Jump to content
2 Weeks Remaining: MODERATOR WANTED Join the MyGolfSpy Staff! Read more... ×

Recommended Posts

I became interested in how the golf swing works about 15 years ago when I retired. I started with books, then started downloading videos of pro swings and then Research papers from University academics from all over the world. What I discovered was that nobody in the world, including the manufacturers of golf clubs knows how the swing works. There are millions of opinions, but very few provable facts. What this means is that the whole Golf Industry is based on uncertainty and some philosophers may say that is a good thing. I am a golfer who wants to know how it works even if I can't do it. I would like to know why I am not as good as the pro who hits the ball 300 yards. What does he have that I don't and what does he know that I should be able to learn.

I started using computer modelling techniques 7 or 8 years ago as a way of understanding the swing, because I knew the answer must be in physics, not in individual opinions. Using these modelling techniques I believe I have discovered a number of new mechanisms that start the process of understanding what happens in the 250 milliseconds when a pro can accelerate the clubhead from zero to 120 mph. If we understand what happens, then I believe all golfers  should be able to learn how to do it, or why they can't do it. The "BIG PICTURE" is that in the last 100 years the handicap profile of golfers has not changed. All the hype about equipment has had no influence on the handicap profile of golfers.

I am aware that a model is only as good as the assumptions that go into building the model. What I need to assess now is  whether the model is telling me a truth about the swing.  Today I am introducing the RYKE effect which is what I believe happens at release. It is a piece of physics that has not previously been understood or described, which I believe is fundamental to understanding why pros play a different game to most of us. You can help me to assess if the RYKE effect is what happens when you release during the golf swing.

To introduce the RYKE effect I would ask you to watch these two videos:



This is a presentation that I gave to the World Science Congress of Golf in September last year. It takes about 15 minutes.



This is a short video that repeats the RYKE effect many times so that you can see what is happening.

The questions I have are: "Can this piece of physics be applied to release in the golf swing?". "What do you feel or experience at release?" . "Does knowledge of the RYKE effect help explain release?"

I look forward to any comments or questions you may have.


Kevin Ryan
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is pretty cool. 

 

My question to maybe a teaching professional would be how to take this model and put it into an effective teaching method? 

 

What does the RYKE effect FEEL like (sorry I'm very much a feel player) during the swing so that one can try and replicate it.

 

Thanks for all your hard work. Very interesting stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Severtheties,

 

I am glad you think it is cool. When I first saw it on the computer model my eyes poped out. I am finishing off a book. I have been doing many experiments with my own swing to develop a teaching method so that it should be possible to learn how to do it.

Because it is an effect of physics, not muscle, it feels a bit wierd. The clubhead releases so fast with very little effeort. As I get better at doing the RYKE effect I still get a surprise at how the ball flies. It is for this reason I want to find out what other golfers feel when release happens.

 

Kevin Ryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off Kevin, let me say that your presentations are impressive. You're obviously a smart guy and a deep thinker. I say this sincerely and honestly. How does anyone come up with all this research and then a presentation like you've provided? I scratch my head. I'm not a fraction of that deep into the swing. I'm probably what you might call practical. I study swings and take lessons and practice and play. In general I try to emulate what I see that works and apply that to my own body and athletic ability. Over the course of 40+ some odd years I've gotten much better than when I began. Since I turned 50 I've somewhat noticed a slight decline in the way my body responds. I'm now 60. Today I don't have as much speed and as a result I've lost distance. But I adjust. That's one of the beauties of this game.

 

 

As for the swing itself there are many ways to effectively hit a golf ball and play quite well. We've all seen them. Some are just scary looking but somehow that guy shoots par all day every day. My swing is reasonably good for my age and experience. It could be loosely defined as a "classic" model. Personally I don't give a hoot about all the research and such. Just show me how to do it and I'll get it. Eventually. Honestly, if I were take a lesson from an instructor and he started going all Carl Sagan on me I'd be frustrated and go elsewhere. My head would explode. LOL

 

 

Here are just a few things I think works and you must process.

