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Length, Lie, Swingweight...I need some help...


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So here is the deal:

 

  1. I am a single digit handicap
  2. Using several methods (lie board, face tape, and even dirt on face), my lie angle always seems to be too flat
  3. I had my first real fitting on Saturday at Club Champion, where I was told to go .5* flatter
  4. I already push the ball right at times so my thinking was, "won't this make it worse?!?!"
  5. However, upon further research there are a lot of people who argue clubs are being made more and more upright to help people who slice and push it right but in doing so causie good golfers to swing more and more steeply...this makes some sense because I have a steep swing but do not come over the top.
  6. I was also told my swingweight should go up from D3 to D4 and soft step the shafts once.

 

Soooooo...

  • Would it be wise to go ahead and go flatter to promote a flatter swing?
  • Would it be a problem to soft step without removing the 1/2" of shaft? I understand the total weight will go up, but I would plan to grip down slightly as I prefer that feel. This should move the swingweight up to the suggested D4 (as long as I choke down) while still softening the flex.

There is just an abundance of info out there and it is terribly difficult to ascertain what is truly good info.

Can anyone help me out here???

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Not totally my area of expertise but I will say this much - I have found through time that I prefer my irons 1/2 long for exactly the reason you have stated - I hit the ball better when I grip down a bit.  I also like a light shaft which interestingly increases the swing weight and allows me to feel the club head through the ball.

 

It works for me.

 

I can't help you with the lies so much, I've been 2 degrees flat forever.  Okay not forever but since Ping made me aware of such things back in the early 80's.

Taylor Made Sim2  10.5 (Opened 1 click) Ventus Blue 5  R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

Edison Wedges 54 and 59 KBS Tour Graphite 80's

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Tour Exotics 3 wood is in the bag because we are allowed 14 clubs.  It's a great club for pulling balls out of the water or from bushes - you never want to put your hand into anything in Florida unless you are absolutely certain that it's safe.  There are rare wind conditions when I might hit it off the tee on a few holes that I play.  

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Would a second opinion from a different fitter be worth doing? Seems it wouldn't hurt. You could even send Roy Nix an email.

http://mcnixgolf.com/go-low/

 

He a pretty smart dude and a Master Club Fitter.

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Would a second opinion from a different fitter be worth doing? Seems it wouldn't hurt. You could even send Roy Nix an email.

http://mcnixgolf.com/go-low/

 

He a pretty smart dude and a Master Club Fitter.

 

I will do that, thanks.  The guy I saw has been doing this for over 11 years and has received nothing but great reviews.  The other guy working there has been doing it for 15 and has fit PGA Tour pros, so I would hope they are on the right track.

 

 

Not totally my area of expertise but I will say this much - I have found through time that I prefer my irons 1/2 long for exactly the reason you have stated - I hit the ball better when I grip down a bit.  I also like a light shaft which interestingly increases the swing weight and allows me to feel the club head through the ball.

 

It works for me.

 

I can't help you with the lies so much, I've been 2 degrees flat forever.  Okay not forever but since Ping made me aware of such things back in the early 80's.

 

Yeah I know what you are saying, I guess it doesnt hurt to leave them long, I can always blow the grips off, cut 1/2" then put them back on if need be.

As far as the swing weight thing, you said "interestingly". I'm guessing you know why, but perhaps not. So encase you do not, the swingweight increases because you are essentially moving the center of mass further toward the club head. Think of holding a 30 lb weight to your chest, then extend your arms away from you.  It's still 30lbs but it feels much heavier (same concept with golf clubs).  

 

But thank you for your experience, I think on the length front I'll just go for it, a half inch of shaft cannot weight enough for me to be like "#%!& this is heavy" haha

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TM Jetspeed w/ Fuji X 13.5*

TM UDI w/ Recoil 120 F4 21*

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TM EF Spin 58*/ATV

TM Ghost Tour Black Monte Carlo

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If you don't cut them to the correct lengths after softstepping, you're negating the lie angle change, and taking them more upright actually.  Each 1/2 inch is 1 degree of lie's equivalent.  If you want to leave the length 1/2 inch long, you're going to have to bend them a degree and a half flat of where they are now to get to 1/2 degree flatter from where they are now.

