Different balls for different SS?

[RoverRick]

Ok. In light of the ball test posted on the Blog today, and all the comments about Swing Speed and the ball, I have a question.

 

How much difference does this make?

 

My SS is 99-104. BStone and some others make a ball that says less than 105 use this. And more than use that. I have found no real difference in Performance for me. Is it because I am right at the line?

 

How much difference have you noticed?

[The Dansome]

I like this Rick.

 

Titleist offers Pro V1 and Pro V1X but do not promote on SS if you read their site, but based on personal launch, spin and feel. So they're saying find a ball that fits you. Hell there's high quality women players who play the X with slower swing speeds.

 

So if a company states multiple swing speeds, their must be a difference? Frankly I never notice a huge difference except maybe feel.

 

The real question should be: unless stated if a company offers only one model then is intended to work for everyone? That's the assumption I make. If that's the case then you wouldn't noticed a difference if you're 80 or 115mph. Now given most companies at least have a sub 85mph 2-piece and a "tour ball"

 

Now to answer your question I don't notice a big difference, but there's certainly balls I simply prefer.

[hckymeyer]

Personally I feel like putting a SS on balls is kind of like basing the flex of a driver shaft on SS alone.  It just doesn't work for multiple reasons.  I see guys with slower swing speeds than myself get fit into X, I see guys with faster swing speeds than myself or around the same play R.  Balls for me fall into the same category.  You can use swing speed to point in a general direction, but it comes down to what performs best for you.

 

The other side of the coin is marketing.  You have to be able to tell a story to some how get people to buy your stuff.  Swing speed is a story that a lot of golfers understand and it's easy to market.  It's something different than the marketing the #1 ball in golf does so it's an easy way to differentiate yourself and say our system is better.

 

I would guess that certain balls do perform better for faster or slower swing speeds though.  I gotta think the best ball for someone swinging 120mph might not be the same as someone swinging 80mph.  But it depends on what you want out of a ball.  Pure distance, max spin or somewhere in the middle.

[wbealsd]

Personally I feel like putting a SS on balls is kind of like basing the flex of a driver shaft on SS alone.  It just doesn't work for multiple reasons.  I see guys with slower swing speeds than myself get fit into X, I see guys with faster swing speeds than myself or around the same play R.  Balls for me fall into the same category.  You can use swing speed to point in a general direction, but it comes down to what performs best for you.

BINGO!

 

As I'm older and have a slower swing speed, when I started playing golf a few years ago I was told by friends and golf professional's alike that I should play with "A-Flex" shafts and 2-piece balls, so I did.  I even got "club cart" fittings that excluded trying anything outside of those choices.

 

Over the years and with lessons, I made some improvement, but until I purchased my own launch monitor and made some comparisons, then was able to travel to an experienced, independent fitter who actually paid attention to my personal swing characteristics, I didn't find out that those assumptions were wrong for me.

 

Swing speed is an important factor in your equipment choices, but not the only one.  Swing speed is just a starting point.  Golf is a personal sport and "one size fits all," doesn't.

 

As to golf balls, my belief is that a ball that feels and performs best for you in your short game is the best choice.  If there is any difference in distance off the tee between golf balls, I've found it to be negligible.  I've also found the 2-piece balls to be less consistent in performance and quality.

[revkev]

Like the other respondents I've never seen much difference, until we did the Bridgestone test last year.  Those who know me know that I have a huge issue with the mid priced ball offerings, I don't get why you wouldn't go for a cheap two piece ball which will go farther and the difference in spin around the green is not so great - it will feel hard but its half the price - to me there is no value there.

 

In regards to the premium balls if its value there are tons of options including online options that will bring the price down.

 

That leads to Rick's question.  Yes, I have found a difference between the Bridgestone 330 and RX 330 in its latest iteration.  I launch the RX higher which I believe is better for me.  In the end they both go the same distance and spin about the same amount but I prefer the ball flight of the RX.  It's the first time I've ever noticed a difference between balls that are marketed based on swing speed.  I have actually noticed a couple of LPGA players gaming the RX as well so there may be something to it this time around. 

 

Generally speaking I prefer a brand's Pro VIx type ball and that's what I've been fit for when I've gone to ball fittings.  Even the last fitter that I saw said it really comes down to personal preference. 

[fozcycle]

I read the "online ball" comparison review on the Blog... 

Direct To Consumer Golf Balls

.

