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Quo Vadis Golf ball?

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Loving this thread and a big thanks to Dean for answering all of our questions.  Here's mine...

 

We all know driver COR has been maxed out for a while now.  We aren't seeing huge leaps and bounds with distance from year to year.  Where does golf ball technology fall into that spectrum.  Are there still big improvements that can be made?  Or are we mostly seeing small tweaks just so a company can say it's the "new" version and sell more?

 

I guess it comes down to do this.  Do you see any vast improvements that can be made to balls in the next 1, 3, 5 years etc...?

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Driver: :callaway-logo-1: Epic SZ w/ VA Composites Raijin 65 04

3w: :taylormade-small:'16 M2 hl w/ Diamana D+ 82

5w: :cleveland-small: Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Yellow

Hybrid: :cleveland-small: 22 deg. Launcher HB w/ HZRDUS Black

Irons: :ping-small: 5i-UW G700 w/ X100 soft stepped once

Wedges: :cleveland-small: 54 & 58 CBX w/ Nippon Modus 3 125

Putter: :odyssey-small: Red 7s

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Great question!  I would like to amend it by asking if any vast improvements will be seen by both high and low swing speed players.  Seems like those that see improvement from technology the most are the ones that need it the least.


We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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The days of seeing 20 yards increase with drivers are certainly over. We have rules for ball speed and driver distance and all pretty much max out that distance. I think you are seeing feel and control come back to the tour type ball. Remember after tour balata, we went to professional that increased feel to chase distance then prov1 type balls with even firmer feel to chase more distance. Then prov1x and b330 and callaway hex and he tour. Again firmer to chase more distance. All getting further away from softer feel. Today we are starting to bring back that softer feel. We are defining spin curves throughout the set. Meaning we look at 4 irons 8 iron wedges and chips all in one design. I think the average golfer has the most to gain. Being able to have improved performance from tee to green over 2pc balls will only help every player. So developments with varying spin curves to meet different performance levels can still be done. I am not a believer in swing speed stories in golf balls at all. Every player can compress a ball without any trouble. We use multi layered technologies to create better short game control and spin. Where most of the game is played. Granted slower swing speed players cannot spin wedges as much as tour players. But the low compression balls have the lowest spin on wedges as well. So even if they cannot spin it back, maybe stopping it a few feet closer will help eliminate a few three putts. Or maybe even have a few up and downs. Affordable performance is the way to go that can help golfers of all levels.

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That affordable performance is the key phrase I think. Price scares a lot of players away from even trying tour level balls. I resisted the urge to try a Pro VI for a couple of years because I knew I would like it. My Pro made me switch. He took everything ball out of my bag, gave me a dozen Pro VIs and sent me out never to turn back. :)

 

Looking forward to getting out with My Tour Ball Friday. I though I'd play today but had a parish emergency.


Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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This is a great thread.

 

Dean,

 

I am afflicted with what doctors have called "Terminal Slice-itis". So obviously ball spin, side spin especially, really effects my game. At a recent demo day, the Bridgestone guys put me through the little ball fitting they do. They ended up suggesting one of their balls (big surprise). He went through a 30 second explanation about the e7 and how the "mantle" under the cover didnt compress as fast as others, so the spin would be reduced on my drive. Looking at his LM numbers (assuming they were legit) did show a significant drop in spin. 4600 avg with Nike Black to a 2200 avg with the e7.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. is that an accurate description of how and why the numbers dropped?

 

2. how will your ball compare for a hacker like myself?


Driver:  :nike-small:  Nike Covert 2.0 Tour KK 70g Stiff

Fairway Wood: :nike-small: Nike Covert 2.0 Tour KK 60g Stiff
Hybrids:   :nike-small: Nike Covert 2.0 Tour KK Stiff

Irons:    :taylormade-small: R-11s KBS Stiff. 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small:  Cleveland 588 Rotax  56*

               Some no name 60* I got at Goodwill for $5

Putter::  :ping-small: MGS Ketsch Special Edition   

Ball: :bridgestone-small: :e7, normally. If not, whatever I found while looking for mine in the Tall Grass
Bag :Birdies for the Brave Org.14 Desert Camo 

Shoes : Oakley Cipher 2

                 Addidas Adizero One Wd

                 Nike Lunar Control

                 6 other pair "just in case"

 

Founder: Texas BBQ Curtain (according to Jdiddyesquire)

 

Favorite #TOURSAUCE Move:  signing a ball and tossing it to a non existent fan as I walk back to cart. 

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This is a great thread.

