Quo Vadis Golf ball?

[revkev]

Guys if you aren't aware of it from the intro section we are fortunate to have Dean Snell as a part of our community. Aside from being a New Englander which brings instant cred in my book, Dean has an impressive resume in R and D on Golf balls for Titleist and TMag. Many of us have played and extolled the virtue of the golf balls that he has helped to create.

 

I've opened this thread in hopes of enticing him over here. He has been most gracious in answering our questions over in the intro section. I would suggest you check that out if you haven't and perhaps we can use this thread to discuss the developement of the golf ball past, present and future.

 

I will start the ball rolling and ask about compression. In the buyers guide on the blog there was a comment that the Pro VIx was out performed distance wise because the slower swinging testers couldn't compress it. I don't buy that argument. (Honestly I don't believe the testers were slow swingers) Titleist doesn't seem to either as it often touts the Ix as its longest ball across the board regardless of swing speed. Comments or thoughts from the peanut gallery on the impact of compression on driver distance? Perhaps Dean might weigh in also.

[Kor.A.Door]

I would almost say that compression really only matters when using the driver, after that it becomes about feel. That's my take anyway.

[fozcycle]

I have been experimenting with the super low compression balls such as Wilson Duo, Callaway Supersoft Hogan Edge & Maxfli Softfli.....for the most part, they have performed admirably over the winter months.....Now that the weather has warmed up a bit (80's) I look back into my bag for my Pro V1x's, Kick X Tour and MG C4's......That said, I have read some nice things about the Snell ball.   What can you say that will convince me to try the Snell ball?

[revkev]

Actually Kor a dor we had a discussion on another thread where it would appear as if the opposite is the case - the ball is on the driver face for the least amount of time so compression really doesn't matter off the driver as much as it does for other shots.  That's my understanding at least. 

 

No doubt that discussion will resurface here in a bit now regardless of whether or not Dean weighs in.  I'm hoping he does but given that he worked for Titleist I'm confident that their answer would be the Pro VIx is their longest ball for all swing speeds, compression has nothing to do with driving distance. 

 

We'll see.....

[dsnell19]

thanks for having me... love to answer as many questions as I can.. and remember, these are my opinions only.. others may have others..In my opinion compression is the most overrated golf term there is.. most people do not even know what it means.. how its tested, or in fact even what the units are... I can cover that later if anyone really cares.. so for golf balls.. the 2-pc balls used to be true 90 and 100 compression.. back in the 90's... but then we started making balls in the 80 compression range (remember the Noodle?)... so what would 80 compression mean back then?  ladies ball.. so we stopped putting compression ratings on golf balls.. because people like the softer feel, and longer distances..compression in my opinion is truly a golf ball designers tool.. I use it to help as part of overall feel, help predict spin rates and help with distance control...it is part of feel, but not the whole part.  today we are able to make very soft compression cores without losing any ball speed.. huge technology advancement in golf balls.. used to be if we lowered the core, they got slower.. not the case today.. we have ways to keep speed with softer cores, which helps in controlling  or lowering spin rates to make shots longer with great feel.  I agree with Titleist in that every player can compress a golf ball.. Through the cover and well into the core at any speed.. so again, in my opinion I do not think anyone should ever chose a ball based on swing speed or compression.. heres why.  Lets say we all believe that IF I play a lower compression ball and have a slower swing speed, I will be able to gain speed cause I can compress the ball.. not true but lets say it is for the scenario.. so IF you gain 1.0 mph ball speed with this low compression ball (which is a huge gain in speed), and you have to play a 400 yard par 4, your 240 yard drive (when hit perfect) now went 241 yards... so now instead of having 160 yards left, you have 159 yards... and now you are sitting in the fairway with a low compression very low spin golf ball... and have to play your next 2, 3, 4, 5 maybe 6 shots with a very low spin ball... these are shots where you need some spin and control but you do not have it cause you chose a low compression low spin ball.  now if you miss the green, you really need alittle added spin to help stop closer to the pin.. maybe save a few 3 putts and who knows maybe even get up and down...but you are giving up this spin and performance because you believe you needed that lower compression ball to add distance off the tee.. average players need spin around the greens... dont worry about the compression.. chose a ball that you like from 100 yards and in... trust me, they all go about the same off your driver... but most of your shots to reduce your score are not going to come from a 1 yard increase in a perfect drive... they will come from where you play the most.. and where you need performance the most... sorry for the long winded answer.. hope this helps..

