Quo Vadis Golf ball?

[revkev]

Dean - you may wish to check out another thread that was started under equipment.  It has to do with the new push towards softer balls.

 

In case you don't make it over there I'll ask here.  Beyond feel what is the advantage to a softer ball or most specifically the softer balls that are currently being marketed?  I've been playing golf for 45 years and even though I was a very good player I was never a balata guy.  Cost/value plus distance gains for the wound surlyn covered balls kept me out of the balata market most of the time.

 

So, I'm wondering about he benefits of softer.  I have used a Pro VIx type ball for the past 7 or 8 years.  Honestly I prefer a little firmer feel because its what I've played all my life.  I hit that ball type a bit longer than the Pro VI type or clearly longer than the midline type balls (5-7 yards.)  I get adequate green side spin so that I can play the shots that I'm most accustomed to there.

 

Knowing those things what might be the benefit of a softer feel?

[Kenny B]

I ordered a dozen Snell My Tour Ball and they just walked in the door! It has been raining hard (1.3 inches since midnight) and it has now quit. That's 20% of our annual rainfall! By the time I get to the course in an hour, the course will be fairly dry. I will be playing 2 balls tee to green for 9 holes; the My Tour Ball and my current gamer; MG Tour C4.

 

Let's see what you got Dean.

 

Review posted in Review: Snell- My Tour Ball thread.

[dsnell19]

Dean - you may wish to check out another thread that was started under equipment.  It has to do with the new push towards softer balls.

 

In case you don't make it over there I'll ask here.  Beyond feel what is the advantage to a softer ball or most specifically the softer balls that are currently being marketed?  I've been playing golf for 45 years and even though I was a very good player I was never a balata guy.  Cost/value plus distance gains for the wound surlyn covered balls kept me out of the balata market most of the time.

 

So, I'm wondering about he benefits of softer.  I have used a Pro VIx type ball for the past 7 or 8 years.  Honestly I prefer a little firmer feel because its what I've played all my life.  I hit that ball type a bit longer than the Pro VI type or clearly longer than the midline type balls (5-7 yards.)  I get adequate green side spin so that I can play the shots that I'm most accustomed to there.

 

Knowing those things what might be the benefit of a softer feel?

good topic.  I posted this answer on the softer feel thread as well:

Interesting topic here.  I remember when I started in R&D, tour balata was the ball of choice... alittle confession here, although the balls said 90 and 100 compression on them, they were really much lower.. some of them even in the 70's...but back then, if someone said 80 compression, it was considered a ladies ball.. then comes the EV extra spin.. SD90.. HP2 Tour...Noodle.. all of these balls stared to push 2-pc firm distance balls into the lower, softer compression.. so the compression labels came off the boxes and we stopped talking about them.  Wound balata balls would spin like crazy.. I remember tour players actually using 6 and 7 degree drivers to try to keep the spin down. but boy did they love the feel... they felt that they could control the ball better.. that it stayed on the face longer...which it did... then we did Professional.. wound ball with first cast urethane cover.. compression increased to mid 80 and low 90... but spin dropped with drivers so they went further.. so players gave up a little feel for more distance.. then comes PROV1... even lower spin off driver so again longer... and compression creeps mid 90.. B330, Callaway HEX Rule 35, prov1x.. all come along and again push compression up to around (and some over) 100... so slow process over 10 years to have players give up on the preferred feel to gain the distance.. now today, distance is pretty much max'd out.. we are at the limits for ball speed.. for overall distance.. and tour balls and 2-pc balls have around the same spin rates.. so therefore they all go about the same distance.. the days of 30 yards gains are gone.. so technology has allowed us to make cores softer and softer without losing ball speed... used to be if compression of cores were softer, the speed was slower.. but we have new technology used today that can have 50 compression cores be same speed as 90 compression cores.. and the lower core compression helps lower the spin rate... so feel is on its way back to the discussions...I do not ever think the tour balata feel will come back... lots of golfers today have never experienced this level of feel at all.. and for tour players that I have work with do not want it to be that soft.. they think if real soft, then in their mind, shorter in distance..  for the 2-pc low compression balls listed in this thread, I would make sure you test these out on the short game.. low compression 2-pc balls have a tendency to feel softer, but have very low spin.. so around the greens where most need spin to help stop the ball, these balls will be the lowest and tend to roll out more... so, long story (sorry for that) short, feel is very subjective from player to player... find something that you prefer along with the performance, not just the feel..and test them from 100 yards and in.. where you play most of your golf... do not worry about swing speed and compression.. they all go around the same distance off the tee.. 

