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Ball Spin


Blade

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OK we need to move this discussion.  Now I'm thoroughly confused!

 

Maybe common knowledge is wrong about this subject.  I have read the same explanation I gave in the other thread more than once.  It didn't come from me originally.  But Paderson informed me that the more a ball slides up the face of a driver instead of gripping it, the more it spins.  However, at the same time, reducing the coefficient of friction with a foreign substance, which will let the ball slip more, will reduce spin.  Sorry, but that doesn't compute.  But maybe that's just me.

 

If I'm totally misunderstanding something, let me know.  And if I wrongly contradicted Mark, I apologize.

 

Some other things in that post described the fact that the more a ball compresses and deforms while on the face, the more spin and less distance it will have.  Makes sense.  A harder ball goes farther and spins less.  But a harder ball will also have less contact area on the face and a lower coefficient of friction creating a smudged mark in the powder like Mark's pictures.  That again contradicts the idea that more slip equals more spin.

 

What am I missing?  I don't mind finding out I misunderstood something.  BUT, if so, make it make sense!  

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William (Bill) Gobush's research for Titleist titled "Spin and the inner workings of a golf ball" from the publishing "Golf the scientific way" will explain every question you have about what creates spin. It's not grooves, it's not slippage, etc. it's the compression of a golf ball and how much you compress it reacting to the loft of the club. A golf ball isn't in contact with the face long enough to slip. It's less than a nanosecond. He's one of the foremost experts on the subject matter there is. He has been contracted to model golf ball behavior god knows how many times over.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Oh yeah - Rookie made me read that Tome once - how could I forget. :)

 

Actually I think Blade will love it. 

 

I'm not so big on the slippage thing as Blade is because we were talking about such a minute difference in actual performance.  I'm actually surprised that the less compression, the less spin the more distance concept - it makes sense and I don't know why I never figured it out before.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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William (Bill) Gobush's research for Titleist titled "Spin and the inner workings of a golf ball" from the publishing "Golf the scientific way" will explain every question you have about what creates spin. It's not grooves, it's not slippage, etc. it's the compression of a golf ball and how much you compress it reacting to the loft of the club. A golf ball isn't in contact with the face long enough to slip. It's less than a nanosecond. He's one of the foremost experts on the subject matter there is. He has been contracted to model golf ball behavior god knows how many times over.

 

Really?

Strange how the Titleist website seems to contradict this. Specifically, under the title of "don't believe the hype" when talking about compression.

http://www.titleist.co.uk/golf-ball-fitting/

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attachicon.gifScreen_shot_2014-08-08_at_2.55.42_PM_grande.png

 

 

 

Crickets chirping...

I will say this much....While you don't SEE a drastic difference in how much that ball is deformed between those shots, you can see a difference.  Think about how difficult it is to compress a ball by hand, or even if you put it in a vise for that matter.  I would submit that the difference in those shots is small visibly, the forces required to get from the low speed shot to the high speed shot are much greater.  The rebound that ball will have as a result in the high speed shot will be very different from the low speed one.

 

That said, it really doesn't answer the initial question of spin generation.

 

Spin comes from the difference between the face angle and the path of the club.  If the face and path were perpendicular to each other, the ball wouldn't spin.  The more friction between the face and ball, the more torque will be created in the compression of the ball and therefore make more spin when it rebounds.  That's why lubing the face of a driver reduces spin and makes for longer shots.  The ball doesn't grip the face of the club as quickly and less torque builds up during compression.

 

But, what do I know?  Haha!  I will look up what Rookie posted when I get a minute.

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Exactly.

Spin is direct result of Newtons laws of motion. The angle of attack, combined with loft and club speed determine the spin rate. Without friction of some sort, then spin would not be generated according to Newtons third law - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This accounts for why a backspin is a result of a club with an angled face travelling in one direction imparts spin in the opposite direction of the force. Friction is why the ball doesn't simply jump forward with zero spin, or jump forwards with top spin (if you hit it right lol).