 

Dean,

 

I am afflicted with what doctors have called "Terminal Slice-itis". So obviously ball spin, side spin especially, really effects my game. At a recent demo day, the Bridgestone guys put me through the little ball fitting they do. They ended up suggesting one of their balls (big surprise). He went through a 30 second explanation about the e7 and how the "mantle" under the cover didnt compress as fast as others, so the spin would be reduced on my drive. Looking at his LM numbers (assuming they were legit) did show a significant drop in spin. 4600 avg with Nike Black to a 2200 avg with the e7.

 

So my questions are:

 

1. is that an accurate description of how and why the numbers dropped?

 

2. how will your ball compare for a hacker like myself?[/quote

Haha. There is no chance that your driver spin can drop from 4600 to 2200 because of a golf ball. Impossible by construction unless you tested using a tour balata ball first. You have to be a bit careful on those ball fitting numbers. Typically they have you hit only 3 shots. And not saying they all do this but have seen many pick your highest spinning ball and then their lowest spinning ball. And bam. There u go. Look. It's longer. When players slice golf balls that typically means higher driver spin. So you may have hit one real bad slice that counted then one decent one that counted. Those two could easily be 2400 apart. Most golf balls today are made w low driver spin. And most go similar distances off the tee. If you has that big of a difference then it was from the swing not the ball. As for Snell Golf ball, I would suggest GET SUM. It is very soft feel but made to try to reduce spin on all shots. To help reduce the hooks and slices. Of course it is not magic and will never remove them from your game. Haha. But give GET SUM a try. Look forward to what you think. Thanks.

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I have been experimenting with the super low compression balls such as Wilson Duo, Callaway Supersoft Hogan Edge & Maxfli Softfli.....for the most part, they have performed admirably over the winter months.....Now that the weather has warmed up a bit (80's) I look back into my bag for my Pro V1x's, Kick X Tour and MG C4's......That said, I have read some nice things about the Snell ball.   What can you say that will convince me to try the Snell ball?

 

since you mentioned Kick X, I thought I'd mention that I read an article the other day that noted how Titleist is suing the manufacturer due to patent infringement. Titleist claims that Kick X (which is part of the Medicus family) has copied the dimples on their balls. If you've seen any of the Kick X ads lately on the Golf Channel, you'll notice that Kick X no longer shows the names of the balls that it supposedly outhits - instead they just show ball A, ball B, etc.

 

As for the balls I'm currently using, I prefer the Nicklaus Blues, which are designed for those hitting off the regular tees vs. bcd tees or senior tees. Excllent ball, and I get the same distance that i do with a ProV. They're $28 a dozen, plus any donation you like to make to your favorite charity. On certain days, I feel a yellow ball is easier to see, so I tee up a yellow Bridgestone RX.   

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I have heard some comments on the yellow... we may look at that for the GET SUM product, but it is very tough to do with cast urethane covers.. this cover is extremely to manufacture, and if any mistakes are made they are scrap.. most of the yellow balls on the market today are mostly ionomer or surlyn type covers, or some thermoplastic urethane.. but not the cast urethane covers.

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My wife, who is a decent player and has been playing for 50 years, will only play the Srixon Z-Star yellow balls, and has for several years.  Seems strange that she likes the Z-Star but not a ProV1.  I like them both.  I'm sure that the Z-Star is probably not the best fit for her swing speed, but she's tried other balls and can certainly feel the difference.  In the winter when it is cold, she will play the yellow Bridgestone Lady Precept for the softer feel.  BTW, she hates the Q-Star yellow.  


We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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My wife, who is a decent player and has been playing for 50 years, will only play the Srixon Z-Star yellow balls, and has for several years.  Seems strange that she likes the Z-Star but not a ProV1.  I like them both.  I'm sure that the Z-Star is probably not the best fit for her swing speed, but she's tried other balls and can certainly feel the difference.  In the winter when it is cold, she will play the yellow Bridgestone Lady Precept for the softer feel.  BTW, she hates the Q-Star yellow.  

The yellow ionomer or surlyn types balls are doing alittle better in the marketplace.. today we estimate it to be alittle under 10% of the market... we will continue to look at colors in these types of golf balls... the GET SUM ball is very low compression and very soft, so this ball would fit into the types she likes to play... thanks..

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Dean - you may wish to check out another thread that was started under equipment.  It has to do with the new push towards softer balls.

 

In case you don't make it over there I'll ask here.  Beyond feel what is the advantage to a softer ball or most specifically the softer balls that are currently being marketed?  I've been playing golf for 45 years and even though I was a very good player I was never a balata guy.  Cost/value plus distance gains for the wound surlyn covered balls kept me out of the balata market most of the time.