[revkev]

Thanks - this is what I thought - I'll comment over on that other thread. 

 

I do have another question here - How about the three piece vs. four or five or even six piece balls.  What are the performance differences there.  I notice your tour ball is a three piece one and I believe that is also true of my B330 RX - I hit your ball a couple of times the other day BTW - nice spin around the green - I'm looking forward to giving it a full go round soon.

[dsnell19]

Thanks - this is what I thought - I'll comment over on that other thread. 

 

I do have another question here - How about the three piece vs. four or five or even six piece balls.  What are the performance differences there.  I notice your tour ball is a three piece one and I believe that is also true of my B330 RX - I hit your ball a couple of times the other day BTW - nice spin around the green - I'm looking forward to giving it a full go round soon.

We use layers in designing balls to obtain a specific target.. some may be for firmer feel, some may be for long iron spin, some form ball speed, and some for spin.. so 3, 4, and 5 pc balls all have a specific design target in mind... lets say for instance you wanted to have a ball that has a firmer feel on shots, but need to add spin... then we would use the different layers to use materials that would give firmer sound, but another one to give elastic behavior to control spin.  Another example is soft.. if someone wanted it softer in feel, but keep spin controlled, the materials may be a bit slower in speed... so sometimes we would add a layer to help boost the ball speed a bit... each design is different, and layers are used to try to tie the whole design into one golf ball..

[fozcycle]

We use layers in designing balls to obtain a specific target.. some may be for firmer feel, some may be for long iron spin, some form ball speed, and some for spin.. so 3, 4, and 5 pc balls all have a specific design target in mind... lets say for instance you wanted to have a ball that has a firmer feel on shots, but need to add spin... then we would use the different layers to use materials that would give firmer sound, but another one to give elastic behavior to control spin.  Another example is soft.. if someone wanted it softer in feel, but keep spin controlled, the materials may be a bit slower in speed... so sometimes we would add a layer to help boost the ball speed a bit... each design is different, and layers are used to try to tie the whole design into one golf ball..

 

 

I note that Maxfli sells a 6 piece ball....the U6.   what is the target consumer for this ball?

 

 

[dsnell19]

I note that Maxfli sells a 6 piece ball....the U6. what is the target consumer for this ball?

Looks like they are talking about an inertia story here. Where moving weight outside slows down the spin decay. A lot of golf balls on the market shift the weight a bit into the mantle and cover layers. It is a balance that we work to control. Too much weight on inside is no good and too much way outside can also be no good.

 

 

[dsnell19]

 

I note that Maxfli sells a 6 piece ball....the U6. what is the target consumer for this ball?

Looks like they are talking about an inertia story here. Where moving weight outside slows down the spin decay. A lot of golf balls on the market shift the weight a bit into the mantle and cover layers. It is a balance that we work to control. Too much weight on inside is no good and too much way outside can also be no good.

 

 

 

sorry about that.. .looks like I answered this in the wrong area.. anyway, Looks like they are talking about an inertia story here. Where moving weight outside slows down the spin decay. A lot of golf ballson the market shift the weight a bit into the mantle and cover layers. It is a balance that we work to control. Too much weight on inside is no good and too much way outside can also be no good. 

[Chal]

I don't really have a question at all.  Just wanted to thank Dean for his participation.  Very interesting read.  I personally am a huge fan of the golf ball.  I have played 5 tournament rounds to this point with the ball and its performance has been excellent.  I am often asked about the ball and am happy to share were to go and purchase.  Many people converting at my club.  Thanks for the participation Dean.

[dsnell19]

I don't really have a question at all. Just wanted to thank Dean for his participation. Very interesting read. I personally am a huge fan of the golf ball. I have played 5 tournament rounds to this point with the ball and its performance has been excellent. I am often asked about the ball and am happy to share were to go and purchase. Many people converting at my club. Thanks for the participation Dean.

Thank you for the support and glad you like the performance of the golf ball. I enjoy the education part of the game and glad to share any experience I can.