 

 

1. Have a decent amount of natural athleticism. 

 

2. Start young. (as possible)

 

3. Get good instruction.

 

4. Practice.

 

5. Play often with people that are better than you.

 

6. Have a competitive nature.

 

7. Don't be a quitter.

 

8. Play as much as your circumstances will allow.

 

9. Practice.

 

10. Read books, articles, videos, etc.

 

11. Try to control your mind and emotions.

 

12. Gamble (even with yourself)

 

13. Keep statistics

 

14. Practice.

 

15. Own equipment that fits you.

 

16. Enjoy the game. Your game.

 

17. ??

 

18.......

 

 

Is your model telling a truth about the swing? I don't know. For me the truth about the swing is what goes on the card at the end of my round. When I'm swinging well my score is low or lower. It's an easy day on the course. When I'm not swing well it's a 4 hour whipping. Perhaps it's just one of those days regardless of the outcome. Perhaps if I studied your research I might improve. Perhaps If I practiced more and better I might play better. Perhaps if I was still 35 I'd play better. In fact I know I would play better if I was 35 again. How about a Time-Machine Kevin. Now that's something I could latch onto.

 

 

Thanks again for you studied research and sharing with us. You're a true Fellow of the game in my opinion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So.... is this RYKE angle achieved by holding your arms out farther from your body during the swing?

Similar thought or question.  It seems as it is as simple as having your hands lower throughout and having the greater angle of arm relative to club?  I know that has been a lesson point for me in the past and I know that the truly bad golfers address and hit the ball with a virtual straight line from shoulder to the ball (witness Chris Berman at the ATT Pro am).  Is that then the true "secret of golf"????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PlaidJacket,

 

Thanks for the complements. Your post shows that golf is a great game. I played today as I do 3 times a week. I love the small side bets. I love the uncertainty of not knowing what is going to happen next. I love the competative chit chat. I love the beer at the 19th. Everyone can take something from every round. But I also know that there is an Everest to be conquered. We know very little about how and why the swing works and why a 5 foot tall young girl can hit a ball further than you or I who have been playing for 40 or 50 years. At 72 years old today I hit a few drives that were longer and straighter than I ever hit when I was 30. I hope I am uncovering truths about the swing and not kidding myself. I get encouraged that I might be on the right track when I hit a few longer drives or chip and pitch shots that check and back up. That's why it is such a great game: we can all approach it in different ways.

 

Kevin Ryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jaxbeachpackerfan and Silver and Black,

There is no simple secret to golf. Certainly holding hands low is part of the puzzle. As I was writing the section on the downswing it took 12 pages to explain my understanding of the physics mechanisms that are in play in the quarter of a second of the downswing. What I am trying to get golfers to understand with the RYKE effect is that one of the fundamental truths is that wrist release ( hammer action) is wrong and that forearm rotation with a RYKE angle is how the best golfers swing a club. That is the starting point. I hope to be able to contribute in a small way to develop techniques that everyone can use, but we have to understand what is happening first.

 

Kevin Ryan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a couple of questions.  I'm far from a scientific kind of guy. I see in your swing model that it consists of one "arm". We all use two arms. Which arm does your model represent if we are right handed? How does the other arm affect this swing/RYKE angle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Handicaps haven't changed over the years because hitting range balls and playing golf are two entirely different things. If you want to be a great striker of the ball, work on your swing, beat balls at the range all the time, and when you're on the course facing a full 8 iron into a green with a perfectly flat lie and the ball sitting up chances are you'll get a green in reg, not necessarily a birdie, but chances are you'll hit the green and maybe make a par. If you want to be a great golfer, you still need to practice, but you have to play a ton!

 

Too many instructors teach people how to hit range balls and try to "fix" their swing or preach their method. Not enough instructors teach people how to play better golf. Unfortunately 9 out of 10 instructors are extremely guilty with this for beginners. They want to learn how to play golf, not hit range balls!