[revkev]

I'm curious as to what the counter argument would be in regards to compression.  Does anyone know? 

[dsnell19]

The overall ball compression has a less affect on driver spin than the core compression. Generally speaking, when the core compression is lowered the driver spin is also lowered.

[revkev]

Okay here's another one, I'm going to keep asking so long as Dean will answer, thanks!

 

The indoor launch monitor that I have access to is at a facility that uses mid level Nike practice balls. I tend to hit a pro level ball, a Pro VIx or Bridgestone B330 RX 5 yards farther than a RZN red or NXT tour. how would that be reflected in LM numbers? Also when I've hit wedges there I find the spin rates low, how mush more spin might I expect if I were hitting a pro level ball with a gap or pitching wedge? I'm talking the difference between a full wedge with a NXT Or a Pro VIx type ball.

 

Thanks!

[Kenny B]

Love the questions! So, I'll ask... How much difference in spin rate is there between a new tour level ball and one that has 18 or more holes on it? I'm sure that there is a difference if played by a high or low swing speed player. When should you change a ball other than when it looks a little "used"?

[dsnell19]

Okay here's another one, I'm going to keep asking so long as Dean will answer, thanks!

 

The indoor launch monitor that I have access to is at a facility that uses mid level Nike practice balls. I tend to hit a pro level ball, a Pro VIx or Bridgestone B330 RX 5 yards farther than a RZN red or NXT tour. how would that be reflected in LM numbers? Also when I've hit wedges there I find the spin rates low, how mush more spin might I expect if I were hitting a pro level ball with a gap or pitching wedge? I'm talking the difference between a full wedge with a NXT Or a Pro VIx type ball.

 

Thanks!

Indoor Launch monitors are good to be able to get your launch conditions... 3 big factors on distance are 1. launch angle  2. spin rate and 3 ball speed.. and launch and spin are more important in distance gains that ball speed.. meaning that if you are able to reduce your spin and increase you launch, you will add more distance versus adding 0.5 or 1.0 mph ball speed..  You also have to remember that these launch monitors are using one set of aerodynamics that are programmed.. so the distance numbers are simply a calculation of the launch conditions... my suggestion is to always try to fit your driver to 12-13 deg launch and 2400-2500 spin... good starting point... if you are a player who can hit with very low spin, then for sure add loft to your driver.. 2000 rpm at 14-15 degree launch is very good.. if you are a player who has a bit higher spin, say 2800 to 3000 rpm, then you would want to bring you launch down a bit, to around 10-11 degrees.. As for you wedge question, this is where you would want to test using you own ball for sure.. i have done many pro and am wedge testing.. a full wedge for tour players using high quality tour balls can be around 10,000 rpm backspin.... having the same player hitting a lower spinning 2-pc  ball can be reduced to 5000-6000 rpm... so almost half as much spin... golf balls are very different on this shot, so whenever your looking to test new wedges or even working on your own game, always try to use your own golf ball here...numbers can be way off to your game if testing with the wrong ball.

[dsnell19]

Love the questions! So, I'll ask... How much difference in spin rate is there between a new tour level ball and one that has 18 or more holes on it? I'm sure that there is a difference if played by a high or low swing speed player. When should you change a ball other than when it looks a little "used"?