[dsnell19]

Thanks to all those who participated in our fathers day special... appreciate the support and let me know if there are any other questions I can answer around golf ball technology or fittings...

[Kor.A.Door]

Dean, I like a ball that provides less spin off the driver, 3wood, but also has decent spin on the short irons, for most of us, finding a ball means spending money, and trying different balls, to see if they have the characteristics the we are each looking for. Since I know what I want in a ball, is there something that I can look for when purchasing a golf ball, to help me narrow down my search, and keep me from trying a ball that just won't fit what I am looking for. I currently am playing the Chrome soft from Callaway, I find that it provides less "side spin" with the tee shots, but technically speaking, I really don't know why I get less spin with this ball compared to the Prov1 style of ball. If I had an idea of what to look for, I may be able to find something that fits my game better, but am afraid to try because I'm just not sure what exactly to look for.

Thanks for the insight into the golf ball discussion

Korey

[dsnell19]

Dean, I like a ball that provides less spin off the driver, 3wood, but also has decent spin on the short irons, for most of us, finding a ball means spending money, and trying different balls, to see if they have the characteristics the we are each looking for. Since I know what I want in a ball, is there something that I can look for when purchasing a golf ball, to help me narrow down my search, and keep me from trying a ball that just won't fit what I am looking for. I currently am playing the Chrome soft from Callaway, I find that it provides less "side spin" with the tee shots, but technically speaking, I really don't know why I get less spin with this ball compared to the Prov1 style of ball. If I had an idea of what to look for, I may be able to find something that fits my game better, but am afraid to try because I'm just not sure what exactly to look for.

Thanks for the insight into the golf ball discussion

Korey

Korey

You are correct that it can be confusing.  Most companies will try to create golf balls with low driver spin rates.  When two pc balls are made with very soft, low compression cores, they have low driver spin rates and softer feel... however, with the two pc design, it is very difficult to create a lot of iron and short game spin.  This is where most people need spin the most.  So the balls may be straighter and less side spin, but they do not hold greens and have very low iron spin.  Therefore, we have the multi-layered designs.. This allows us to create low driver spins, but use the layers to create different iron and short game spin rates for more control.  So if you are looking for low spin on drivers and higher on irons, then I would stay away from any 2-pc designs.  Now, for the multi-layered designs, we all try to give low driver spin.  Look for the lower compression core design for driver spin, and the thin cast urethane cover technology for excellent short game spin and control.  This combination, in my opinion, is very good for most players and fits the largest target of golfers.  Hope this helps a bit, and let me know if you have any other questions.

dean.

[revkev]

Okay Dean I have one that hasn't been asked and you may well settle a five year debate (flat out argument).  I'll start by saying that I hold the same opinion that you expressed in your answer to Kor a dor above.  I firmly believe that if a player has options around the green he's way ahead of the game and the three piece urethane covered balls afford those options.

 

My friend's argument is that there is no data to support the argument that its better for nearly all golfers to use this type of ball.  He argues too that since it is more difficult to hit a bump and run with these balls they might be a detriment to that style of play.  My point is that all you need to do to add the bump and run is chip with a hybrid or fairway wood.

 

At any rate he remains unconvinced that most players should play a premium type ball and that it is a ploy of the ball manufacturers.  I counter by saying I think the mid level ball is the ploy and that they only really need to offer top or bottom (2 piece balls) but are forced into the mid level because people don't realize that the mid level ones give them none of the benefits of either ball.

 

Any thoughts?

[Kenny B]

I am interested in Dean's answer here, but I will also offer my opinion based on my experiences.  I think both of you are correct.  

 

It seems that your friend has gotten used to the 2-piece ball and how it reacts around the green.  Nothing wrong with that.  My guess is that he does the bump and run with a wedge or 9-iron.  When he does that with a tour level ball, it spins more than he is used to and ends up shorter than he expected.  I've done this too.  Unless this shot is practiced a lot, it's difficult to consistently judge the amount of spin coming from the tour ball.  The bump and run with a 2-piece ball is much easier to judge.  This shot is OK unless the pin is close or you need to fly the ball further, then the tour ball is an advantage.  The bump and run is a staple for my wife because she doesn't generate much spin even though she uses a tour ball.  However, she uses a variety of clubs (no hybrids or FW) rather than wedges.  

