. I've personally talked to about 15 different R&D guys (including guys at every major OEM) on the subject, and they all say the same thing...

 

With robot testing the shaft is irrelevant. Change the flex, change the shaft, put in a steel rod (which is what Wishon does) and nothing changes. Robots don't load, unload, torque, etc. the way humans do. I mean stuff like this I suppose is a great marketing tool, but c'mon...at least level the lofts if you're going to do it this way.

In this example, the swing speed is 110. Is that with 3W? If so, their head/shaft, when swung by that robot at that speed was longest. I like the idea of testing getting down to very similar specs for a truer comparison of say what a head is capable of. I agree that at least similar lofted heads should be used, and this low/forward cg beta model of TEE's isn't the best apples to apples with some of the others. But marketing is fun.

 

The argument about only testing for .3% of players would be accurate in this instance too; as how many weekend warriors are swinging 110MPH 3w's? Probably about 1%. So for that player/robot, its longest. That's fine.

"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

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Don't know Mr Divots, I'm guessing these numbers were reached using clubs off the rack. It was a robot testing so the hitter wad the same.

DRIVER:                  :mizuno-small:  ST190, 10.5*, Fujikura  Atmos Black Tour Spec 65g, Stiff flex, Golf Pride CP2 Wrap, midsize

HYBRIDS:    :adams-small:    Pro  2 hybrid 16*, Aldila Tour Red 75g, Stiff, Superstroke TX1 Midsize grip 

                        :mizuno-small:           JPX 850 hybrid 19*, UST Proforce V2 85g, Stiff, Superstroke TX1 Midsize grip                                  

IRONS:            :cobra-small:    King Forged Tour 4i-pw, KBS FLT, shafts, stiff,  Superstroke TX1 Midsize grips

WEDGES:        rsz_scor-golf-logo.png        50, 55, 60 degree wedges with Genius 12 stiff flex,   Superstroke TX1 Midsize grips

PUTTER:       :odyssey-small:    O-Works Marksman 33.5", Superstroke 1.0 Flatso grip w/ 50g counter core

BALL:          :bridgestone-small: Tour B X                                                     
                  
BAG:          :Ogio:              Cirrus Golf Bag 
 
Shoes:              Skechers                  Hexgo Control  Shoes

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Exactly what is a good golfer? I think I'm an above average golfer in scoring. I usually score anywhere from mid 80's to high 70's . Good golfers don't necessarily have to shoot low scores... do they?

Yes they do, the person who shoots the lowest scores is the best golfer. There are several categories within the score that one may be better or worse at, ball striking, distance, accuracy, putting, etc. but the lower the scores the better the golfer. :)

 

Back to something that Craig and T were discussing I'm in that camp. If you give me a driver I will try and make it fit my eye and can normally do so after a while. I want high draws and I will get them by golly. I do think that's true of all better players, what we do has worked and we are very reluctant to change even if we say we are willing to, even if we need to in order to get better for that matter.

 

@MtTheoo my best fitting ever was at the tour performance center. I was suited up like for an EKG, given a club (everyone ther gets the same drone) to hit into a screen. I couldn't even see where the ball was impacting the screen honestly. I saw no numbers, nothing really so there was no adjusting to skew numbers. I know we threw one shot out but other than that the info that was spit out at the end accurately reflected my swing, that day. From there I had a recommended club in hand on the range. I tried to follow your policy but unless you are blind folding me I'm going after the high draw. Here's the sad reality of that. My longer shots generally speaking are lower and more piercing than what my eye envisions!

Ping G410 - turned down to11.25 degrees, neutral setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

SCOR 52,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Currently testing Edison wedges to replace SCORS that are wearing out. Also auditions for the 14th spot in the bag.  Current possibilities are a Ping 26 degree hybrid - duplicates the 9 wood or 5 iron but would be used almost exclusively for chipping or Tour Exotics 3 wood simply because you can carry 14 clubs and I might occasionally hit it in certain unusual wind conditions once every four or five rounds. 

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Don't know Mr Divots, I'm guessing these numbers were reached using clubs off the rack. It was a robot testing so the hitter was the same.

Correct, but that is my point. Each stock shaft will have its own specs, and it will influence the launch and spin rate. The swing speed is pretty high, so that "robot golfer" isn't really doing anything but identifying the longest stock setup at a given high swing speed. When you look at the numbers, some are close on the spin rate, but its obvious the lowest spin setup won this TEE comparison. And the shaft, CG placement, and loft all have influence.

With the same shaft and loft, I'd like to see it repeated and preferably up against other low/forward CG heads to make it a true comparison. I'm saying one can rig the outcome however they like, and they did. It's just marketing. I like to pick it apart a bit.

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"Glute Activator"

 

*Please accept my contributions of participation and intellectual property sharing as substitute for monetary renumeration.

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It's also worth noting that most OTR clubs are not specifically lofted to what they say on the bottom of the club. Without actually digitally measuring the loft for each head, this could account for the difference in spin rate alone - regardless of any other differences.

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Yes they do, the person who shoots the lowest scores is the best golfer. There are several categories within the score that one may be better or worse at, ball striking, distance, accuracy, putting, etc. but the lower the scores the better the golfer.  :)

 

Agreed. The lower the score, the "better" the player/golfer.

 

I consider a "good" golfer one that respects the golf course and those that he is playing with and around. The good golfer replaces his divots. He/she fixes ball marks on the greens. The good golfer isn't a distraction to others while playing. The good golfer doesn't spend 15 minutes looking for a lost ball. The good golfer plays at a reasonable pace instead of getting  belligerent with the people behind him/her for asking him/her to play through.

 

Those things have nothing to do with scoring or who is the more accomplished player. I'll choose to play with a "good" golfer any day over the "better" golfer.... unless that golfer is both.

