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Tweak my lofts - yes or no?


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Hey there boys, long time listener first time caller and all that.

Worth noting that I have only been playing about 7 months, game is coming along quite well (shot 90 last week, new PB, but average low-mid 90s).  I'm naturally quite strong, so not all that perturbed by the idea of increasing loft a little bit.  For reference, my 7 iron goes over 150 without too much effort, my drives hover around 280, hit one 300 on a flat hole yesterday, probably had some more roll in it too, came to rest in a fairway bunker that I was surprised I could reach - so I guess that is respectable.  Consistency is a different thing however.....

So I have a bit of a mixed up bag (I posted it - twice, oops sorry mods - in the WIYB survey discussion and said some work will be done on it soon).  I am currently pondering playing around with swingweights and lofts to make it a little more coherent.  I am struggling with the longer irons - mostly because my swing isn't good enough to use them, but having gaps a little too large with the shorter/wedges.

I have picked up a hybrid to help me out with the longer stuff (Cleveland 588 @ 20.5*) as the >190 yards is where it all goes wrong for me. Also have a 4W that I get along just fine with from the tee, but cannot hit to save my life from the deck.

I suspect my Cleveland irons (MT588 R flex steel, which I am generally happy with) are lofted for marketing value, and while that does succeed make me feel tough, is leaving some issues.

Here are their lofts, along with the lofts of the Maltby wedges I am playing as well:

Lofts as follows: 4 - 21, 5 - 24, 6 - 27, 7 - 31, 8 - 35, 9 - 39, P - 44

Maltby wedges: 50 54 60

I am finding the 44-50 gap a bit large, and am also pondering bending the 4 iron out to a 3 to use as a driving iron (it's not coming out of the bag much now, my home course is very windy, so the low flight should help me off the tee a bit, and as noted above, I am inconsistent with my driver and when it all goes wrong, I have a slice for the ages.  I would have gladly sacrificed 50 yards on the back 9 yesterday to have been anywhere that was on short grass - and on the correct hole :) ). 

 

Some ponderings:  Maybe making the 5 iron a little stronger and then having my 6, 7, 8, 9 and P all 0.5-1* weaker to close the gap to my 50.  Otherwise, could go the other way, make the 50 into a 48/49, maybe the 54 into a 53, the 60 to a 59.  I dunno.  Maybe I just like to tinker with things when I really shouldn't.  Feel free to slap me if so :)

I live in Vietnam, which limits access to stuff a bit, but there is a good clubmaker/fitter in town.  When I bought these clubs, I probably wasn't good enough to be fitted (barely knew how to hold the club) but I can go in now for some tweaking.

Any suggestions on whether I should/should not play with these, and if so - what you would you recommend that I do with them.

- Matt

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Bend the 50* to 48* or 49* if the gap is bothering you. I can't see bending the rest of the irons strong or weak when you can accomplish exactly what you want by bending just 1.

 

With that being said, the lofts on those irons are extremely strong! Not that it matters, just an observation.

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21° is already a 3i loft. 24 is a normal 4i. Your lofts are already jacked one club strong. I wouldn't try taking loft off of them. Weaken them to get closer to where a normal set is and you'll close the gap to your wedges.

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Ya, that is sort of what I am thinking, weaken all other than the 4i (which strengthening would effectively convert to a 2i), which makes a big gap at the top but the rest of the clubs more standard in their lofts.

 

However, as Baseball points out, same achieved by strengthening wedges...although I would like to keep my 60 at 60 and the only way to do that is to widen gap between 50/54 or 54/60 wedges instead.

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Your 4 is stronger than the actual loft of my Nike 3i lol.

 

With that said, what are the yardage gaps in your clubs? The loft gaps are one thing but actual yardage doesn't always translate. From what I observe, a 7i going 150 and and a driver going 300 or close doesn't get close to translating. I hit my weak lofted 7i 175 and driver 295. You sure you know how far you hit your clubs? An accurate LM can go a long way.

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ HZRDS Green PVD 70TX"
Fairway Metal- Taylormade SLDR Mini Driver 12* w/ Fujikura Rombax TP95-X"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP- FLI HI 2i w/ Aldila Proto ByYou 100X
          Mizuno MP59 4i-6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 54* bent to 55* and 60*

Putter- Taylormade Spider Tour w/ flow neck
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B X

Bag- Sun Mountain C130 Supercharged

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I would say drop one of the longer clubs you don't feel comfortable hitting and pick up another wedge. That's what I have recently done.