 

Congrats on introducing another "method" for hitting golf balls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that a different "method" is what is being presented here, as much as a different take on what the swing truly is and what happens during it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

jaxbeachpackerfan and Silver and Black,

There is no simple secret to golf. Certainly holding hands low is part of the puzzle. As I was writing the section on the downswing it took 12 pages to explain my understanding of the physics mechanisms that are in play in the quarter of a second of the downswing. What I am trying to get golfers to understand with the RYKE effect is that one of the fundamental truths is that wrist release ( hammer action) is wrong and that forearm rotation with a RYKE angle is how the best golfers swing a club. That is the starting point. I hope to be able to contribute in a small way to develop techniques that everyone can use, but we have to understand what is happening first.

 

Kevin Ryan

 

Ok, I think I understand and can appreciate what you are talking about.  So, now the key question--what have been you been doing to implement this into your previously amateur swing?  Are there drills, tips, concepts?  Very interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a couple of questions.  I'm far from a scientific kind of guy. I see in your swing model that it consists of one "arm". We all use two arms. Which arm does your model represent if we are right handed? How does the other arm affect this swing/RYKE angle?

The model uses the left arm so it is a right hand swing. When we build models we try to get down to the simpliest version of what is being modeled. If we assume that the left arm is straight during the swing then it is valid to only model one of the arms that are producing the forces on the club. If we then move the arm in a particular direction we can then determine where the forces or torques are coming from. So we can infer what the right arm is doing. I have currently identified at least four actions that the right hand and arm must do in order for the RYKE effect to happen. That is why it is so difficult to achieve, and why I am still working on developing the drills that are necessary to make it happen.

 

Kevin Ryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that a different "method" is what is being presented here, as much as a different take on what the swing truly is and what happens during it?

Your wording of a "different take on what the swing truily is" best describes what I am finding and at the moment the physics and biomechanics can't yet describe what happens. So physics and biomechanics have to catch up with how pros swing. If we can do that then we can develop the methods to make it happen.

 

Kevin Ryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Kev, seems to me what you are talking about is forearm rotation as well as wrist pronation.  Hogan talked about pronation and supination in his book and teaching.  From my point of view the pro's do it better and more efficiently than we amateurs hence their different game.  I know when I get it right my swing and the moves I make are much more efficient and I hit the ball better with way less effort sometimes up to a club difference in distance.

 

I have found that there seems to be a big reluctance on the part of teaching pros to talk about forearm rotation for some reason even when asked direct questions about it they seem to run for cover as if you just asked if they are having sexual relations with their sister.  Very bizarre. I have been working on forearm rotation myself of late because in the past I have tried to limit the amount of FR because of what I had read about the evils of rotating the club face in the back swing.  I guess if you take it to extremes that sort of rotation is bad but if you allow the club to rotate along with the natural forearm rotation in your back swing it opens and closes like a door swinging on its hinges.  Also centrifugal force helps the club face square up at impact as the wrist pronates as well.  I can remember Leadbetter and Faldo talking a bit about it back when Faldo was King and I saw a video recently where Leadbetter was talking about the A swing he is developing for amateurs who are unable to devote a lot of time to practise.  He also talks about forearm rotation which seems to be at the heart of the RYKE affect.

 

I really have no idea if I'm even close to what you are talking about but that seems to be what it is about from my point of view.  I look forward to hearing more and reading your book when it comes out.

 

Cheers

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always taken issue with the model of a linear double pendulum because it doesn't account for the rotation part of the equation.

 

Where I think people get that rotation wrong in their actual swing sometimes is they over or under do it. They under do it with an over the top move where they've learned they have to hold off the club or they'll hit a big pull every time. But then they're slicing.

 

They can over do it by picturing 180° of rotation with their forearms in relation to their body, but don't consider that their body is rotating at the same time. Add the two together and it's too much.

 

I would guess based on what I feel, the forearm rotation is roughly 120° in relation to the shoulders? That's really just a guess not based on any measurements. Have you studied that to put a number range on it?

 

Honestly though, while your model is an improvement on the double pendulum, it's not a new revelation to golf theory to put your name on. Some have adopted the double pendulum for it's relative simplicity to model. I've never put much stock in it because it's using a two dimensional movement to model a three dimensional movement. It can't fully accomplish it. But there's plenty of teaching that includes that rotation. If your back shoulder doesn't turn through, you'll run out of arm which will pull on the club, prevent that release, and make for a slice for example.