 

I agree with you that a mid level ball doesn't serve much of a purpose, except maybe give people the feeling that it's a better ball than a 2-piece ball at a cheaper price than the tour ball.

 

Waiting for Dean's answer...

[Kor.A.Door]

Thank you for sharing. I too am interested in Deans answer to the Rev, since he produces only 2 types of balls, it will be interesting to read his thoughts on the low end vs. Mid level balls. I have not tried either of the Snell golf balls, but after reading up on and hearing stories from people who have, I think I will see about getting some to try.

[Kenny B]

I am currently playing the Snell My Tour Ball and like it a lot.  I think I will try the Get Sum ball for comparison. 

[revkev]

@ Kenny - my friend doesn't play a two piece ball - he wouldn't be caught dead playing one.  He just doesn't buy the "hype" that every golfer would benefit from a three piece soft cover because it spins better.  He argues that better spin does not necessary equal better short game - I disagree and in fact we've had such heated discussions over the matter that both of us essentially left a forum that we were on together, I for here, he for facebook. 

 

In the end if you don't know how more spin around the green would make your short game better it's time for a lesson.  That's my motto.

[Kenny B]

I agree. More is better because it gives you more options if you are consistent enough to use it. If you are not consistent, then spin can be aggravating.

[Kor.A.Door]

I think that the type of shot you prefer to play, and also the course you play can also determine he ball you use, I don't like to have too much soon around the green, but because of the course I play it is almost a necessity to the grab when it hits, particularly on the 100-50 yard shots. I prefer to have some run out, but the conditions of the greens we use don't play to that favor, slick , grainy, Bermuda. I have played courses in the past where it didn't matter, the greens were always accepting and I could stop Callaway hx hots on them. I think there is a use for both types of balls, but I am interested in where a 3rd "middlevel ball" fits into the scenario

[dsnell19]

Okay Dean I have one that hasn't been asked and you may well settle a five year debate (flat out argument).  I'll start by saying that I hold the same opinion that you expressed in your answer to Kor a dor above.  I firmly believe that if a player has options around the green he's way ahead of the game and the three piece urethane covered balls afford those options.

 

My friend's argument is that there is no data to support the argument that its better for nearly all golfers to use this type of ball.  He argues too that since it is more difficult to hit a bump and run with these balls they might be a detriment to that style of play.  My point is that all you need to do to add the bump and run is chip with a hybrid or fairway wood.

 

At any rate he remains unconvinced that most players should play a premium type ball and that it is a ploy of the ball manufacturers.  I counter by saying I think the mid level ball is the ploy and that they only really need to offer top or bottom (2 piece balls) but are forced into the mid level because people don't realize that the mid level ones give them none of the benefits of either ball.

 

Any thoughts?

I think you both have some valid points.. however, when I talk about having more performance from 100 yards and in, this is where the ball is a benefit.. you guys are talking about one shot close to the green.. the bump and run... the spin rate of the ball is very low on this shot.. hitting a bump and run with a tour ball is very easy to do.. the tour players do it all the time.. most of them use 6 or 7 irons around the fringe to hit this shot..when I am talking about performance needed by average golfers, I am talking about hitting alot of shots, from many distances that can help you stop the ball alittle bit closer to the pin.. .maybe have a 15 foot putt instead of 20... and maybe 2 putt instead of 3 putt... average players will never make the ball spin back on these shots.. the impact and speed simply will not allow it.. but if it can stop alittle closer, it will certainly help.  if someone has a problem with hitting bump and run and is getting too much check, then it is simple to drop down one club and hit the same shot.. the spin rate and launch will drop, and the ball will roll out more.  But then you still have all the performance on all the other shots over a 2-pc ball... dont get me wrong, there are a lot of people of prefer the higher launch, bump and run shots of the 2pc ball, and are quite used of playing that shot... my point is that this can be done with a tour ball as well... may take a bit if practice or adjustment, but it can certainly be done.

[revkev]

Dean,

 

Thanks truly appreciate it.  These are all the arguments that I have made.  My friend's only retort is, "Show me data that proves a mid to high handicapper performs better with a tour ball."

 

My mistake is to say what you've said only add common sense in front of it - common sense says, "If you can stop a 50 yard wedge shot faster or put a little spin on a short chip with a wedge of some sort, you have more options and ultimately will shoot lower scores."