Driver:  :ping-small: G30 9*

 

Irons:  :callaway-small:  X-Forged 3-PW

 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX 2.0 52*

                :ping-small:  Glide 58*

 

Putter:   :taylormade-small: Itsy-Bitsy Spider

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We just had a similar discussion in a different thread, but you need to look at this as a distance problem, not a loft problem.

 

Look at the distances you hit each club, write them down.  Verify through a launch monitor or on course testing with a GPS that you actually do in fact hit the clubs the distances you think you do.  (that step is very important, especially for newer golfers)  Sometimes we think we hit it farther than we really do.

 

Once you have the distances figured out you have options.  With a 44° PW you could consider dropping one of the clubs at the top end of your bag and going 48/52/56/60 on the wedges.  That would most likely even out your gaps.  Another option is to keep the clubs you have now and work on gripping down and 3/4 swing shots.  In the long run this option will be better for your golf game, but it takes a bit more work.

 

The biggest recommendation I can give you though is to go to that fitter you mentioned and do a full bag fitting.  If you are truly hitting driver 280 then your 7i should be closer to the 170-175 range.  I suspect R flex in the irons might not be the best match for you.  Obviously you can't fit flex based on swing speed and distance, but it's something that stands out.  The fitter should be your first stop.

 

If you are hitting that far and shooting in the 90's already I think it's time to get fit.  i wouldn't spend money bending clubs and buying wedges when your distances could completely change with a properly fitted set of iron shafts.  You might pick up 10-15 yds on each club and then completely have to redo your wedge selection anyway.

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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First of all welcome if I didn't welcome you elsewhere.

 

I fully agree with the post above.  It's tempting to go for bandaides when issues arise when something more substantial is needed.  For that reason the other thing that I would add is it might be wise to take some lessons.  Obviously you are doing lots of things well and you are heading in the right direction.  A good teacher will help solidify all of that and can make the types of recommendations you are asking of us.

 

I agree with some others that there is a seeming disconnect between your driver distance and your 7 iron distance.  If you are accurate there I would guess that your irons aren't properly fit. 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Like others said....fitting would be 1st choice.  Barring that:

 

Driver distance can be misleading.  My driver SS is 97, but drives can go

 

You hit your 31Ëš club 150, so based on ONLY that, it that puts you right around regular flex.  My point is, don't immediately think you need stiff or X-stiff without getting fit or at the least, find a Mizuno Shaft Optimizer to get your swing "DNA".

 

Anyway...back to your original question.... I'd find your distance gap between the PW and 50Ëš wedge. You can do it on a course if you happen to play on a slow day by hitting shots with both clubs and averaging.  If the gap is too much for your liking then bend the wedges or get new ones.  I prefer not to bend wedges more than 1Ëš since it can change the bounce enough to screw you up around the green.  I'd also ditch the 21Ëš iron.  That thing has to be hard to hit with any consistency, both distance and accuracy. You may find you want to ditch the 24Ëš iron as well (FWIW...my 5i is 26Ëš and I don't carry a 4i).

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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So firstly - thank you all for the responses so far, greatly appreciated.

 

hmm - OK people are latching on to that 7 iron, but I should say that the "not too much effort" was probably the key phrase there. The day before I posted that I found myself right beside the 200 yard marker with no shortage of hazards between me and hole - it was very late in the round and my swing had all but fallen apart (started great, ended with a lot of "if.i.hit.one.more.ball.right.im.gonna.kill.someone." kind of day). I pulled out the 7 since I am most confident with it, and took a very easy swing, and it landed right beside the 50 marker. I have no doubt that if I put a little more effort in, I could get another 15, 20 yards out of it - so this is clearly my fault in the original post. I picked a bad swing to cite (but cited it only because I happened to go marker-to-marker precisely).

 

That said, you guys are right that this is a distance issue more than a loft issue. I got thinking about it the day before (notably that 44-50 gap) when I was playing a diffferent course and had a 125 yard par 3. My PW went sailing over it, my 50* found the bunker in front of it. I had the course more or less to myself, so teed both clubs a few times to same result. So, yup, BK, that's exactly what I did, and basically what inspired this thread. Note that this was a tee shot, so easier than deck striking, but it did get me thinking about it.