 

But good job on the model. It's the best rendering I've seen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Kev, seems to me what you are talking about is forearm rotation as well as wrist pronation.  Hogan talked about pronation and supination in his book and teaching.  From my point of view the pro's do it better and more efficiently than we amateurs hence their different game.  I know when I get it right my swing and the moves I make are much more efficient and I hit the ball better with way less effort sometimes up to a club difference in distance.

 

I have found that there seems to be a big reluctance on the part of teaching pros to talk about forearm rotation for some reason even when asked direct questions about it they seem to run for cover as if you just asked if they are having sexual relations with their sister.  Very bizarre. I have been working on forearm rotation myself of late because in the past I have tried to limit the amount of FR because of what I had read about the evils of rotating the club face in the back swing.  I guess if you take it to extremes that sort of rotation is bad but if you allow the club to rotate along with the natural forearm rotation in your back swing it opens and closes like a door swinging on its hinges.  Also centrifugal force helps the club face square up at impact as the wrist pronates as well.  I can remember Leadbetter and Faldo talking a bit about it back when Faldo was King and I saw a video recently where Leadbetter was talking about the A swing he is developing for amateurs who are unable to devote a lot of time to practise.  He also talks about forearm rotation which seems to be at the heart of the RYKE affect.

 

I really have no idea if I'm even close to what you are talking about but that seems to be what it is about from my point of view.  I look forward to hearing more and reading your book when it comes out.

 

Cheers

You are certainly understanding the point I am trying to make. It has long been considered by Golf Science that it requires muscular effort to shut the clubface for impact and we hear talk from instructors about controlling the clubface. The RYKEeffect model shows that by pushing a double pendulum off its plane, release is all about forearm pronotion and not wrist release. It is that fundamental to understanding how the swing works. Physics shuts the face: not muscle. If we can produce the sideways force, at the right timing, to push the double pendulum off its plane, then wrist release stops and forearm pronotion takes over and shuts the face. I am assuming pronation means forearm rotation with a firm left wrist and no collapse of the wrist.

 

Like you, the more I learn how to feel the effect, the faster the clubhead speed with very little effort. I am also finding that you need to fully rotate your forearm -90° backwards in the backswing to ensure that it can release 180° in the downswing.

 

Kevin Ryan

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always taken issue with the model of a linear double pendulum because it doesn't account for the rotation part of the equation.

 

Where I think people get that rotation wrong in their actual swing sometimes is they over or under do it. They under do it with an over the top move where they've learned they have to hold off the club or they'll hit a big pull every time. But then they're slicing.

 

They can over do it by picturing 180° of rotation with their forearms in relation to their body, but don't consider that their body is rotating at the same time. Add the two together and it's too much.

 

I would guess based on what I feel, the forearm rotation is roughly 120° in relation to the shoulders? That's really just a guess not based on any measurements. Have you studied that to put a number range on it?

 

Honestly though, while your model is an improvement on the double pendulum, it's not a new revelation to golf theory to put your name on. Some have adopted the double pendulum for it's relative simplicity to model. I've never put much stock in it because it's using a two dimensional movement to model a three dimensional movement. It can't fully accomplish it. But there's plenty of teaching that includes that rotation. If your back shoulder doesn't turn through, you'll run out of arm which will pull on the club, prevent that release, and make for a slice for example.

 

But good job on the model. It's the best rendering I've seen.

The double pendulum model gives golfers the completely wrong impression of the golf swing. That is, that wrist release is used to hit the ball. The RYKEeffect is a three dimensional version of a more complicated double pendulum (two joints not one) that shows that if you get the forces timed correctly then it is forearm rotation that hits the ball, not wrist release.

I think you are correct that good instructors understand the 3D nature of the swing, but to my knowledge the RYKEeffect model is the first science based attempt to show what happens in the downswing and for that reason it is important.

 

Kevin Ryan.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The double pendulum model gives golfers the completely wrong impression of the golf swing. That is, that wrist release is used to hit the ball. The RYKEeffect is a three dimensional version of a more complicated double pendulum (two joints not one) that shows that if you get the forces timed correctly then it is forearm rotation that hits the ball, not wrist release.