The golf balls today are solid in construction.. versus wound thread back in the 90's... so for the old wound balls, the thread would have a tendency to snap or break on repeated hits under the cover.. so subsequently they would lose ball speed and sometimes even cause the ball to be out of round.. today, since they are all solid, we do not have this issue anymore... so if you are lucky to keep a ball, it should be fine to last 3 to 4 rounds depending on how many trees or paths you hit... they will not lose spin because or holes played.. what you want to look for is the cosmetics on the cover.. golf balls have 1, 2, and sometimes even 3 coats of paint on them.. these are carefully applied to keep the desired shapes of the dimples... so if the ball gets scraped on a cart path, or cut with a new wedge, the dimple shapes will be altered and you may start seeing some crazy flights.. if the outside of the ball looks good, and no real damage to the dimples, then you will be fine to keep playing that ball..

[fozcycle]

So if your ball does have a couple of cart path skids on it, should you remove the fine burs and keep playing. Often times, you can simply use the ball washers and then rub the fine skin off. Today, I played one ball all day (18 holes) a DT Solo. I only alternated on Par 3's for a Pro V1x.

 

I had many wedge shots from under 100 yards and the ball would drop and stop all day long. This, with a DT Solo. I did not notice any reduction of flight or control as the game progressed.....

[Kenny B]

Thanks for the verification on ball usage. I have been playing a ball until the skin looks rather worn from wedge play, then I swap it out, putting it into the practice bag of ball for short game work. I was just wondering if I was losing distance or spin around the greens. If I have, it wasn't niticeable. This last week I played 62.5 holes in central Oregon with one MG Tour C4 before it decided to take a swim. It was looking rather used though.

[dsnell19]

Thats a good rule of thumb.. once it looks beat up a bit, change it out.. you should not see any difference in performance when slightly scuffed... its when serious damage to dimples from cart paths or sometimes the newer clubs and new grooves can cause some damage to the covers, where you would of course want to take that ball out of play.

[revkev]

With your comments on launch spin rates - I'm a high launch, moderate spin to low spin guy with my SLDR.  There are times where I approach TMags magic 17/1700 but I have found that my longest launch monitor drives occur at 16/2200. 

 

Of course I don't have an LM with me on the course to know what the number is on my longest drives there.  Of late they have been consistently in line with what I get on the LM - between 245-250.  I will average between 230-235 very consistently.

 

At any rate does the 16/2200 seem about right for a moderate speed swing with a very positive AoA?  I'm very consistent even if not very long.

[dsnell19]

Yes... 2200 rpm is very good driver spin, and certainly distance will increase when loft increases at your ball speed/swing speed..  that is a very good fit and probably wouldnt change anything..when the spin rates get lower, you need to make sure that you have the launch angle increase.. otherwise you may start to see the balls knuckle and fly funny and sometimes look like they fall out of the sky.. but your numbers are very good here.. so you should be fine..

[mbrodeur86]

Hi Dean and thank you for answering our questions. Right now, I use the 2014 version of the Prov1x. I do not ever buy them new because I think it's ridiculous to pay that much for a ball you might/will lose in the woods/water. My questions is this. How does your ball compare to it in terms of feel? I like the feel of it off of my putter and my wedges spin it around 10-10500 rpm according to our hd golf simulator. For the driver, I'm averaging around 255 off the tee with max of 280. I would love to find a similar ball that is less expensive and would love to try yours.

 

Thanks,

Lou

[dsnell19]

Lou

I think you will find the MY TOUR BALL to be slightly softer in overall feel with similar wedge spin that you mentioned. You should not see any decrease in any distances and in fact there have been several posts where people think it is slightly longer with the driver. I look forward to hearing your feedback after you give them a try. Thanks

Dean.

[DanUsh]

Hey Dean.

 

I have played the lethal a for the past three years and loved the ball. My only problem with the perhaps was durability for me with my wedges. How does the my tour ball compare in durability?