 

The poster above (hckmeyer) is right in saying that I should learn to control my swing more so I could then do it with the PW and less effort...I guess I should stick that on the list of things I have to learn about this game. It's kind of a long list already :)

 

I don't know of any launch monitors kicking around Vietnam, the fitter/clubmaker that I mentioned above who is very well regarded by the golfing community in the city, manages to not own one. Joys of developing countries...however I am pretty conscious of working out my distances on course. Mostly with the shorter irons, because I am more consistent with these, so can start thinking about them more closely, but it is something that I am paying attention to.

 

Oh, and I have been having lessons ~weekly for about six months. I have come a very long way in that time, certainly an extremely long way to go, but from not-knowing-how-to-grip to my current striking, scores and distances, I think I am doing pretty well :) I have no intention of firing the teacher now - actually gonna double down and hire him for my wife as well.

 

Thanks again all for the responses.

 

BTW - no one really gotten into whether strengthening the 4 iron a little (as noted above, strengthening based on my lofts would effectively make it a 2i) would be a good idea. I'm just wondering if that would be a useful tee option for me for days like the other day when it all falls apart. It would leave a big gap to the 5 iron, but I have a 5 hybrid to cover that, so I am not too worried. Again - I am a natural born tinkerer, so feel free to administer a firm backhand if that is the correct response.

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So firstly - thank you all for the responses so far, greatly appreciated.

 

hmm - OK people are latching on to that 7 iron, but I should say that the "not too much effort" was probably the key phrase there. The day before I posted that I found myself right beside the 200 yard marker with no shortage of hazards between me and hole - it was very late in the round and my swing had all but fallen apart (started great, ended with a lot of "if.i.hit.one.more.ball.right.im.gonna.kill.someone." kind of day). I pulled out the 7 since I am most confident with it, and took a very easy swing, and it landed right beside the 50 marker. I have no doubt that if I put a little more effort in, I could get another 15, 20 yards out of it - so this is clearly my fault in the original post. I picked a bad swing to cite (but cited it only because I happened to go marker-to-marker precisely).

 

That said, you guys are right that this is a distance issue more than a loft issue. I got thinking about it the day before (notably that 44-50 gap) when I was playing a diffferent course and had a 125 yard par 3. My PW went sailing over it, my 50* found the bunker in front of it. I had the course more or less to myself, so teed both clubs a few times to same result. So, yup, BK, that's exactly what I did, and basically what inspired this thread. Note that this was a tee shot, so easier than deck striking, but it did get me thinking about it.

 

The poster above (hckmeyer) is right in saying that I should learn to control my swing more so I could then do it with the PW and less effort...I guess I should stick that on the list of things I have to learn about this game. It's kind of a long list already :)

 

I don't know of any launch monitors kicking around Vietnam, the fitter/clubmaker that I mentioned above who is very well regarded by the golfing community in the city, manages to not own one. Joys of developing countries...however I am pretty conscious of working out my distances on course. Mostly with the shorter irons, because I am more consistent with these, so can start thinking about them more closely, but it is something that I am paying attention to.

 

Oh, and I have been having lessons ~weekly for about six months. I have come a very long way in that time, certainly an extremely long way to go, but from not-knowing-how-to-grip to my current striking, scores and distances, I think I am doing pretty well :) I have no intention of firing the teacher now - actually gonna double down and hire him for my wife as well.

 

Thanks again all for the responses.

 

BTW - no one really gotten into whether straightening the 4 iron a little (as noted above, straightening based on my lofts would effectively make it a 2i) would be a good idea. I'm just wondering if that would be a useful tee option for me for days like the other day when it all falls apart. It would leave a big gap to the 5 iron, but I have a 5 hybrid to cover that, so I am not too worried. Again - I am a natural born tinkerer, so feel free to administer a firm backhand if that is the correct response.

I don't know if a strengthened 4(3 or 2) iron would help you off the tee. It comes down to ball striking. It also comes down to forgiveness and what the strengths of your game are. If you play in really windy conditions, it may be easier to learn how to hit stingers with your driver or woods unless your iron play is superior. I have just as good of a chance at hitting a fairway with my driver as I do with my 3W. I think that's really where modern technology factors in. The only time I club down is when the length of my driver will put me in a bad position.

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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Duplicate.