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In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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If you don't cut them to the correct lengths after softstepping, you're negating the lie angle change, and taking them more upright actually.  Each 1/2 inch is 1 degree of lie's equivalent.  If you want to leave the length 1/2 inch long, you're going to have to bend them a degree and a half flat of where they are now to get to 1/2 degree flatter from where they are now.

 

but im gripping down

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TM Jetspeed w/ Fuji X 13.5*

TM UDI w/ Recoil 120 F4 21*

TM 2011 TP MBs 4-pw X100ti

TM EF Spin 52*/ATV

TM EF Spin 58*/ATV

TM Ghost Tour Black Monte Carlo

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Yes, I did know why but I'd rather know why twice than not at all.  Thanks!

 

I would listen to Rookie, he's the one who got me into a lighter weight steel shaft which ultimately led to graphite.  I've known him for a long time and would trust his advice implicitly.

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Taylor Made Sim2  10.5 (Opened 1 click) Ventus Blue 5  R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

Edison Wedges 54 and 59 KBS Tour Graphite 80's

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Tour Exotics 3 wood is in the bag because we are allowed 14 clubs.  It's a great club for pulling balls out of the water or from bushes - you never want to put your hand into anything in Florida unless you are absolutely certain that it's safe.  There are rare wind conditions when I might hit it off the tee on a few holes that I play.  

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Yes, I did know why but I'd rather know why twice than not at all.  Thanks!

 

I would listen to Rookie, he's the one who got me into a lighter weight steel shaft which ultimately led to graphite.  I've known him for a long time and would trust his advice implicitly.

 

I understand what Rookie is saying, I did know the correlation between length and lie...but in this case I mentioned gripping down to negate the extra length which would keep them at the same lie angle.

 

The only reason I was going to keep the extra length was because I just regripped my irons not long ago and like gripping down on the club just a little (probably a 1/2") so outside of raising the overall weight very slightly, I dont really see a disadvantage leaving them long.

  • TM M1 430 w/ Speeder 757 X

TM Jetspeed w/ Fuji X 13.5*

TM UDI w/ Recoil 120 F4 21*

TM 2011 TP MBs 4-pw X100ti

TM EF Spin 52*/ATV

TM EF Spin 58*/ATV

TM Ghost Tour Black Monte Carlo

Pro V1

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I understand what Rookie is saying, I did know the correlation between length and lie...but in this case I mentioned gripping down to negate the extra length which would keep them at the same lie angle.

 

The only reason I was going to keep the extra length was because I just regripped my irons not long ago and like gripping down on the club just a little (probably a 1/2") so outside of raising the overall weight very slightly, I dont really see a disadvantage leaving them long.

So blow them off and reuse the grips.  The problem I see lies in can you consistently grip down exactly 1/2" every time?  It also lies in when you do regrip and decide to cut them down, you will have to disassemble them again in order to redo the swingweighting.  1/2" is equal to 3 swingweight points. 

 

You can do whatever you choose.  Were it me, I'd blow the grips off (or use a spring tool if they were put on with tape and you can't break them loose with a little solvent and air), cut them to the correct length plus swingweight, and regrip them.  But they're your clubs and I was just answering your question.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Yes, I did know why but I'd rather know why twice than not at all.  Thanks!

 

I would listen to Rookie, he's the one who got me into a lighter weight steel shaft which ultimately led to graphite.  I've known him for a long time and would trust his advice implicitly.

And for the record, I tried to get you to go with graphite from the beginning, lol.

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In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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So blow them off and reuse the grips. The problem I see lies in can you consistently grip down exactly 1/2" every time? It also lies in when you do regrip and decide to cut them down, you will have to disassemble them again in order to redo the swingweighting. 1/2" is equal to 3 swingweight points.