[dsnell19]

Both Lethal and MY TOUR BALL use cast urethane covers. MY TOUR BALL is slightly softer in compression than Lethal. Typically this will help the groove durability with wedges. However, when grooves are new or in good shape and some players really hit down on the ball, it is tough for the balls to not have some damage. Remember that cast urethane has white costs of paint over the covers. So when sometimes the player sees alittle white on the wedge, it may not be cover damage but only paint. Not that this makes it better but wanted you to know it may not be cover damage. If not too severe you can still use the balls. If material is removed like the old tour balata or soft surlyn balls, then I recommend replacement with a new one. Short answer is you may see some improve tv over Lethal but it is player and wedge dependent.

[hckymeyer]

Loving this thread and a big thanks to Dean for answering all of our questions.  Here's mine...

 

We all know driver COR has been maxed out for a while now.  We aren't seeing huge leaps and bounds with distance from year to year.  Where does golf ball technology fall into that spectrum.  Are there still big improvements that can be made?  Or are we mostly seeing small tweaks just so a company can say it's the "new" version and sell more?

 

I guess it comes down to do this.  Do you see any vast improvements that can be made to balls in the next 1, 3, 5 years etc...?

[Kenny B]

Great question!  I would like to amend it by asking if any vast improvements will be seen by both high and low swing speed players.  Seems like those that see improvement from technology the most are the ones that need it the least.

[dsnell19]

The days of seeing 20 yards increase with drivers are certainly over. We have rules for ball speed and driver distance and all pretty much max out that distance. I think you are seeing feel and control come back to the tour type ball. Remember after tour balata, we went to professional that increased feel to chase distance then prov1 type balls with even firmer feel to chase more distance. Then prov1x and b330 and callaway hex and he tour. Again firmer to chase more distance. All getting further away from softer feel. Today we are starting to bring back that softer feel. We are defining spin curves throughout the set. Meaning we look at 4 irons 8 iron wedges and chips all in one design. I think the average golfer has the most to gain. Being able to have improved performance from tee to green over 2pc balls will only help every player. So developments with varying spin curves to meet different performance levels can still be done. I am not a believer in swing speed stories in golf balls at all. Every player can compress a ball without any trouble. We use multi layered technologies to create better short game control and spin. Where most of the game is played. Granted slower swing speed players cannot spin wedges as much as tour players. But the low compression balls have the lowest spin on wedges as well. So even if they cannot spin it back, maybe stopping it a few feet closer will help eliminate a few three putts. Or maybe even have a few up and downs. Affordable performance is the way to go that can help golfers of all levels.

[revkev]

That affordable performance is the key phrase I think. Price scares a lot of players away from even trying tour level balls. I resisted the urge to try a Pro VI for a couple of years because I knew I would like it. My Pro made me switch. He took everything ball out of my bag, gave me a dozen Pro VIs and sent me out never to turn back.

 

Looking forward to getting out with My Tour Ball Friday. I though I'd play today but had a parish emergency.

[Bogey in The Woods]

This is a great thread.

 

Dean,

 

I am afflicted with what doctors have called "Terminal Slice-itis". So obviously ball spin, side spin especially, really effects my game. At a recent demo day, the Bridgestone guys put me through the little ball fitting they do. They ended up suggesting one of their balls (big surprise). He went through a 30 second explanation about the e7 and how the "mantle" under the cover didnt compress as fast as others, so the spin would be reduced on my drive. Looking at his LM numbers (assuming they were legit) did show a significant drop in spin. 4600 avg with Nike Black to a 2200 avg with the e7.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. is that an accurate description of how and why the numbers dropped?

 

2. how will your ball compare for a hacker like myself?

[dsnell19]

 

This is a great thread.

 

Dean,

 

I am afflicted with what doctors have called "Terminal Slice-itis". So obviously ball spin, side spin especially, really effects my game. At a recent demo day, the Bridgestone guys put me through the little ball fitting they do. They ended up suggesting one of their balls (big surprise). He went through a 30 second explanation about the e7 and how the "mantle" under the cover didnt compress as fast as others, so the spin would be reduced on my drive. Looking at his LM numbers (assuming they were legit) did show a significant drop in spin. 4600 avg with Nike Black to a 2200 avg with the e7.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. is that an accurate description of how and why the numbers dropped?