 

My main question is....why did they exclude the Master Grip C4 Tour and the Kick X TourZ balls?  Both are definitely Pro V1/1x equivalents,Both are 3 pice balls, both are available as "online only" and one even is sold for less than 1/2 price at $20/dozen.

 

[Undershooter]

Personally I feel like putting a SS on balls is kind of like basing the flex of a driver shaft on SS alone.  It just doesn't work for multiple reasons.  I see guys with slower swing speeds than myself get fit into X, I see guys with faster swing speeds than myself or around the same play R.  Balls for me fall into the same category.  You can use swing speed to point in a general direction, but it comes down to what performs best for you.

 

The other side of the coin is marketing.  You have to be able to tell a story to some how get people to buy your stuff.  Swing speed is a story that a lot of golfers understand and it's easy to market.  It's something different than the marketing the #1 ball in golf does so it's an easy way to differentiate yourself and say our system is better.

 

I would guess that certain balls do perform better for faster or slower swing speeds though.  I gotta think the best ball for someone swinging 120mph might not be the same as someone swinging 80mph.  But it depends on what you want out of a ball.  Pure distance, max spin or somewhere in the middle.

Totally agree here! I have a buddy with the same SS as me (120s) but he won't play over a firm stiff. He it's the ball low with very little spin. I on the other hand generally play the hardest X I can find and still hit the ball super high with tons of spin. Everyone is looking for something different and same goes with the ball. I myself want the lowest spinning premium ball I can find on full shots that will still check hard on short pitch and chip shots. Everyone is different and wants different things out of certain equipment.

[revkev]

I think this may go back to a comment from my BS thread as well  - we want a ball/club combo that produces shots that fit our eyes.  I can't see what goes on up on the green so much but I can watch the ball flight - I'm looking for the high draw off the driver and some sort of medium ball flight with a slight draw off the rest.  Around the green I want to see the ball checking so that I can control it and hit a variety of shots - I don't like to have to rely on trajectory (flop shot) to get the ball close - I want to be able to use spin and a variety of different shots with my wedges with the flop being the shot of last resort.

[Kenny B]

BINGO!

 

As I'm older and have a slower swing speed, when I started playing golf a few years ago I was told by friends and golf professional's alike that I should play with "A-Flex" shafts and 2-piece balls, so I did.  I even got "club cart" fittings that excluded trying anything outside of those choices.

 

Over the years and with lessons, I made some improvement, but until I purchased my own launch monitor and made some comparisons, then was able to travel to an experienced, independent fitter who actually paid attention to my personal swing characteristics, I didn't find out that those assumptions were wrong for me.

 

Swing speed is an important factor in your equipment choices, but not the only one.  Swing speed is just a starting point.  Golf is a personal sport and "one size fits all," doesn't.

 

As to golf balls, my belief is that a ball that feels and performs best for you in your short game is the best choice.  If there is any difference in distance off the tee between golf balls, I've found it to be negligible.  I've also found the 2-piece balls to be less consistent in performance and quality.

 

Echo this statement.  I think for slower swing speed players, its all about what feels good to you and works best for how you play the short game.  If you like a lot of "check" the you need a tour ball.  If you play the ball to roll, a two-piece ball is probably best.  Each category of ball has varying degrees of softness, so it's a matter of what you like off the club face.  Personally, I will play PV1, Srixon Z-Star, or most recently the MG Golf Tour C4.

 

Until this year, my wife only wanted to play Srixon Z-Stars and not because she has a high swing speed!  They felt the best to her.  She never liked PV1's.  This winter I gave her the Bridgestone Precept Lady because of the low temperatures and she likes it.  It will be interesting to see which one she chooses now that the weather is getting warmer.  I'm betting on the Z-Stars.

[jaskanski]

Personally, I've never understood why anyone would want to select a ball based on their swing speed. 

If you break down the shots played in a round, how many actually are struck at 105mph (which we assume is your maximum driver swing speed)? Maybe 10 if you're lucky?

Then work out how many shots account for partial or delicate shots like pitches and chips - and then crucially how many of those shots are putts? Not so many 105mph swing speeds now that any ball "optimised" for this speed can take any if at all advantage of.

Therefore, it would make more sense to fit a ball around the shots you are most likely (by % of your round) to play - this basically means a ball must feel pretty good off the putter, then must be receptive to spin around the greens, then give adequate spin and trajectory for irons, then lastly the driver. 

If it doesn't meet the requirements of the first and most important part of the game (i.e. holing the ball) then why bother continuing to evaluate a ball any further?