Driver -  :taylormade-small: M1 9.5* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Fairway -   :taylormade-small: M1 5W 19* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 70X

Hybrids -   :ping-small: G25 4H 23*

Irons -  :mizuno-small: JPX 850 Forged 4-PW w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Wedges - :mizuno-small: S5 50*07, 54*12, 58*12 w/ Nippon N.S. Pro 1150S

Putter - Oddyssey Metal-X #7 w/ SuperStroke Pistol GT 2.0

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I pulled out the 7 since I am most confident with it, and took a very easy swing, and it landed right beside the 50 marker. I have no doubt that if I put a little more effort in, I could get another 15, 20 yards out of it - so this is clearly my fault in the original post. I picked a bad swing to cite (but cited it only because I happened to go marker-to-marker precisely).

 

Hey, there is nothing wrong with an easy swing that lands where you want it to land!

 

 

That said, you guys are right that this is a distance issue more than a loft issue. I got thinking about it the day before (notably that 44-50 gap) when I was playing a diffferent course and had a 125 yard par 3. My PW went sailing over it, my 50* found the bunker in front of it. I had the course more or less to myself, so teed both clubs a few times to same result. So, yup, BK, that's exactly what I did, and basically what inspired this thread. Note that this was a tee shot, so easier than deck striking, but it did get me thinking about it.

Sounds like a 48-52-56 wedge setup might be a pretty easy ticket to fixing that gap.

MENTOR, L4 COACH & TRAINER  FIRST TEE GREATER HOUSTON
HDCP: 8.3  (GHIN: 3143312)
In my bag, April 2023
:titelist-small: TS3 Driver & 4 Wood Hzrdous Smoke Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:titelist-small: TS2 Hybrids  Mitsubishi Tensei Shaft (Stiff Flex)
:mizuno-small:  MP-59 5-PW; KBS Tour (Regular Flex)
:titelist-small: SM8 Wedges

EVNROLL ER2  Putter
SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND BALL
Sun Mountain Cart Bag
:Clicgear: 4.0 Push Cart (I'm walking 9 outta 10 rounds!!)

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As a general rule I would suggest a hybrid over tweaking a long iron to make it stronger. But since you've taken lessons why not ask your teacher. He knows your game and should be more help live than us guessing from half way around the world.

 

You're doing great, stay the course, and stick with the horse that's carrying you I would say.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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He will just tell me to "stop f*****g around and swing better".

There may well be wisdom in those words, but there's no fun :)

True that!

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Mostly for the yuks :)

 

Chatted on IM with teacher today....

 

--

 

Me: I suspect you are going to say 'shut your mouth and fix your swing' to me here, but I'll ask anyhow. Would it be a good idea now that I have started to get functional to take my clubs to the fitter and get them more accurately fitted for me? lofts/lies/distances of each club etc.

Me: or 'shut your mouth and fix your swing'?

Teacher: Forget loft (it actually means "Lack Of F*****g Talent"). Lie angle is important. We can check it next lesson. Distance is a product of the swing. Soooo, SYMAFYS!

Me: haha - actually my clubs are lofted a bit weird (basically one club strong eg...44 degree PW and 21 degree 4 iron), but i guess that doenst really make a difference, just makes me feel tough about how far i can hit since my 7 is really a 6.  does give me a wedge gap though, which got me pondering at the course last week

Me: file that under 'can discuss while messing around with lie' however

Teacher: Most clubs today are manufactured with "strong" lofts. A 44 PW would be complimented with a 50 degree Gap wedge (aka approach wedge)

Me: i have one of those.  I have 50, 54, 60 wedges

Teacher: Then no adjustments or new purchases are necessary

Me: i found on a 125 par 3 that my PW was sailing over and my 50 wasnt reaching, which got me wondering if that 6 degrees was too much.  Tried it a few times too.

Teacher: Check the shaft flex. Chances are your 50 has a "wedge" flex shaft which is X and your Pw is reg

Me: ok

Me: R flex is basically what I need at the moment, correct? right thru bag?

Teacher: Eventually will be S once you learn to release your hands correctly

Teacher: You're a strong guy, but you're not applying your strength in the right areas

 

Me: So shut my mouth and fix my swing :)

 

Teacher: :)

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Ha ha....I like your teacher already

Driver: :taylormade-small: SLDR w/ Fujikura Ventus Black

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :cleveland-small: 5i - gap Launcher CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 CBX & 58 Zipcore w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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You did the right thing, that's why you are improving so quickly!

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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