 

He doesn't like the common sense part.

[dsnell19]

Here is a little more data for you. Every time you can add 1000 rpm of spin with a wedge, you can stop the ball 6 feet closer to where it lands. Tour players spin wedges 10000 rpm on full shots. Average golfers spin it 5500 rpm. So this is why you never see an average player suck the ball back. It takes 9000 rpm of spin on a wedge to make it stop where is lands. On an average firm green. If higher it spins back. If lower it releases. So wedge and other shots that can add some spin will help stop it a bit faster. So if you hit a shot to a tight pin you have not chance to stop it. If it rolls out 20 feet you now have to try to two putt. If you were 6 feet closer, you have a better chance.

[revkev]

That is very helpful Dean and it explains a lot about my own game.  I'm right on the cusp at least whenever I test wedges on an LM.  Well struck wedge shots for me spin around 9,500.  It explains why my normal shot with a wedge on a course hits and stops and on occasion I will spin it back a bit.

 

I have another question that has to do with LM testing of clubs and fitting.  The place where I test is consistent in that all of its balls are the same - however the ball is not what I would typically use on the course - its some sort of Nike midline ball - I doubt that it makes much difference off of longer clubs but how about the wedge?  Last year I was asked to do a test of SCOR wedges for MGS and I was surprised that my spin numbers on full wedge shots were about 1,000 RPM less than I'd normally expect.  Was that the ball? 

[dsnell19]

That is very helpful Dean and it explains a lot about my own game.  I'm right on the cusp at least whenever I test wedges on an LM.  Well struck wedge shots for me spin around 9,500.  It explains why my normal shot with a wedge on a course hits and stops and on occasion I will spin it back a bit.

 

I have another question that has to do with LM testing of clubs and fitting.  The place where I test is consistent in that all of its balls are the same - however the ball is not what I would typically use on the course - its some sort of Nike midline ball - I doubt that it makes much difference off of longer clubs but how about the wedge?  Last year I was asked to do a test of SCOR wedges for MGS and I was surprised that my spin numbers on full wedge shots were about 1,000 RPM less than I'd normally expect.  Was that the ball? 

 

Yes, this could for sure be from the ball... In past testing that I have done with a scratch golfer, I took a tour ball and a 2-pc golf ball and had him hit wedges.. he spin the tour ball 10000 rpm and launch angle was around 30 degrees... then with the 2-pc ball, his spin was 6000 rpm and 45 deg on the launch angle.. so the tour ball has almost twice the spin and launches much lower off the face.. this is why a lot of better players do not play 2pc balls.. they have a tough time of occasionally getting those fliers of high launch and lower spin and over the green... the tour balls slightly compress and roll along the face causing lower launch and higher spin.. the 2-pc balls will "slide" a bit more than roll, so they launch higher with less spin.. if you are ever using a LM to test your own game or looking for infor on clubs for your own game I strongly recommend using the ball you play, or at least something very close.  

[revkev]

It is so kind of you to come on and share your expertise! I'm going to play your tour ball today. I do have another one. I played Friday in extremely wet conditions. It seemed like I was hitting knuckle balls all day with my wedges. Was this a product of the conditions?

[dsnell19]

It is so kind of you to come on and share your expertise! I'm going to play your tour ball today. I do have another one. I played Friday in extremely wet conditions. It seemed like I was hitting knuckle balls all day with my wedges. Was this a product of the conditions?

Your welcome. Yes when the conditions are wet the water will fill into the grooves and not allow grass and other debris to fill in like they are designed to do. Subsequently the water creates a sliding friction and grass stays between ball and face and causes the spin to be lower. This lower spin can cause the ball to fly funny or sometimes knuckle a bit if too low.

[revkev]

Shot 76 with a MY Tour Ball today, they work!

[mundinger]

When will Snell bring out an optic yellow ball? Here in the AZ desert, it is really hard to see balls as they land.......

[revkev]

When will Snell bring out an optic yellow ball? Here in the AZ desert, it is really hard to see balls as they land.......

Dean did comment on this one, I can't recall if it was on this thread or in the intro section though. I believe it has to do with the type of cover. Easier on the Get sum ball than the My Tour Ball, something like that. He's so gracious that I'm certain he'll give a more detailed answer.