The direction of the golf ball is determined by Newtons second law of motion:

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

Now, if we take into account compression as a vector for golf ball spin, it doesn't really compute. Why? Well if we take the case of a wedge versus a driver. For example the driver is swung by a pro at 120mph and the resulting spin is possibly 2500rpm. The same ball is struck with a half wedge at 50mph or less with much less speed and compression - and it spins at over 4500 rpm.  So compression has little to do with it. It was a result of loft and angle of attack. The speed at which the contact occurred is still critical though.

Spin is a component of ball flight dynamics - but it's still the least important factor. Ball speed is still the most important factor, followed by launch angle (which is a direct result of angle of attack and loft). Spin is mostly a by-product of these two.

Some covers are more receptive than others (as some balls are softer compression than others) but the ball does not spin as a result of being compressed. 

You can try the same with a pool ball if you like (which won't compress much at all) - it spins as result of where and how it has been struck - not by the construction of the ball itself.

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Isn't it not legal to put lube on the driver face, or am I missing something here, if it's not, what do you use to lube the face, because if it gives more distance I'm in

I don't mean it's legal.  I'm making the point less friction reduces spin.

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Exactly.

Spin is direct result of Newtons laws of motion. The angle of attack, combined with loft and club speed determine the spin rate. Without friction of some sort, then spin would not be generated according to Newtons third law - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This accounts for why a backspin is a result of a club with an angled face travelling in one direction imparts spin in the opposite direction of the force. Friction is why the ball doesn't simply jump forward with zero spin, or jump forwards with top spin (if you hit it right lol).

The direction of the golf ball is determined by Newtons second law of motion:

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

Now, if we take into account compression as a vector for golf ball spin, it doesn't really compute. Why? Well if we take the case of a wedge versus a driver. For example the driver is swung by a pro at 120mph and the resulting spin is possibly 2500rpm. The same ball is struck with a half wedge at 50mph or less with much less speed and compression - and it spins at over 4500 rpm. So compression has little to do with it. It was a result of loft and angle of attack. The speed at which the contact occurred is still critical though.

Spin is a component of ball flight dynamics - but it's still the least important factor. Ball speed is still the most important factor, followed by launch angle (which is a direct result of angle of attack and loft). Spin is mostly a by-product of these two.

Some covers are more receptive than others (as some balls are softer compression than others) but the ball does not spin as a result of being compressed.

You can try the same with a pool ball if you like (which won't compress much at all) - it spins as result of where and how it has been struck - not by the construction of the ball itself.

Who said compression alone? I said compression and loft. You believe what you want, I'm going to choose to believe what the man that wrote the book on how golf balls perform (literally wrote a book on it) says. Compressed golf ball(when it flattens) is spun as a result of the loft of the club and it's difference in the static position of the ball upon it flattening against the face. The ball doesn't compress, it's not going to spin nearly as much as a compressed ball. Example? A 60 degree wedge on a full swing vs a 60 degree wedge on a half swing. Same club, same ball, different swing speed (resulting in the ball compressing less) and the spin rate doubles or more.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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I will say this much....While you don't SEE a drastic difference in how much that ball is deformed between those shots, you can see a difference. Think about how difficult it is to compress a ball by hand, or even if you put it in a vise for that matter. I would submit that the difference in those shots is small visibly, the forces required to get from the low speed shot to the high speed shot are much greater. The rebound that ball will have as a result in the high speed shot will be very different from the low speed one.

 

That said, it really doesn't answer the initial question of spin generation.

 

Spin comes from the difference between the face angle and the path of the club. If the face and path were perpendicular to each other, the ball wouldn't spin. The more friction between the face and ball, the more torque will be created in the compression of the ball and therefore make more spin when it rebounds. That's why lubing the face of a driver reduces spin and makes for longer shots. The ball doesn't grip the face of the club as quickly and less torque builds up during compression.

 

But, what do I know? Haha! I will look up what Rookie posted when I get a minute.