I think you are correct that good instructors understand the 3D nature of the swing, but to my knowledge the RYKEeffect model is the first science based attempt to show what happens in the downswing and for that reason it is important.

 

Kevin Ryan.

Since I haven't seen another model similar to yours, I have to agree. I do think the wrists unhinging is part of the equation though. That action is increasing club head speed dramatically.

 

I also agree that it and the rotation are not something you muscle through the ball. As long as you don't throw the club head away too early, it will happen. You just have to move with it to avoid hindering that action.

 

Keep at it. It's interesting and far more realistic than the linear double pendulum I've seen used over and over.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I haven't seen another model similar to yours, I have to agree. I do think the wrists unhinging is part of the equation though. That action is increasing club head speed dramatically.

 

I also agree that it and the rotation are not something you muscle through the ball. As long as you don't throw the club head away too early, it will happen. You just have to move with it to avoid hindering that action.

 

Keep at it. It's interesting and far more realistic than the linear double pendulum I've seen used over and over.

Your comments that "wrists unhinging" and "That action is increasing club head speed dramatically" are certainly the common understanding of the golf swing. If you look along the bays of a driving range, that is what you see. Everybody is trying to "unhinge" faster.

I have come to the conclusion that this is a very significant mindset problem that we have. I would like to encourage any handymen out there to build a model of the wrist. I built this model a few years ago to try to understand how the wrist works in the golf swing.

 

The video forced me to rethink about "unhinging" and more about "forearm rotation" in the downswing and what you need to do to promote the forearm rotation rather than the unhinging of the wrist. Is the model correct? Biomechanics specialists may disagree and provide a different view of how the wrist works. I think this is the central question to be answered before we fully understand what happens in the downswing.

 

Kevin Ryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      75,440
    • Most Online
      2,247

    Newest Member
    SuperSpeed Golf
    Joined
  • Exo Putters   11 members have voted

    1. 1. Which Model of the EXO Putters would YOU play?


      • Seven
      • Rossie
      • Indianapolis

    Please sign in or register to vote in this poll. View topic
  • HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

  • Popular Contributors

  • Recent Status Updates

    • tommc23

      Dang shotguns got too many of them they are just laying around now lol
      · 0 replies
    • warbirdlover

      Older then dirt
      · 0 replies
    • Jaredchadd

      Where do i fill out "what's in my bag"?
      · 1 reply
    • Mitchdpg

      Avid 3-4 handicap golfer, product tester, always tinkering and trying to get better. 
       
      · 0 replies
    • MWGolf23

      Next steps to my road to improvement
      Current
       Adding the Mizuno MMC FliHi 4 iron to the bag once it comes it to replace my hybrid. The hybrid has too significant of a draw bias, not terrible, but I also draw the ball naturally already, and will probably go in and out of the bag, but I'm looking for better shot shaping with the FliHi and have that 210 to 225 distance into the green and off of the tee. Working on my putting. I'm rolling the ball nicely now with a slightly open stance with my current putter. I have another putter that I can get the ball rolling online, but the pace is off. Future step is to actually get fit for a putter. Working on my natural tempo and swing speed for the driver to have more consistent drives. See below for more info. Next
      Driver shaft optimization. Not looking for a new head yet. I like my 2017 M1 460. Interested in the journey of testing some shafts. Right now my shaft is determining what kind of shot I can do. Slower speed and tempo than my natural speed and tempo. This has lead to a great deal of inconsistency of trying to find the "magic speed and tempo" and I know that isn't the way to go. Swing speed training. I'll have multiple shafts at this point so I can game whatever is best fitting me as I go along. And I can always swing a little slower or club down to hit a fairway. Future
      Get fitted for a putter > get fitted for a driver/shaft and woods from a high level, reputable company willing to discuss numbers and takes the time and right approach. Open to custom shafts and not just from the OEM cart like at a Golf Galaxy. I have only been fitted to a driver once, but didn't purchase as I did not like the experience, small selection of shafts, and I wasn't swinging my natural speed and tempo like I should have.  
       
      · 0 replies
×