 

You can do whatever you choose. Were it me, I'd blow the grips off (or use a spring tool if they were put on with tape and you can't break them loose with a little solvent and air), cut them to the correct length plus swingweight, and regrip them. But they're your clubs and I was just answering your question.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you. I appreciate your time and thoughts. But whether I leave them +1/2" or cut it off after soft stepping I would not be changing swing weight because they would be gripped in the same position relative to the head that they are now, correct?

 

The total weight would go up if I left the 1/2" on, but swing weight should remain D3 as they sit currently.

 

I guess I could ask anyone how they know they grip the club the same every time? I know I do because it is part of my routine, so if part of that routine is making sure I grip at a sharpie line rather than just off the butt of the club I should be just as consistent right? (Again I am looking for honest answers, I'm not trying to sound like a smart a$$ with my replies)

  • TM M1 430 w/ Speeder 757 X

TM Jetspeed w/ Fuji X 13.5*

TM UDI w/ Recoil 120 F4 21*

TM 2011 TP MBs 4-pw X100ti

TM EF Spin 52*/ATV

TM EF Spin 58*/ATV

TM Ghost Tour Black Monte Carlo

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My Pings, I started at green dot many years ago, and the last fitting I had, I was a little stiff that day and coming over the top. They wanted to put me into red dot just to negate the over the top pull I had going on that day. I'm 6'2" and have never needed a flat lie angle. It felt like a total bandaid fix to me. I ordered blue dot and they've been great.

Soft stepping AND more swingweight to soften the flex? Which shaft? Are they SURE its the right shaft?

I used to grip down. I am much happier playing the proper length now. I agree that consistency goes up. Especially if you have a shot you really need to grip down on the club. You get onto the steel that much faster.

 

Soft step and more weight to soften the flex sounds like they're fighting the shaft's characteristics quite a bit?

D4 is not super heavy (my PW is D4) but once you get up to the long irons, it can get heavy. I keep it D3 these days. I used to play as heavy as D8, but over the top tendencies were worsened. I much prefer the lighter SW now.

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I'm not trying to argue with you. I appreciate your time and thoughts. But whether I leave them +1/2" or cut it off after soft stepping I would not be changing swing weight because they would be gripped in the same position relative to the head that they are now, correct?

 

The total weight would go up if I left the 1/2" on, but swing weight should remain D3 as they sit currently.

 

I guess I could ask anyone how they know they grip the club the same every time? I know I do because it is part of my routine, so if part of that routine is making sure I grip at a sharpie line rather than just off the butt of the club I should be just as consistent right? (Again I am looking for honest answers, I'm not trying to sound like a smart a$$ with my replies)

You don't build swingweights based on whether one chokes down. You build swingweights based on the total length of the club. Back weight them with an actual counter weight if you want the back weight there (that's what the extra shaft will be acting like along with having a different fulcrum point than it will when you swing it). Like I said they're your clubs. If you want to take the cheaper route and not build them properly, by all means, it's your clubs and your game. But you asked for advice so I gave it from the perspective of someone that builds and blueprints clubs. I'll bow out now, you've got your mind made up obviously. It's the wrong way to try and build a set that actually fits, but your choice.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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You don't build swingweights based on whether one chokes down. You build swingweights based on the total length of the club. Back weight them with an actual counter weight if you want the back weight there (that's what the extra shaft will be acting like along with having a different fulcrum point than it will when you swing it). Like I said they're your clubs. If you want to take the cheaper route and not build them properly, by all means, it's your clubs and your game. But you asked for advice so I gave it from the perspective of someone that builds and blueprints clubs. I'll bow out now, you've got your mind made up obviously. It's the wrong way to try and build a set that actually fits, but your choice.

 

PM'd you.

  • TM M1 430 w/ Speeder 757 X

TM Jetspeed w/ Fuji X 13.5*

TM UDI w/ Recoil 120 F4 21*

TM 2011 TP MBs 4-pw X100ti

TM EF Spin 52*/ATV

TM EF Spin 58*/ATV

TM Ghost Tour Black Monte Carlo

Pro V1

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