 

2. how will your ball compare for a hacker like myself?[/quote

Haha. There is no chance that your driver spin can drop from 4600 to 2200 because of a golf ball. Impossible by construction unless you tested using a tour balata ball first. You have to be a bit careful on those ball fitting numbers. Typically they have you hit only 3 shots. And not saying they all do this but have seen many pick your highest spinning ball and then their lowest spinning ball. And bam. There u go. Look. It's longer. When players slice golf balls that typically means higher driver spin. So you may have hit one real bad slice that counted then one decent one that counted. Those two could easily be 2400 apart. Most golf balls today are made w low driver spin. And most go similar distances off the tee. If you has that big of a difference then it was from the swing not the ball. As for Snell Golf ball, I would suggest GET SUM. It is very soft feel but made to try to reduce spin on all shots. To help reduce the hooks and slices. Of course it is not magic and will never remove them from your game. Haha. But give GET SUM a try. Look forward to what you think. Thanks.

[fbluhm]

I have been experimenting with the super low compression balls such as Wilson Duo, Callaway Supersoft Hogan Edge & Maxfli Softfli.....for the most part, they have performed admirably over the winter months.....Now that the weather has warmed up a bit (80's) I look back into my bag for my Pro V1x's, Kick X Tour and MG C4's......That said, I have read some nice things about the Snell ball.   What can you say that will convince me to try the Snell ball?

 

since you mentioned Kick X, I thought I'd mention that I read an article the other day that noted how Titleist is suing the manufacturer due to patent infringement. Titleist claims that Kick X (which is part of the Medicus family) has copied the dimples on their balls. If you've seen any of the Kick X ads lately on the Golf Channel, you'll notice that Kick X no longer shows the names of the balls that it supposedly outhits - instead they just show ball A, ball B, etc.

 

As for the balls I'm currently using, I prefer the Nicklaus Blues, which are designed for those hitting off the regular tees vs. bcd tees or senior tees. Excllent ball, and I get the same distance that i do with a ProV. They're $28 a dozen, plus any donation you like to make to your favorite charity. On certain days, I feel a yellow ball is easier to see, so I tee up a yellow Bridgestone RX.   

[dsnell19]

I have heard some comments on the yellow... we may look at that for the GET SUM product, but it is very tough to do with cast urethane covers.. this cover is extremely to manufacture, and if any mistakes are made they are scrap.. most of the yellow balls on the market today are mostly ionomer or surlyn type covers, or some thermoplastic urethane.. but not the cast urethane covers.

[Kenny B]

My wife, who is a decent player and has been playing for 50 years, will only play the Srixon Z-Star yellow balls, and has for several years.  Seems strange that she likes the Z-Star but not a ProV1.  I like them both.  I'm sure that the Z-Star is probably not the best fit for her swing speed, but she's tried other balls and can certainly feel the difference.  In the winter when it is cold, she will play the yellow Bridgestone Lady Precept for the softer feel.  BTW, she hates the Q-Star yellow.  

[dsnell19]

My wife, who is a decent player and has been playing for 50 years, will only play the Srixon Z-Star yellow balls, and has for several years.  Seems strange that she likes the Z-Star but not a ProV1.  I like them both.  I'm sure that the Z-Star is probably not the best fit for her swing speed, but she's tried other balls and can certainly feel the difference.  In the winter when it is cold, she will play the yellow Bridgestone Lady Precept for the softer feel.  BTW, she hates the Q-Star yellow.  

The yellow ionomer or surlyn types balls are doing alittle better in the marketplace.. today we estimate it to be alittle under 10% of the market... we will continue to look at colors in these types of golf balls... the GET SUM ball is very low compression and very soft, so this ball would fit into the types she likes to play... thanks..