If you look at the fitting methodology of Titleist and Taylomade for example, you'll see that the ball is selected from the green backwards - most pros are more likely to say the first thing they do with a new ball is "putt with it". Any other criteria for selection (for example driver spin or distance) is pure marketing twaddle. 

[jaskanski]

[BK in TEXAS]

 Around the green I want to see the ball checking so that I can control it and hit a variety of shots - I don't like to have to rely on trajectory (flop shot) to get the ball close - I want to be able to use spin and a variety of different shots with my wedges with the flop being the shot of last resort.

 

This. 

 

I'm not a high-spin player in the least. I choose the ball that will stick as much as my swing will allow.  A full 6i should not bound over the green and into the rough.  I think many players would shoot lower scores simply by choosing the ball that gets them closest to the pin rather than the furthest down the fairway.

[BK in TEXAS]

 Around the green I want to see the ball checking so that I can control it and hit a variety of shots - I don't like to have to rely on trajectory (flop shot) to get the ball close - I want to be able to use spin and a variety of different shots with my wedges with the flop being the shot of last resort.

 

This. 

 

I'm not a high-spin player in the least. I choose the ball that will stick as much as my swing will allow.  A full 6i should not bound over the green and into the rough.  I think many players would shoot lower scores simply by choosing the ball that gets them closest to the pin rather than the furthest down the fairway.

[Kenny B]

I think this may go back to a comment from my BS thread as well  - we want a ball/club combo that produces shots that fit our eyes.  I can't see what goes on up on the green so much but I can watch the ball flight - I'm looking for the high draw off the driver and some sort of medium ball flight with a slight draw off the rest.  Around the green I want to see the ball checking so that I can control it and hit a variety of shots - I don't like to have to rely on trajectory (flop shot) to get the ball close - I want to be able to use spin and a variety of different shots with my wedges with the flop being the shot of last resort.

 

I agree somewhat.  I like to see the ball checking on the green too.  However, that's a shot that you have to practice, and trust that you can pull it off on the course.  Better players can do that.  As the HCP goes up, the ability to consistently have that shot diminishes.  I don't know what the HCP cutoff is but I know that I can't do it every time.  I actually have more short game misses by spinning the ball too much and the ball doesn't roll up to the hole like I thought it would.  My wife (18HCP) doesn't have the check shot at all, but is a very good judge of how much roll to put on the ball.  She can consistently do that.  However, there are certain situations that don't permit that shot and that's where she can get into trouble.  That's why for her, the feel of the ball off club around the green is so important.  No clicky balls, and no spongy balls!

[wbealsd]

"No clicky balls, and no spongy balls!"

 

Now.that's a good advertising campaign, right there!

 

No Clicky, No Spongy

[markb]

To RR's original assumption, I do think that his being on the speed borderline has something to do with the reason he doesn't see clearer distinctions between the performance of balls.   I'm at about 105 and I see the same sorts of indistinct feedback, but I play regularly with a guy who is quite a bit slower than me and a young guy who was just scoped at about 115.    They notice MUCH sharper differences.   A couple of weeks ago, it was getting nippy and so out come the Duo's for me and I let the 115 kid try them.   He hated them, he said they jumped like weasels off of his irons and putter and went nowhere off of the driver.   I confess I could even see what he was talking about off of his shots, but they were wonderful for me.   So I think that balls for different SS's are sort of like movable sole weights on drivers -- you only notice their effects when you move to the extreme ends.

[Kenny B]

To RR's original assumption, I do think that his being on the speed borderline has something to do with the reason he doesn't see clearer distinctions between the performance of balls.   I'm at about 105 and I see the same sorts of indistinct feedback, but I play regularly with a guy who is quite a bit slower than me and a young guy who was just scoped at about 115.    They notice MUCH sharper differences.   A couple of weeks ago, it was getting nippy and so out come the Duo's for me and I let the 115 kid try them.   He hated them, he said they jumped like weasels off of his irons and putter and went nowhere off of the driver.   I confess I could even see what he was talking about off of his shots, but they were wonderful for me.   So I think that balls for different SS's are sort of like movable sole weights on drivers -- you only notice their effects when you move to the extreme ends.

 

At SS of 86 my assessment of the Duos was exactly the same as your young friend with the high SS.  They went nowhere off my driver and they were difficult to control.  They are in my "spongy ball" category.  

[fozcycle]

What about the wilson duo?  it's the "softest ball" on the planet, yet is a 2 piece ball.