There is no friction and no torque built. The ball isn't in contact long enough. That's why shots hit with a 60 degree wedge off the rack and an identical one without grooves at the same swing speed in an iron byron produce near identical spin results.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Not so sure about that. Friction isn't time dependant. The more indirect an impact, the more friction has to play a part. Try coating a wedge with axle grease and see how much spin you get off of it. It would launch higher with a lot less spin than normal.

Friction.png

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As long as the coating is uniform and the face remains perfectly flat (which is what the milling on the face of a wedge ensures, a perfectly flat surface), you won't see a very large difference in spin on a full shot.  Know why they changed the groove rule?  Because they said the grooves were too large and increasing spin and accounting for more GIR's.  Grooves don't increase spin, they're there to filter dirt and debris away from the face to ensure a flat hitting surface.  Why do you think the PGA tour averages haven't changed since the groove change?  Because they make no difference.  But it did make a difference in sales.  The groove change has also been extensively tested and proven to have little to no effect.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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This opens up so many questions I hardly know where to start. I do wish that I had paid more attention in school for certain.

 

Here's the burning one: why are we told we have to change wedges every so many years or shots? I still have a set of Ping Eye 2s in the garage room, any time I take one of the wedges out I have no trouble spinning them. There was a huge deal when they came out about their grooves. Clearly with real grass and turf those grooves make a difference, they also seemed to make a difference at slower speeds (chips and pitches, I could hit part shots that my opponents could not). I can only go by experience here and am not trying to be contrarian.

 

So my question is, does it matter if the grooves are worn? (My experience is not much) If so why.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Here is Titleist's Spin on Spin....

THE IMPORTANCE OF SPIN
DRIVER SPINdriver-spin.png

Off the tee, all Titleist golf balls offer low spin, and when tested with a driver there is less than a 500 RPM difference between all models.

SHORT GAME SPINshort-game.png

On the scoring shots, the difference in spin rate between models is significant and game-changing. When tested, the difference in spin rate can be greater than 1500 RPMs between models, with Pro V1 and Pro V1x providing the best spin on the scoring shots for all golfers.

 

Driver: image.png.6ba1c8a254ad57aa05e527b74c2e04ba.png0311 XF 10.5* w/Project X Cypher 40 gram Senior shaft or 0811 XF 12* w/Evenflo Riptide CB Senior shaft

Fairways:  image.png.80321f01fc46450b6f428c7daf7b3471.png0211 5W & 7W w/ Evenflo Riptide CB  regular shaft and Tour Edge E521 9W w/Fubuki HD50 regular shaft

Hybrid: None in bag at the moment

IronsTitleist T300 5-PW w/Fubuki MV Senior graphite shafts w/Golf Pride Tour

Wedges: Edison forged 49*, 53* and 57* wedges with KB PGI Senior shafts(80 grm).

Putter: 33” Evnroll ER6R or  ER2 or Bellum Winmore Model 707,   or Nike Method Core Drone  w/Evnroll Gravity Grip

Bag: Vice cart bag(Black/Lime). 

Ball: Snell MTB Prime X, Maxfli Tour/S/X CG, Titleist Pro V1x or Titleist TruFeel

Using Shot Scope X5 and Pinned Rangefinder

 

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This opens up so many questions I hardly know where to start. I do wish that I had paid more attention in school for certain.

 

Here's the burning one: why are we told we have to change wedges every so many years or shots? I still have a set of Ping Eye 2s in the garage room, any time I take one of the wedges out I have no trouble spinning them. There was a huge deal when they came out about their grooves. Clearly with real grass and turf those grooves make a difference, they also seemed to make a difference at slower speeds (chips and pitches, I could hit part shots that my opponents could not). I can only go by experience here and am not trying to be contrarian.

 

So my question is, does it matter if the grooves are worn? (My experience is not much) If so why.

They're wider and deeper, more gunk can be moved away from the face via the grooves. 

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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So if the Pro V1x provides less spin off the tee and more spin on scoring shots than what would be the purpose of playing the Pro V1?

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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