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I don't know Silver and Black seems like mincing words to me - good golfer refers to playing ability anywhere that I've ever been but perhaps there is a regional difference - I've lived in the Northeast, Midwest, Southeast and played extensively in the Southwest so there are places that I haven't been. 

 

I would hope that any golfer who's played for a time would do the things that you are talking about all of which are in the rule book, one of which is a penalty - you are only allowed 5 minutes to search for a lost ball under the rules. 

 

It's pretty rare that the folks I play with don't fit the profile you are describing regardless of ability.  The exception would be my Middle School golf team but it's my job to teach them those things, I do.  My guess and assumption would be that anyone who takes the time to be a part of a group like MGS does these things.  Certainly everyone that I've played with from this site has.

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Ping G410 - turned down to11.25 degrees, neutral setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

SCOR 52,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Currently testing Edison wedges to replace SCORS that are wearing out. Also auditions for the 14th spot in the bag.  Current possibilities are a Ping 26 degree hybrid - duplicates the 9 wood or 5 iron but would be used almost exclusively for chipping or Tour Exotics 3 wood simply because you can carry 14 clubs and I might occasionally hit it in certain unusual wind conditions once every four or five rounds. 

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I know, Rev. I was just taking a little liberty with the whole thing.  :) I respect all of you guys on here. You are far more knowledgeable than I, about the game. I can only hope to be as "good" as you and others on here, someday. ;)

 

Unfortunately, I do encounter the things I mentioned all too frequently on a number of the courses I play. I never meant to insinuate that anyone from MGS would act that way. If that is how any of you took it, I sincerely apologize to you.

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No didn't take it that way at all -

 

I honestly felt bad for you because I assumed you were encountering it if you were mentioning it.  It happens so infrequently here that I remember the last time I had any of that (beyond my kids and they are excused.)  It was seven years ago and I haven't been back to that course yet.

 

The big issue here for slow play is wrong choice of tees (very frequent this time of the year) and the most frequent etiquette failure is the raking of fairway traps - this is really a pain when I'm playing in league because we are playing it down.  Some of our fairway traps aren't so bad to be in and while I'm not aiming for those I'm not afraid to take them on - It's sad when you get in one, assume you have a shot from the tee only to be in a foot print from 165. :(

Ping G410 - turned down to11.25 degrees, neutral setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

SCOR 52,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Currently testing Edison wedges to replace SCORS that are wearing out. Also auditions for the 14th spot in the bag.  Current possibilities are a Ping 26 degree hybrid - duplicates the 9 wood or 5 iron but would be used almost exclusively for chipping or Tour Exotics 3 wood simply because you can carry 14 clubs and I might occasionally hit it in certain unusual wind conditions once every four or five rounds. 

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I know I am in the minority on this, but here goes.  I view the hot list and other lists (even the MyGolfSpy) as just more information when I decide to get new equipment.  I am not looking at the list to make any final decisions based on other folks.  

 

I don't play the same driver as Rory or Dustin or really care what club they play, because I know my needs are not their needs.  I never understand people buying clubs because Tiger play's it, but maybe that's what they like.  So be it.

 

I think calling Golf Digest's test BS is a disservice.  It is a test.  It is not an ideal test.  As soon as a person see's the brand name, I suspect the testers are "biased" in some way from name and advertising.  This occurs in the MyGolfspy test too.  I would prefer if GD listed each tester's comments and each tester's rankings and let us decide Gold/silver, etc... from the folks that may match our profile, but like I said, it is just info that I can use.  I am looking for some indication of mis-hit friendliness and liveliness, but others may be looking for spin or low spin. 

 

Ultimately, in today's golf world.  One has to try multiple brands and multiple shafts to find a match for them.  I play a high end shaft and I suspect that if I put that shaft in similar heads across the OEM's, I would see comparable performance.  I love the shaft I play that much.  

 

Choosing a driver based on other people's swings would be a flat out mistake.

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I'm calling the listed numbers beside each tester BS Fezzler - not the test - the test is what it is and I agree with you - all of these tests are starting points.  The test is a for what its worth sort of thing - I find little value in these because they give no data what so ever but they do offer some sort of feed back.

 

Here's the BS that I'm calling - I don't buy that there is a group of 40 testers with a 65/35 draw/fade bias when half of the testers are 10 or above.  I would like a bit more information before buying into those numbers - did the numbers come from the test or from the tester hitting his own driver prior to the test or simply as word of mouth from the tester.  To me that's BS given the numbers don't make sense.

 

Now if you want to still say it's not fair to call those numbers BS after my rationale by all means call me out - but call me out for the intent of the thread. :)

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Ping G410 - turned down to11.25 degrees, neutral setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

SCOR 52,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Currently testing Edison wedges to replace SCORS that are wearing out. Also auditions for the 14th spot in the bag.  Current possibilities are a Ping 26 degree hybrid - duplicates the 9 wood or 5 iron but would be used almost exclusively for chipping or Tour Exotics 3 wood simply because you can carry 14 clubs and I might occasionally hit it in certain unusual wind conditions once every four or five rounds. 

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13*/2500 that's the magic number that's actually attainable for most... 17/1700 is next to impossible for about 99% of the average out there.

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In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Happy birthday Rookie, is it today or tomorrow?

Ping G410 - turned down to11.25 degrees, neutral setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

SCOR 52,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Currently testing Edison wedges to replace SCORS that are wearing out. Also auditions for the 14th spot in the bag.  Current possibilities are a Ping 26 degree hybrid - duplicates the 9 wood or 5 iron but would be used almost exclusively for chipping or Tour Exotics 3 wood simply because you can carry 14 clubs and I might occasionally hit it in certain unusual wind conditions once every four or five rounds. 

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