 

We have several single digit players in our Saturday Game that use the Duo.

[Undershooter]

One of my best rounds of 2014 was with a wilson duo and my swing speed is well above someone who "should" use that ball.

[markb]

What about the wilson duo?  it's the "softest ball" on the planet, yet is a 2 piece ball.

 

We have several single digit players in our Saturday Game that use the Duo.

 

I've been using the Duo all winter in the cold.   Shot a 70 with it two weeks ago.   But when it gets warmer, I find it doesn't go as far off my driver.

[Sschaffer24]

I think using Titleist as the biggest example, that basing your ball decision off of SS doesn't make any sense.

 

As was said earlier in the thread, you only hit MAYBE 14 shots a round with that top end SS, and a much higher amount of shots with all of the different clubs in your bag! I swing my driver probably the same speed that Bubba swings his 7 iron, and I use the Pro V1X. Why? Because it spins the least off of the driver for me, launches high to promote extra carry, spins excellent around the greens so I can control my short game and is extremely durable.

 

The only thing I don't love about the ball is the feel. It's too firm for me. But I notice that comparing it to a Pro V1, the X is consistently carries further, spins less off of the driver and the same off of wedges. I'll give up a little feel for the measurables.

 

I did order a box of the Snell My Tour Ball, and am excited to play that. I'm hoping it'll hit the sweet spot of all of the X attributes, and give me the feel of the Pro V1.

 

But considering SS for my ball choice? Not even in the consideration. It doesn't make any sense. 

[RoverRick]

I have done a number of ball tests. 3 or 4 per year over the last few years. Often I played several balls per hole and tracked distance and closest to the pin, etc, and there was one trend that developed. The Titleist Pro V1x was not the longest or most GIR or best feeling or whatever, but at the end of the round, it was always 2 or more strokes less than the other ball I played.

 

I love the BStones off the tee, but hate the short game. I love the feel of the Callaway Tour balls around the green and especially putting. There have been several TMag balls that out performed the others in all ways but score. And I have play a few Nikes I liked. But this game is about score, not distance or feel.

 

I will even admit that there may be some placebo effect here also. I use a Scotty putter, and only a Scotty. I have 3. All with custom grips and paint fill. No matter how hard I try, I go back to my 4 year old Vokey wedges with the custom paint feel and grips. I have 3 fairly new Scor Wedges that I simply do not score with.

 

Why? I am not sure, but I think because I have a good feeling when I pull that club, wedge or putter, out of the bag. I feel like I can get that Pro V1x with the Vokey to do what I want it to do, and the same with the putter. I also think they look good and that the people who I am playing are jealous of my wedges and putter because they are so great.

 

Is this reality? Who knows. But it is where equipment truly does effect the mental game. If you have doubts what the club or ball will do, then you only going to make it by blind luck. Swing Speed means nothing. Driving distance? Not much more. GIR? Close to the pin? Again, nothing. It is all about getting the ball in the hole and what gives you the most confidence.

[The Dansome]

I have done a number of ball tests. 3 or 4 per year over the last few years. Often I played several balls per hole and tracked distance and closest to the pin, etc, and there was one trend that developed. The Titleist Pro V1x was not the longest or most GIR or best feeling or whatever, but at the end of the round, it was always 2 or more strokes less than the other ball I played.

 

I love the BStones off the tee, but hate the short game. I love the feel of the Callaway Tour balls around the green and especially putting. There have been several TMag balls that out performed the others in all ways but score. And I have play a few Nikes I liked. But this game is about score, not distance or feel.

 

I will even admit that there may be some placebo effect here also. I use a Scotty putter, and only a Scotty. I have 3. All with custom grips and paint fill. No matter how hard I try, I go back to my 4 year old Vokey wedges with the custom paint feel and grips. I have 3 fairly new Scor Wedges that I simply do not score with.

 

Why? I am not sure, but I think because I have a good feeling when I pull that club, wedge or putter, out of the bag. I feel like I can get that Pro V1x with the Vokey to do what I want it to do, and the same with the putter. I also think they look good and that the people who I am playing are jealous of my wedges and putter because they are so great.

 

Is this reality? Who knows. But it is where equipment truly does effect the mental game. If you have doubts what the club or ball will do, then you only going to make it by blind luck. Swing Speed means nothing. Driving distance? Not much more. GIR? Close to the pin? Again, nothing. It is all about getting the ball in the hole and what gives you the most confidence.