 

So, I'm wondering about he benefits of softer.  I have used a Pro VIx type ball for the past 7 or 8 years.  Honestly I prefer a little firmer feel because its what I've played all my life.  I hit that ball type a bit longer than the Pro VI type or clearly longer than the midline type balls (5-7 yards.)  I get adequate green side spin so that I can play the shots that I'm most accustomed to there.

 

Knowing those things what might be the benefit of a softer feel?


Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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I ordered a dozen Snell My Tour Ball and they just walked in the door! It has been raining hard (1.3 inches since midnight) and it has now quit. That's 20% of our annual rainfall! By the time I get to the course in an hour, the course will be fairly dry. I will be playing 2 balls tee to green for 9 holes; the My Tour Ball and my current gamer; MG Tour C4.

 

Let's see what you got Dean.

 

Review posted in Review: Snell- My Tour Ball thread.

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We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Dean - you may wish to check out another thread that was started under equipment.  It has to do with the new push towards softer balls.

 

In case you don't make it over there I'll ask here.  Beyond feel what is the advantage to a softer ball or most specifically the softer balls that are currently being marketed?  I've been playing golf for 45 years and even though I was a very good player I was never a balata guy.  Cost/value plus distance gains for the wound surlyn covered balls kept me out of the balata market most of the time.

 

So, I'm wondering about he benefits of softer.  I have used a Pro VIx type ball for the past 7 or 8 years.  Honestly I prefer a little firmer feel because its what I've played all my life.  I hit that ball type a bit longer than the Pro VI type or clearly longer than the midline type balls (5-7 yards.)  I get adequate green side spin so that I can play the shots that I'm most accustomed to there.

 

Knowing those things what might be the benefit of a softer feel?

good topic.  I posted this answer on the softer feel thread as well:

Interesting topic here.  I remember when I started in R&D, tour balata was the ball of choice... alittle confession here, although the balls said 90 and 100 compression on them, they were really much lower.. some of them even in the 70's...but back then, if someone said 80 compression, it was considered a ladies ball.. then comes the EV extra spin.. SD90.. HP2 Tour...Noodle.. all of these balls stared to push 2-pc firm distance balls into the lower, softer compression.. so the compression labels came off the boxes and we stopped talking about them.  Wound balata balls would spin like crazy.. I remember tour players actually using 6 and 7 degree drivers to try to keep the spin down. but boy did they love the feel... they felt that they could control the ball better.. that it stayed on the face longer...which it did... then we did Professional.. wound ball with first cast urethane cover.. compression increased to mid 80 and low 90... but spin dropped with drivers so they went further.. so players gave up a little feel for more distance.. then comes PROV1... even lower spin off driver so again longer... and compression creeps mid 90.. B330, Callaway HEX Rule 35, prov1x.. all come along and again push compression up to around (and some over) 100... so slow process over 10 years to have players give up on the preferred feel to gain the distance.. now today, distance is pretty much max'd out.. we are at the limits for ball speed.. for overall distance.. and tour balls and 2-pc balls have around the same spin rates.. so therefore they all go about the same distance.. the days of 30 yards gains are gone.. so technology has allowed us to make cores softer and softer without losing ball speed... used to be if compression of cores were softer, the speed was slower.. but we have new technology used today that can have 50 compression cores be same speed as 90 compression cores.. and the lower core compression helps lower the spin rate... so feel is on its way back to the discussions...I do not ever think the tour balata feel will come back... lots of golfers today have never experienced this level of feel at all.. and for tour players that I have work with do not want it to be that soft.. they think if real soft, then in their mind, shorter in distance..  for the 2-pc low compression balls listed in this thread, I would make sure you test these out on the short game.. low compression 2-pc balls have a tendency to feel softer, but have very low spin.. so around the greens where most need spin to help stop the ball, these balls will be the lowest and tend to roll out more... so, long story (sorry for that) short, feel is very subjective from player to player... find something that you prefer along with the performance, not just the feel..and test them from 100 yards and in.. where you play most of your golf... do not worry about swing speed and compression.. they all go around the same distance off the tee.. 

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Thanks - this is what I thought - I'll comment over on that other thread. 

 

I do have another question here - How about the three piece vs. four or five or even six piece balls.  What are the performance differences there.  I notice your tour ball is a three piece one and I believe that is also true of my B330 RX - I hit your ball a couple of times the other day BTW - nice spin around the green - I'm looking forward to giving it a full go round soon.

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Ping G410 - set at 12 degrees, fade setting - Fujikura Motore X R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood

G30 6-PW -  Aerotech FT 500 shafts

SCOR 48,52,56,60

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

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Thanks - this is what I thought - I'll comment over on that other thread. 

 

I do have another question here - How about the three piece vs. four or five or even six piece balls.  What are the performance differences there.  I notice your tour ball is a three piece one and I believe that is also true of my B330 RX - I hit your ball a couple of times the other day BTW - nice spin around the green - I'm looking forward to giving it a full go round soon.

We use layers in designing balls to obtain a specific target.. some may be for firmer feel, some may be for long iron spin, some form ball speed, and some for spin.. so 3, 4, and 5 pc balls all have a specific design target in mind... lets say for instance you wanted to have a ball that has a firmer feel on shots, but need to add spin... then we would use the different layers to use materials that would give firmer sound, but another one to give elastic behavior to control spin.  Another example is soft.. if someone wanted it softer in feel, but keep spin controlled, the materials may be a bit slower in speed... so sometimes we would add a layer to help boost the ball speed a bit... each design is different, and layers are used to try to tie the whole design into one golf ball..

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We use layers in designing balls to obtain a specific target.. some may be for firmer feel, some may be for long iron spin, some form ball speed, and some for spin.. so 3, 4, and 5 pc balls all have a specific design target in mind... lets say for instance you wanted to have a ball that has a firmer feel on shots, but need to add spin... then we would use the different layers to use materials that would give firmer sound, but another one to give elastic behavior to control spin.  Another example is soft.. if someone wanted it softer in feel, but keep spin controlled, the materials may be a bit slower in speed... so sometimes we would add a layer to help boost the ball speed a bit... each design is different, and layers are used to try to tie the whole design into one golf ball..

 

 

I note that Maxfli sells a 6 piece ball....the U6.   what is the target consumer for this ball?

 

 

U6HowItWorks_CutOut.png


Driver: Tour Edge Exotics EXS w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft Fairways:  Cobra King F8 3W(14.5*) & 5W(18.5*) w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft Hybrids: Tour Edge CBX 119 4H(22*)  with Project X Evenflo regular shaft Irons: Wilson Staff D7 5 - PW w/Recoil 460 regular shafts Wedges: Wilson D7 GW(48*) & SW(54*) Cobra King F8 LW(58*)all wedges have Recoil 460 regular shafts Putter: 33" Bellum-Winmore 707 putter Bag: Cobra Ultralite Cart Bag(Peacoat Blue).

 

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I note that Maxfli sells a 6 piece ball....the U6. what is the target consumer for this ball?

Looks like they are talking about an inertia story here. Where moving weight outside slows down the spin decay. A lot of golf balls on the market shift the weight a bit into the mantle and cover layers. It is a balance that we work to control. Too much weight on inside is no good and too much way outside can also be no good.

 

 

U6HowItWorks_CutOut.png

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I note that Maxfli sells a 6 piece ball....the U6. what is the target consumer for this ball?

Looks like they are talking about an inertia story here. Where moving weight outside slows down the spin decay. A lot of golf balls on the market shift the weight a bit into the mantle and cover layers. It is a balance that we work to control. Too much weight on inside is no good and too much way outside can also be no good.

 

 

U6HowItWorks_CutOut.png

 

sorry about that.. .looks like I answered this in the wrong area.. anyway, Looks like they are talking about an inertia story here. Where moving weight outside slows down the spin decay. A lot of golf ballson the market shift the weight a bit into the mantle and cover layers. It is a balance that we work to control. Too much weight on inside is no good and too much way outside can also be no good. 

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I don't really have a question at all.  Just wanted to thank Dean for his participation.  Very interesting read.  I personally am a huge fan of the golf ball.  I have played 5 tournament rounds to this point with the ball and its performance has been excellent.  I am often asked about the ball and am happy to share were to go and purchase.  Many people converting at my club.  Thanks for the participation Dean.

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Driver:         TaylorMade M5 9^, Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6X

3 Wood:      Tour Edge Exotics CBX T3 15*,  Mitsubishi Diamana White 70X

3/5 Hybrid:   Titliest 816 H2  19*and 23*, Mitsubishi Diamana White 80X
Irons:           TaylorMade P790 6-PW, Dynamic Gold SL S300
Wedges:      Ping Glide 2.0 60,55,50 Dynamic Gold Wedge Shaft, Callaway PM Grind 64, KBS 610 Wedge
Putter:          TaylorMade Juno,  34" with P2 Reflex Putter Grip

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I don't really have a question at all. Just wanted to thank Dean for his participation. Very interesting read. I personally am a huge fan of the golf ball. I have played 5 tournament rounds to this point with the ball and its performance has been excellent. I am often asked about the ball and am happy to share were to go and purchase. Many people converting at my club. Thanks for the participation Dean.

Thank you for the support and glad you like the performance of the golf ball. I enjoy the education part of the game and glad to share any experience I can.
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