I can't argue with Ricks findings at all. I always seem to score a little better with a Titleist, something about the clean, classic written logo. Only other ball I get really good results like this from is the Wilson FG tour.

 

But I tell ya, find a Titleist on the course and things just seem to get better.

 

With that said I hit the Snell and Nicklaus black way too well during testing not to put them in play this year.

[Mr_Theoo]

I can't argue with Ricks findings at all. I always seem to score a little better with a Titleist, something about the clean, classic written logo. Only other ball I get really good results like this from is the Wilson FG tour.

 

But I tell ya, find a Titleist on the course and things just seem to get better.

 

With that said I hit the Snell and Nicklaus black way too well during testing not to put them in play this year.

It will be interesting to see how they perform once the summer heat hits. I know last year I loved the project A from TMag but couldn't uae it in the heat. It just wouldn't perform for some reason

[The Dansome]

I've played these in 15°c (60f) and they looked good. But I agree always interesting to compare at 70-80°

[revkev]

Interesting discussion to which I have little to add other than this, clearly different balls perform differently, they also fell differently. Like Rick I will test balls to see when I'm not in the competitive part of the year. I have no doubt there is more to it than swing speed because we all launch the ball differently and for that matter we use slightly different equipment too.

 

The one thing I try to convince my friends of is to pick the same ball and play it all the time through the competitive part of the season. It removes a variable.

 

I ended the season with the 330rx and nothing knocked it off its perch this winter so it's end until the end of the year.

[mr_divots]

I've noticed over the years from one ball offering to the next, they may change core compression enough that I don't like it the next iteration. Both Callaway balls and Nike Balls have been this way many times for me. The firmer variants I knew I wasn't compressing as they did not feel good, and my accuracy off the tee especially suffered.

 

With the graduated core designs they do now, I think it makes sense to start with short game feel, and then make sure you can compress it well enough with the driver to not handcuff yourself off the tee and lose distance.

 

I don't know what the patent-holding scenario is for Titleist, but that may have some bearing as to what their offerings are versus other companies? Maybe they just can't offer other styles/compressions because the large rubber comapnies have the patents to make them happen. I hated the PV1/V1x that came before the '13 design. I thought they felt horrible, and I know they had to do a patent back-peddle with those variants and why they were as they were. They were toe to toe with Bstone at the time.

[Sschaffer24]

RoverRick,

 

You just took my entire feeling on this subject and wrote it on this page! That's weird!

 

I couldn't agree more though. People worry SO much about what's "right" and what numbers are "best" in this game, that they completely throw out the idea of feel and confidence.

 

Those two variables are so extremely important. I have to have complete confidence in whatever I'm using. All the way through my bag, to the ball, to the shoes, tees, rangefinder, glove, and glasses. If something is off because of my equipment it effects my score.

 

The ball is the only thing equipment wise that you use on every single shot. Titleist (as an example) gives me a complete and total confidence on the course. I game that ball for that reason.

 

I'm going to give the Snell balls a go, hoping they give me everything the X does but with a better feel. If they do that, I'll have that extremely important variable, otherwise known as confidence.

 

People worry about all of the numbers that their ball gives them, and forget to take into account they have to have complete confidence in the ball. Branding CAN do that.

[Kor.A.Door]

As I read this thread one common thong that everyone is saying, but really haven't said is this, that each individual person playing the game must choose the equipment that best feels right, and gives them the most confidence, this includes the ball.

Personally I feel that there are many players who are playing don't get enough out of their ball, but it are one they prefer to play, if you can afford to lose x amount of yards off the tee, and irons, just so you have the ability to stop a chip shot, that's your business, I would rather find a ball that performs well off the tee and irons, that also has some good feel around the greens, I don't feel as though I. We'd to stop a chip shot, since I have been trying to get the ball rolling as much as I can while chipping. So basically find a ball that does what you want it to do, and don't listen to the hype from all the companies, they don't pay any of us to use their equipment, so we can use what we want

[fozcycle]

The past several weeks we have been playing early in 50* to 60* weather.  I have gamed the Wilson Duo and the Hogan Edge, both are two piece Low Compression balls.  For my SS(90-95), I found that they both performed admirably.  I got the same distance off the Tee(180-200) and found the they both sculled across the green when I equatered a short pitch.  I could also 3 putt with both of them, wearing two gloves and having no feel.  Now that the weather is warming up to the 80's, I will change balls to 3 piece balls in my inventory.....Maxfli U3, MG 380E and Hogan Legend.